Penn St sanctions

[Carl Spackler]

The death penalty would have been easier.

and it would have been more effective in creating the desired cultural change.

http://blog.pennlive.com/davidjones/2012/07/penn_state_football_is_a_53_mi.html

 

[cardfan]

I'm intrigued by all the concern expressed for the athletes, the "innocents." While it's admirable, it also opens up the road to "don't punish the perpetrator because the innocent will get hurt." (DUI - "But I'm the bread winner. I need my car so I can earn enough money.")

There are always innocents hurt by the unethical and illegal actions of the few - who was/is worried about the Catholic nuns, teachers and students who've had schools and parishes closed because of the fines the Church has been forced to pay? Not everyone was "guilty" in the financial fiasco. Not everyone was guilty in the drug trials lies. Not everyone was guilty in the mortgage mess. But, the ramifications impacted an exponential number of people.

Seems to me we're taking more care of these folks -- because they're athletes -- than we are of the other folks, thereby continuing the culture of "Sport as King."

nailed it, sistah.

 

[Carl Spackler]

On the football board, about a week ago, I was in-depth discussion with a fellow named 'upstater'. We talked a lot about how to change a culture, from an external point of influence.

There are two ways to change a culture, from an external point of influence. One is peacefully, through discussion, through communication. THe other is forcefully, through the exertion of force against will.

This is truth in our reality. I referenced a man I know, Eric Greitens, and his book: The heart and the fist. Eric is a Duke grad. An Oxford university Rhodes scholar. Greenpeace humanitarian having spent time in eastern europe and africa, and an enlisted man in the Navy that advanced through OCS, became and officer, and is a multiple tour of combat veteran.

There is a time for compassion, for peaceful methods to create change. Going through the heart. And there are inevitably, times, when the exertion of force, and using the fist is the only way.

The culture of Penn State, is one of those cases, where the exertion of incredible, and swift force, was the only way to create lasting change.

This long, drawn out, and most of all - NEGOTIATED - course of action, is the worst thing that could happen.

SInce when, does a person or group get to negotiate punishment for transgressions?

So ducked up, in so many ways.

The NCAA may have screwed this up more than they did in 1986. We will see.

THe only hope, is that the intellectuals, gain enough power, very quickly. But I don't see it.

Go get Greitens' book, and read it. The heart and the fist.

Eric's existence, and the existence of a man like Sandusky, to me - and for you Icebear, a man of the cloth, is proof positive, that there is good and evil, absolutely.

The principle of never harming an innocent person? not absolute. Very few, are able to enter that realm.

and the NCAA leadership, is not that few.

 

[Icebear]

and it would have been more effective in creating the desired cultural change.

http://blog.pennlive.com/davidjones/2012/07/penn_state_football_is_a_53_mi.html

I doubt that it would make a difference if you read David Jones as I do and I read him regularly. The greatest problem is correcting the system failures that enabled this to happen, not punishment. Even the death penalty would solve nothing because their are always fiefdoms to be protect unless the systems are in place to prevent it? Destruction does not guarantee better systems even if it may enable and require the necessity. It is, also, vastly different in Sub -Saharan Africa or Croatia where the conditions already were collapsed. Essentially, it is Freidmanite economics applied to social change.

 

[JS]

SInce when, does a person or group get to negotiate punishment for transgressions?

Umm, since every plea bargain ever negotiated in criminal cases, and every out of court settlement of civil lawsuits.

The problem with your apparent ideal of swift, overwhelming exterior force is that it requires justice and clear thinking, not just a satisfaction of blood lust or a need for public posturing.

In this context, the just, swift external hammer you posit would require a deity to wield it fairly and wisely -- an all-knowing judge/executive who can gauge just how much collateral damage is "acceptable," how much will in fact occur, and what well-defined, clearly desirable result will follow.

That deity is not the NCAA.

 

[msf22b]

My biggest problem with the settlement is the chaos surrounding the freedom of players to go elsewhere and the unseemly recruiting now going on. Its beneath low-class and actually have the opposite effect of what was intended: for a large segment of the team and many recruits to leave.

 

[OneTrickPony]

My biggest problem with the settlement is the chaos surrounding the freedom of players to go elsewhere and the unseemly recruiting now going on. Its beneath low-class and actually have the opposite effect of what was intended: for a large segment of the team and many recruits to leave.

Sorry, can't talk now...on the phone with the Alumni Club!

