Paige vs Pistol Pete

[Woof 101]

I like the Larry Bird comparison---great vision, passing, and shooting

The other thing she does that is Larry Bird like is knowing where to be when she does not have the ball.
Constantly moving to an open area for a possible shot and also knowing who is going to get the ball from her if she can't get one off. Amazing full court awareness for a freshman.

 

[Fairfield Fan]

I love the PB Pistol Pete analogy!
Both thin, long, and deceptively strong. Both somewhat tall for their position. Pete was 6'5", obviously having no trouble getting his shot off. PB same.
I notice the long strides they both take with the ball in their hands. Shows a wonderful handle, but also court vision that enables them to do so much on the floor in full stride.
I think it is fascinating watching PB learn her role on the team. An 18 year old (?) visibly working to find that perfect balance between scoring and playmaking. Pistol didn't have to do that in college. To me, it's similar to Larry Bird, in that he could have shot every possession and averaged 35 a game, but he was able to find that balance.
I do not know Pistol's pro career so well. He wasn't on National TV so much. Was he ever an "All-Pro" playmaker? I know he was burdened with knee injuries.

You know, I'm going to have to disagree. Yes, Paige is smooth, has a good outside shot, etc. But Pistol Pete Maravich was, IMHO, the greatest scorer in basketball history. Consider that he scored 44 ppg during his three varsity years. He also averaged 44 ppg as a freshman on the freshman team. And that was all before the 3-point line, and before the shot clock. A Wikipedia notation said that a former coach charted all of his shots. He went back and analyzed how many of his shots would have been threes, and determined that if there had been a 3-point line, Maravich would have averaged 57 ppg in college!! And consider how many schools slowed the game down against him- no 24 second clock!

His NBA career was marred by knee injuries, but he still averaged over 24 ppg. I'm sorry, but Paige is no Pistol Pete. He was in a class by himself!

 

[ConwayGmck]

Maravich was a legitimate basketball talent, no doubt. He proved it in the NBA, leading the league in scoring one season. But he was a product of definite hype and opportunity that NO OTHER player will ever experience at that degree in college BB, ever again.

For one, he had his father as his head coach. Press Maravich was so enamored of his own product - his son - that he left what was a success head coaching job at NC State because he wanted his son to be THE core of the program, and the administration, boosters, and major influences in Raleigh would not allow him to.

By "core of the program" I mean Press wanted his team to evolve around Pete - the other players were to defend, rebound the ball, give it to Pete, and then get the hell out of his way. Time and time and time again. Be prepared to mop up when Pete spills anything on the aisle, then give the ball back and then get the hell out of his way again.

NC State wouldn't allow that - wouldn't let the other players and the program devolve into that. It was bigger than any one player.

So Press shopped around the southeast for ANY BB program that was willing to do this, because if they weren't then they weren't getting Pete. LSU was a moribund program with NO success, and they accepted the proposition as much for the press (media, not Pops) and attention it would bring to the program, and the slight notion that it might actually make the program more successful.

Today, EVERYONE talks about the career points Pistol put up in just 3 seasons at LSU, and how NO ONE will ever top that in the same time frame. They are correct. But NO ONE ever mentions the even MORE untouchable record of CAREER FG ATTEMPTS Pete put up in 3 years. He averaged 45 ppg in Baton Rouge, and averaged 35 FG attempts per game as well. He only had a career 44-45% FG % as a Battling Bengal.

Now, there are players EVERYWHERE in MBB every season who average 44-45% shooting. Many who do far better than that. But they will NEVER equal Pistol's offensive outpouring because they will NEVER have a head coach that will tell their teammates, "give the ball to him and get the hell out of his way!!!". Over and over and over, season after season.

The fact that despite Pete's offense at LSU, they NEVER won the SECT, never went to the NCAAT (they did play in the NIT his final season) makes his time at LSU little more than a carnival exhibit. His own team - minus Pistol Pete - shot over 51% from the field the entire 3 seasons he was in college, but he took all the shots.

