Patriots, am I the only one... | Page 2 | The Boneyard

Patriots, am I the only one...

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Fishy said:
Aaron Rodgers was complaining that he isn't allowed to inflate the ball to his liking. In his opinion, there should be a minimum inflation level, but not a maximum.

In other words, he's forced to play by the rules.

Tom Brady, however, doesn't feel so inclined.

And therein lies the rub - it's a rule. There is actually a procedure in place to ensure compliance and the Patriots willfully deflated the balls after they had been inspected.

Recap.

There is a rule.

The Patriots know the rule.

The Patriots present balls within the limits of the rule.

The Patriots then break the rule.

It can't be explained away, mitigated or equivocated.

Sorry.
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Assumes fact not in evidence....so no.
 
Like Spack states...I believe this is all about the RBs getting a feel for the ball more that it is for Tom to grip it or Gronk grabbing the ball. Belichek hates RBs fumbling that rock.

I do believe BB knew if the deflation in a game where Blount was needed badly.

Sad that the first week of the Super Bowl preview has been tainted like this and the NL is to blame for allowing the teams to possess the balls.
 
What is clear is that there are two sides to the argument in all these post, the haters on one side and the supporters on the other side with very little middle ground. Each will never convince the other side and each with a ton of speculation. Let's just wait for the NFL findings.
 
ZooCougar said:
Re: The Aaron Rodgers thing. I am assuming you understand the difference between a min and a max psi. So just stop bringing it up. It's not apples to apples.
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If anyone is upset because the Pats wanted footballs inflated below league rules you must be equally upset that another team would want balls overinflated. The claim isn't whether or not the PSI gives you an advantage, it's that you're breaking the rules.
 
Chin Diesel said:
If anyone is upset because the Pats wanted footballs inflated below league rules you must be equally upset that another team would want balls overinflated. The claim isn't whether or not the PSI gives you an advantage, it's that you're breaking the rules.
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Doctoring playing balls is hardly unique to football, you can find it any sport that involves a ball. My guess is the rule dates back decades to the antiquity of pro-football, when teams actually didn't make more money than the GDP of most small countries and some states of the union. Having enough regulation game balls, and having both teams supply them and manage them the way the NFL does, reads to me like a rule that makes sense in tight budget little league sports.

The easy solution for this is that both teams bring balls to the game, they get weighed in, measured and then get put into a random pool that gets drawn from during the game. Somebody's job is going to be to guard the bag so nobody from the Patriots screws around with them.

QB's will be ticked off b/c they won't have the freedom to mess around with the balls anymore - and they can thank Bill Belichik's empire for that.
 
To address the argument that the refs touched the ball after every play etc...

Just a thought and I could be way off here but aren't refs specifically told not to apply pressure to the balls when they handle them so the PSI will not drop throughout the game? If you look at the way they handle the balls, they pretty much cradle them and then underhand the throws (as opposed to coming over the top which necessitates having a firm grip). If the ball was 5-10% softer I doubt you would notice it while handling it this way, especially when your hands are bordering on numb. However, 5-10% softer would definitely make it much easier to catch and hold on to.


As for those puzzled about how big of a deal this has become... the media spends more time talking about football than any other sport seemingly even when the season is over. What the heck do you think is going to happen when a faux cheating scandal happens with 1 game left? Add in the fact that the Pats have been caught cheating in the past and it's a no brainer that this would blow up.
 
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John said:
who thinks this is a bunch of adoo about nothing? I'm not even a Pats fan, and I don't see what the big deal is. I'm trying to dial up some outrage, but all I dial up is that the Colts come off as a bunch of b(tches.
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Cheating defeats the primary purpose of any sport. There should be a severe penalty, regardless of the likelihood that the cheating did not change the outcome of the game As a second offense against the Pats the penalty should be severe. Anyone who was involved in both the past cheating and current cheating (assuming it is proved) should be permanently banned from football. Also, the game should be forfeited. That would send a message that cheating is not allowed - period.
 