 

[Icebear]

I fully understand, JS, but I , also, thought it might interest some and help them understand how I am addressing our community here in central PA since they have already heard extensively my other thoughts here. I offer it not because I expect anyone to throw themselves full being into being suddenly a particular faith but more as an example how within my work I speak to that community that this board and the world is watching from the outside.

 

[Kibitzer]

There is an old saying that comes to mind:

"Every saint has a past. Every sinner has a future."

 

[SubbaBub]

My biggest problem with the settlement is the chaos surrounding the freedom of players to go elsewhere and the unseemly recruiting now going on. Its beneath low-class and actually have the opposite effect of what was intended: for a large segment of the team and many recruits to leave.

It's having the exact effect that was intended, weaken the FB program. Winning makes that difficult. Every sanction, cash, scholarships, bowl ban, free agency, were designed to downgrade the quality of FB in hopes that people stop caring about it.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Icebear]

The problem with the manner in which the freedom of players to go elsewhere is that is not exactly what it has turned out to be. Instead it has become let teams go into Penn State's lockerroom and recruit the kids directly.

Every kid should have the freedom to choose to leave. It is a difficult but can be an honorable choice. It is chaos to tell other programs you can recruit them. Especially, schools like USC whose football programs have played so fast with the competitive rules in the past.

 

[Carl Spackler]

My biggest problem with the settlement is the chaos surrounding the freedom of players to go elsewhere and the unseemly recruiting now going on. Its beneath low-class and actually have the opposite effect of what was intended: for a large segment of the team and many recruits to leave.

Welcome to the world of college football. Dirty, cut throat business where your reputation is all you got, where only a handful of programs have actually reached out personally, to O'Brien, with the common courtesy to let him know they're coming and for who, while the rest of the programs in the country simply had their recruiters travel plans in the works by 9:30am on Monday, and have recruiters parked in the lots outside the football buildings right now, waiting for players to exit buildings so they can throw scholarships offers at them, and start their sales pitches. Nothing that is happening with recruiting at PSU right now is unexpected from what the NCAA handed down, and PSU leadership agreed to.

IF this was really about the integrity of academic institutions, of teaching young people to do the right things, the PSU football program would either be shut down entirely, or playing all their games away this year..... all of those current and incoming football players would have been granted another year of sports eligibility, and only retain their academic scholarship this year, if they remained at PSU, and not be eligible for a scholarship at any other institution this year..... The intent to "protect the innocent football players", is only teaching every one of those kids, and their families and friends, that sports is king, and not school, and will only strenghten the us against the world mentality for the culture of PSU,while the people in that culture, that really need to be pushed to change, aren't changing. Unintended consequences - but most definitely predictable and avoidable.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Umm, since every plea bargain ever negotiated in criminal cases, and every out of court settlement of civil lawsuits.

The problem with your apparent ideal of swift, overwhelming exterior force is that it requires justice and clear thinking, not just a satisfaction of blood lust or a need for public posturing.

In this context, the just, swift external hammer you posit would require a deity to wield it fairly and wisely -- an all-knowing judge/executive who can gauge just how much collateral damage is "acceptable," how much will in fact occur, and what well-defined, clearly desirable result will follow.

That deity is not the NCAA.

FWIW, I wasn't nearly as much in favor of shutting down football at PSU, until I learned how deep and widespread the corruption of that leadership at that university goes, and I'm pretty sure it's lawyers that plea bargain in criminal cases, and not the criminals themselves.

Now, I hope I"m wrong. I hope I"m very much wrong, and that all the actions taken have the desired outcome. I highly doubt it though. Icebear's initial reaction, I've read, is that the death penalty would have been easier to deal with. He's right. What I hope I'm proven wrong about, and time will tell, is that the death penalty very well may have had the intended consequences as well, while these measures do not.

The college football world, if you think it's dirty now, you should have seen it in the 1980s, after the television market and television dollars was opened to winning programs, by the Supreme Court in an anti-trust lawsuit found against the NCAA.

THe penalty that SMU got, most definitely worked in creating the desired change, and the rampant corruption of the late 1980s is no longer part of college football. THe problem, is that the NCAA went way too far in 1986.

This situation in 2012, is entirely different. It's not that they've haven't gone far enough, but that they've drawn it out, for so long.

 

[JS]

I'm pretty sure it's lawyers that plea bargain in criminal cases, and not the criminals themselves.

No difference. The lawyers represent the criminals and act with their consent.

You can be sure lawyers cut this deal too. Like plea bargains and civil settlements, it's essentially a game of chicken about taking what you can get versus rolling the dice by letting the court or jury decide.

 

[Carl Spackler]

No difference. The lawyers represent the criminals and act with their consent.

You can be sure lawyers cut this deal too. Like plea bargains and civil settlements, it's essentially a game of chicken about taking what you can get versus rolling the dice by letting the court or jury decide.

Alright, bad choice of words and analogy on my part. BUt the whole thing stinks. A bunch of university presidents sitting around, and negotiation with another university president about a football program. Spanier was part of the whole structure until recently.

The NCAA failed miserably at this, and the leadership at PSU did the best they could to protect the culture they've built up in central PA, and to me that means the culture, that the NCAA so despeartely wanted to change, isgn't going to, and will only grow back stronger.

And innocent people suffer along the way anyway.

I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Icebear]

FWIW, I wasn't nearly as much in favor of shutting down football at PSU, until I learned how deep and widespread the corruption of that leadership at that university goes, and I'm pretty sure it's lawyers that plea bargain in criminal cases, and not the criminals themselves.

Those lawyers do it on behalf of those the represent. I doubt that PSU was without legal representation in their interactions with the NCAA.

Carl, please explain to me how widespread you think this was at PSU with specifics.

I would guess the particular lack of institutional control at PSU exists within the strcture of numerous universities. It is the type of situation one is unsually not aware of until there is a problem. I would, also, bet you that 35% of American univerisites are not in full compliance with the Cleary Act. I hope that the NCAA has already issued notice to every one of its universities to get themselves in compliance.

Anyone know the procedures at UConn or any of their alma maters for making compliance. Are signs fully posted across campus with phone numbers for reporting incidents of sexual abuse and rape?

 

[JS]

But the whole thing stinks. . . . The NCAA failed miserably at this, . . . And innocent people suffer along the way anyway.

I agree, maybe for different reasons.

I view the NCAA as in the George Zimmerman school of assistance to justice.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Those lawyers do it on behalf of those the represent. I doubt that PSU was without legal representation in their interactions with the NCAA.

Carl, please explain to me how widespread you think this was at PSU with specifics.

I would guess the particular lack of institutional control at PSU exists within the strcture of numerous universities. It is the type of situation one is unsually not aware of until there is a problem. I would, also, bet you that 35% of American univerisites are not in full compliance with the Cleary Act. I hope that the NCAA has already issued notice to every one of its universities to get themselves in compliance.

Anyone know the procedures at UConn or any of their alma maters for making compliance. Are signs fully posted across campus with phone numbers for reporting incidents of sexual abuse and rape?

Oh, boy, there's probablyu 100+ pages of that on the football website icebear. My understanding, is that the BOT at PSU, the board of directors at Second Mile, the state governor, heads of major industry in PA, are all tied together, and it's all corrupt, with little factions of people warring with each other over money and contracts, political clout and elected/appointend positions, and very few people, actually know who's aligned with who, nobody really knows what anybody else is doing, and there's no system of checks and balances, no system of accountability, and the very fact that PSU leadership signed this agreement with the NCAA, and you've got a BOT member quoted in mainstream press as being in teh "dark" about Erickson agreeing to the sanctions. There's a thought process out there, that the entire Freeh report itself, and Spanier's handling of it, was meant to deflect blame for it all from Spanier, and I don't find that to be too much of a conspiracy theory, given Spanier's connections in the government, national defense, and the FBI.

Spanier is probably going to end up really falling hard, but it doesn't seem far fetched to me, that the minions under him, are simply scrambling right now, for the next dictator to rise to power, and nothing changes in the leadership culture, once that leader rises up.

As for the rest of your post, I"m not familiar with life on college campuses in 2012.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I agree, maybe for different reasons.

I view the NCAA as in the George Zimmerman school of assistance to justice.

lost me there. Who's asking for a new judge in this situation?

 

[Kibitzer]

[quote="
I hope I'm wrong.[/quote]

Your wish will likely be granted.

 

[JS]

lost me there. Who's asking for a new judge in this situation?

No one. Like Zimmerman, the NCAA in my view put itself forward, outside its authority, as a voluntary supplement to what the criminal and civil judicial systems could do, and then ended up likely achieving more destruction than good.