Carl Spackler said:
Doctoring playing balls is hardly unique to football, you can find it any sport that involves a ball. My guess is the rule dates back decades to the antiquity of pro-football, when teams actually didn't make more money than the GDP of most small countries and some states of the union. Having enough regulation game balls, and having both teams supply them and manage them the way the NFL does, reads to me like a rule that makes sense in tight budget little league sports.

The easy solution for this is that both teams bring balls to the game, they get weighed in, measured and then get put into a random pool that gets drawn from during the game. Somebody's job is going to be to guard the bag so nobody from the Patriots screws around with them.

QB's will be ticked off b/c they won't have the freedom to mess around with the balls anymore - and they can thank Bill Belichik's empire for that.
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actually, they can thank the b)itches from Indianapolis.
 
ESPN's Adam Schefter is on television reporting some important information regarding DeflateGate.

Per Schefter, the league might be able to release their findings at some point today. He also says that the NFL is sturggling to collect any evidence that the Patriots knowingly affected the football, and that the burden of proof lies with the league to determine guilt. If the league cannot find evidence that the Patriots tampered with the football, then there's nothing that should happen to New England.
 
Oh here we go again. My screen name mentions basketball so I don't understand what a football feels like. Actually, the inflation of a basketball is equally, if not more so, critical in a game. I can assure you that an under or over inflated basketball would result in a player or ref quickly speaking up. Even high school basketball players routinely complain about the game ball within seconds of tip off.

Also, were the Colts using a different ball when on offense or the same ones? I thought that the refs controlled the ball once play started and that at least for the half, each ball would be in use until it needed a swap out. So from series to series weren't they using the same ball most times?
 
Hoophound said:
Oh here we go again. My screen name mentions basketball so I don't understand what a football feels like. Actually, the inflation of a basketball is equally, if not more so, critical in a game. I can assure you that an under or over inflated basketball would result in a player or ref quickly speaking up. Even high school basketball players routinely complain about the game ball within seconds of tip off.

Also, were the Colts using a different ball when on offense or the same ones? I thought that the refs controlled the ball once play started and that at least for the half, each ball would be in use until it needed a swap out. So from series to series weren't they using the same ball most times?
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Colts were using properly inflated balls on offense.
 
Carl Spackler said:
It's not the QB's that's the issue here. THis is similar to the spygate thing. There are things that happen in football, and rules are pushed, but the Patriots clearly go a step beyond with pushing the limits, and they get caught.

When the balls are apparently as deflated as they were, across the board, there seems to be a different purpose than the QB's comfort with the ball.

Think about it.

Try stripping the ball from a running back that can squeeze a ball and dig their fingers in for grip, or stripping the ball from a receiver that's made a catch, or stripping it from a QB that's going down for a sack, when they all can squeeze that pig like a sponge.

I think if someone were to put the time and effort in to do a good statistical study, you'll find that Tom Brady, and the New England Patriot running backs, and receivers do not fumble the ball very much, and you'll probably find that players that have played in multiple teams, fumble less when they are in New England, and if you are really good at statistics, you can probably go back in time and find the point where they started deflated balls regularly for that purpose.
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I would have leaned to agree with your last paragraph. But after watching this Sports Science video, it sounds like the difference in grip force in a properly inflated vs. underinflated ball is not that much. The other concern I had was that Chris Mortenson's reporting indicated officials tested PSI but he didn't report if the balls were underweight. In that video it appears that the difference in weight (related to the number of air molecules) at the given PSI difference would also be very small (the weight of a dollar bill). So now I'm leaning to the side that the any effect outcome on the field would be negligible, probably more of a placebo effect on the QBs / receivers' confidence than anything else. Now despite that, DeflateGate may or may not merit punishment according the the letter of the rule, but for me, without direct evidence of who was responsible, not anywhere near the punishment for SpyGate or BountyGate.
 