You fear they failed to achieve change at Penn State. Much less, I think, will their actions here change things for the better at other major football powers.

The spectacle, whether true or apocryphal, of recruiters in the stadium parking lot dangling scholarship offers out their car windows makes a mockery of the ideal of the student-athlete.

 

[Kibitzer]

Two Norwalkers have received a lot of attention. Silas Redd is committed to attend PSU and he is among the very highest rated recruits in the country. Speculation is about whether he will de-commit.

Khairy Fortt played back-up LB for PSU last year. Some think he will transfer to UConn. I read that some players (and blue-chip recruits like Redd) have been contacted by as many as 30 teams, er, programs.

A tough row for Bill O'Brien to hoe, for sure.

 

[Icebear]

Two Norwalkers have received a lot of attention. Silas Redd is committed to attend PSU and he is among the very highest rated recruits in the country. Speculation is about whether he will de-commit.

Khairy Fortt played back-up LB for PSU last year. Some think he will transfer to UConn. I read that some players (and blue-chip recruits like Redd) have been contacted by as many as 30 teams, er, programs.

A tough row for Bill O'Brien to hoe, for sure.

This is all true, Kib, as to contact with the players. It is part of the chaos presently on campus.

 

[TDiNozzo]

Don't know if it was posted, but "Erickson: PSU faced 4-year death penalty"

 

[JS]

Don't know if it was posted, but "Erickson: PSU faced 4-year death penalty"

Just the type of negotiation some of us imagined. NCAA threatens worse, Erickson says I can't accept that, they hash it out and meet in the middle. All very secretive.

Only thing really surprising is it was so secretive that many of the trustees were kept in the dark and some are now muttering about suing to overturn the settlement as outside Erickson's authority and a bad deal.

Erickson says he consulted general counsel, believed he had the authority. But wow, the trustees of an institution are supposed to be in charge of the money, and all these millions are committed without them being on board or even knowing about it?

Tells you Erickson wanted the deal but knew there'd be crosscurrents on the board. So he, ah, took the ball and ran with it so to speak. What chaos.

Put another way, this was done so rapidly because it was an unusually streamlined process. Both Emmert and Erickson had acquired, or thought they possessed, power to act on behalf of their organizations outside the usual channels and procedures. That's a way to get things done, for sure. Whether they got done right is another matter.

 

[Vowelguy]

The fact that the Trustees think they're in a position to whine and complain is laughable, and shows just how totally, completely, utterly out of touch they are.

Just take your damn medicine and shut up.

 

[Carl Spackler]

No one. Like Zimmerman, the NCAA in my view put itself forward, outside its authority, as a voluntary supplement to what the criminal and civil judicial systems could do, and then ended up likely achieving more destruction than good.

You fear they failed to achieve change at Penn State. Much less, I think, will their actions here change things for the better at other major football powers.

The spectacle, whether true or apocryphal, of recruiters in the stadium parking lot dangling scholarship offers out their car windows makes a mockery of the ideal of the student-athlete.

"Our players are in our building right now and they don't want to leave the building because there are coaches from other schools in the parking lot waiting to see them," said O'Brien,

http://espn.go.com/college-football...-undecided-other-players-get-openly-recruited


Silas Redd is a kid from CT, and USC wants him, badly THere are other kids there from CT, that we want, that we recruited.

THe NCAA and Erickson either knew exacly wht they were doing by lifting the recruiting and transfer rules to these kids, and turning their lives upside down, or they had no clue. Pick your poison. THat this is happening was totally expected by everyong in the football world.

 

[Icebear]

They had no clue like every other bit of this mismanaged event from the start. Both assumed they had power to do things that others within their organizations are saying they didn't, both may lose their own heads over this whole thing be for it is done.

 

[Icebear]

The fact that the Trustees think they're in a position to whine and complain is laughable, and shows just how totally, completely, utterly out of touch they are.

Just take your damn medicine and shut up.

What is laughable is that Erickson acted exacted as Spanier was accused of working, leaving the Trustees out of the loop. If one wants systems fixed and accountable then those in "power" can't bypass them for the convenience of getting things done. That's what the Freeh Report says and is the very basis the NCAA claims as the basis for its actions against PSU.

 

[uconnell]

[quote="Icebear, post: both may lose their own heads over this whole thing be for it is done.[/quote]

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One can only hope.