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So Bill Belichick the man who knows the rules better than everyone in the league including the refs and has his hand in absolutely everything the Pats do had absolutely no knowledge of underinflating footballs, had no idea about any of the process of the footballs used in games etc.? Does anyone actually believe this nonsense. I think it's pretty clear Belichick is playing dumb because he knows if he admits any knowledge or had a hand in the cheating the NFL hammer would really come down so deny, deny, deny. My guess is Brady will also play dumb and the blame will just rest on the shoulders of the ball boy because obviously the ball boy always operates without Belichick and Brady's say so. Brady might even laugh like he did in his Boston radio interview.
 
I doubt BB had any involvement with this. He has more important FB issues to deal with. That is my pure speculation. Just like your speculation that BB and TB were up too their eyes balls in this. Neither of us know..
 
junglehusky said:
I would have leaned to agree with your last paragraph. But after watching this Sports Science video, it sounds like the difference in grip force in a properly inflated vs. underinflated ball is not that much. The other concern I had was that Chris Mortenson's reporting indicated officials tested PSI but he didn't report if the balls were underweight. In that video it appears that the difference in weight (related to the number of air molecules) at the given PSI difference would also be very small (the weight of a dollar bill). So now I'm leaning to the side that the any effect outcome on the field would be negligible, probably more of a placebo effect on the QBs / receivers' confidence than anything else. Now despite that, DeflateGate may or may not merit punishment according the the letter of the rule, but for me, without direct evidence of who was responsible, not anywhere near the punishment for SpyGate or BountyGate.
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Nice video. That should put to rest the hoops guy referee thing. A ref is not going to notice the difference of a 2lb PSI difference, especially when balls are being rotated in from the opposing team that are regulation. The actual amount of grip that a deflated ball (by 2 PSI from regulation) - apparently people think these balls are flat? Is it enough to have a major effect - measurable? It seems grip strength is different, statistics would have to show that the difference measure in that espn video is actually significant enough to make any conclusions - and otherwise - any effect would be explained be placebo.

There is some observation that supports my hypothesis. I did some digging and the Pats have been among the best in the league in giveaways via fumble since 2006. There is at least one player out there that handled the ball, many times in New England and never fumbled, and went elsewhere, and has fumbled a lot - statistically. It is fact that a QB's personal preference for handling the ball is the driving factor for any doctoring of game balls, but my observational conclusion is basically that Patriots as an organization, somehow began using underinflated balls, and determined that a slightly deflated ball - which Brady probably prefers, gave ball carriers an advantage in securing the ball from fumbling.

A solid research study would show if there is no relationship between ball inflation level and fumbling for the NE Patriots, or if there is.

Either way, the Patriots as an organization have a track record of breaking rules to obtain a competitive advantage, and that is all that happened again here. I feel bad for the pee-on equipment guy that's going to have to fall on the sword for it all.
 
superjohn said:
So Bill Belichick the man who knows the rules better than everyone in the league including the refs and has his hand in absolutely everything the Pats do had absolutely no knowledge of underinflating footballs, had no idea about any of the process of the footballs used in games etc.? Does anyone actually believe this nonsense. I think it's pretty clear Belichick is playing dumb because he knows if he admits any knowledge or had a hand in the cheating the NFL hammer would really come down so deny, deny, deny. My guess is Brady will also play dumb and the blame will just rest on the shoulders of the ball boy because obviously the ball boy always operates without Belichick and Brady's say so. Brady might even laugh like he did in his Boston radio interview.
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First, let me say I'm a Giants fan, not a Pats fan.

But, I disagree with the premise that Belichick knew. I think it feeds in to his "Evil Genius" persona, but it isn't likely. Quite frankly as the head coach he has a million more important things to worry about than to be intimately familiar with the particulars of ball inflation before a game. I'm much more apt to believe that it's a responsibility delegated to equipment managers and such. It's much more likely that Brady is involved than Belichick.
 
mcs333 said:
I doubt BB had any involvement with this. He has more important FB issues to deal with. That is my pure speculation. Just like your speculation that BB and TB were up too their eyes balls in this. Neither of us know..
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So if BB and TB had no knowledge of this, who was doing it and for what reason?
 
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junglehusky said:
I would have leaned to agree with your last paragraph. But after watching this Sports Science video, it sounds like the difference in grip force in a properly inflated vs. underinflated ball is not that much. The other concern I had was that Chris Mortenson's reporting indicated officials tested PSI but he didn't report if the balls were underweight. In that video it appears that the difference in weight (related to the number of air molecules) at the given PSI difference would also be very small (the weight of a dollar bill). So now I'm leaning to the side that the any effect outcome on the field would be negligible, probably more of a placebo effect on the QBs / receivers' confidence than anything else. Now despite that, DeflateGate may or may not merit punishment according the the letter of the rule, but for me, without direct evidence of who was responsible, not anywhere near the punishment for SpyGate or BountyGate.
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I'll have to watch this video when I get home tonight. I mentioned something similar to the test you are describing. How much extra grip does it give a QB? And how much extra RPM does the extra grip provide? Grins and giggles you can perform the test in average weather, wet weather and cold temps to simulate different grip conditions.

The other area I'm really confused as to why it hasn't gotten more publicity is that all the QB's, RB's and WR's who handle the ball wear gloves nowadays which provides way more grip than 1-2 PSI decreases.
 
Did amy one read the quote I posted from the wallstreet journal reporter?? Non of the nfl head coaches think this is a big deal at all. Its like a plyer in the nba taking two steps and then using a jump stop. It's technically 4 steps and the rules say a travel is more than 2. Yet in modern day basketball players take 3-4 steps all the time.
 
Sportsman5 said:
Did amy one read the quote I posted from the wallstreet journal reporter?? Non of the nfl head coaches think this is a big deal at all. Its like a plyer in the nba taking two steps and then using a jump stop. It's technically 4 steps and the rules say a travel is more than 2. Yet in modern day basketball players take 3-4 steps all the time.
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That's b/c they're pissed off they didn't think of it first, and don't want the NFL to change the rules before they can start doing it next season. :-)
 
Chin Diesel said:
If anyone is upset because the Pats wanted footballs inflated below league rules you must be equally upset that another team would want balls overinflated. The claim isn't whether or not the PSI gives you an advantage, it's that you're breaking the rules.
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Wanting to overinflate and actually deflating are two different things.
 
Well, believe it or not, I've done my own experiment, and a regulation football vs. 2lbs PSI under inflated? Nobody stripping the underinflated ball out of my hand.
 
I heard on radio this am Mark Brunnel was given 3 different psi footballs to throw and properly identified each one only by throwing it...if that mean anything.

I couldnt find a link.
 
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Carl Spackler said:
Well, believe it or not, I've done my own experiment, and a regulation football vs. 2lbs PSI under inflated? Nobody stripping the underinflated ball out of my hand.
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Of course you were the only person in the room so....
 
So Troy Aikman disagrees with my thought on level of punishment... he's saying deflating the ball is giving them an advantage and the punishment should be MORE than BountyGate.
 
junglehusky said:
So Troy Aikman disagrees with my thought on level of punishment... he's saying deflating the ball is giving them an advantage and the punishment should be MORE than BountyGate.
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How exactly did it give them an advantage? They played much better in the second half with the properly inflated balls. In fact if anything, I think the Pats felt sorry for the Colts and tried in the first half to make it fairer for the Colts. See what happened in the second half when they inflated the balls? Should have left them deflated, would have been a closer game.
 
It doesn't matter whether or not the advantage was gained. The rule was broken and they wouldn't have broken the rule if they didn't think it would give them an advantage.

I can't believe people are still arguing about the fact they would have won anyway.

That's like arguing that if a school gives $20k to a recruit, they shouldn't be punished if that kid would have committed to that school anyway.
 
If Brady wants the ball at 12.5 psi it was a disadvantage for the lower psi. Maybe that is why he went 9-9 when he got the deflated ball in the third qtr. cant't believe Brunell on everything he says. He also said he like his balls at 13 psi. Why not 12.5 if the lower psi was better to grip. Brunell has an agenda.
 
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