I watched his final season in the NBA with the Boston Celtics in 79-80. He was teammates with a fuzzy blonde rookie by the name of Bird. He had knee/leg issues in his final years in the pros and it hampered his abilities to being a part-time reserve for the Celtics, but he had a number of games at the end of the season where he led the team in points, had a few 20+ pt games in as many minutes. No razzle-dazzle showmanship, no slick tricks or sleight of hand. Just fundamental basketball execution.

Both he and Dave Cowans were with the team to start the 80-81 season that the Celtics won the Championship against the Rockets, but both were in street clothes dealing with injuries that would ultimately conclude their professional careers.....

 

[npignatjr]

Maravich was a legitimate basketball talent, no doubt. He proved it in the NBA, leading the league in scoring one season. But he was a product of definite hype and opportunity that NO OTHER player will ever experience at that degree in college BB, ever again.

For one, he had his father as his head coach. Press Maravich was so enamored of his own product - his son - that he left what was a success head coaching job at NC State because he wanted his son to be THE core of the program, and the administration, boosters, and major influences in Raleigh would not allow him to.

By "core of the program" I mean Press wanted his team to evolve around Pete - the other players were to defend, rebound the ball, give it to Pete, and then get the hell out of his way. Time and time and time again. Be prepared to mop up when Pete spills anything on the aisle, then give the ball back and then get the hell out of his way again.

NC State wouldn't allow that - wouldn't let the other players and the program devolve into that. It was bigger than any one player.

So Press shopped around the southeast for ANY BB program that was willing to do this, because if they weren't then they weren't getting Pete. LSU was a moribund program with NO success, and they accepted the proposition as much for the press (media, not Pops) and attention it would bring to the program, and the slight notion that it might actually make the program more successful.

Today, EVERYONE talks about the career points Pistol put up in just 3 seasons at LSU, and how NO ONE will ever top that in the same time frame. They are correct. But NO ONE ever mentions the even MORE untouchable record of CAREER FG ATTEMPTS Pete put up in 3 years. He averaged 45 ppg in Baton Rouge, and averaged 35 FG attempts per game as well. He only had a career 44-45% FG % as a Battling Bengal.

Now, there are players EVERYWHERE in MBB every season who average 44-45% shooting. Many who do far better than that. But they will NEVER equal Pistol's offensive outpouring because they will NEVER have a head coach that will tell their teammates, "give the ball to him and get the hell out of his way!!!". Over and over and over, season after season.

The fact that despite Pete's offense at LSU, they NEVER won the SECT, never went to the NCAAT (they did play in the NIT his final season) makes his time at LSU little more than a carnival exhibit. His own team - minus Pistol Pete - shot over 51% from the field the entire 3 seasons he was in college, but he took all the shots.

I watched his final season in the NBA with the Boston Celtics in 79-80. He was teammates with a fuzzy blonde rookie by the name of Bird. He had knee/leg issues in his final years in the pros and it hampered his abilities to being a part-time reserve for the Celtics, but he had a number of games at the end of the season where he led the team in points, had a few 20+ pt games in as many minutes. No razzle-dazzle showmanship, no slick tricks or sleight of hand. Just fundamental basketball execution.

Both he and Dave Cowans were with the team to start the 80-81 season that the Celtics won the Championship against the Rockets, but both were in street clothes dealing with injuries that would ultimately conclude their professional careers.....

You have his fathers direct quote? 45% shooting when always the defenses object to stop him, special defenses, is good. When he played at LSU only 1 team per conference went to the tournament, 16 total, and that would be Kentucky every year.

 

[ConwayGmck]

You have his fathers direct quote? 45% shooting when always the defenses object to stop him, special defenses, is good. When he played at LSU only 1 team per conference went to the tournament, 16 total, and that would be Kentucky every year.

Not sure what you mean about a direct quote - direct quote about what? Then read what you posted: Maravich shot more than 50% of his team's FG attempts every game, and his team converted on a higher %. So opposing defenses object to stop him? He's a guard with sick handles and handles the ball 95% of every game. And yet he shoots more than 50% of his team's total shot attempts every game.

A CBB head coach over the past 30-40 years would bench a player for doing that in ONE game. Would bench a player who converts 50%+ of his shots, for doing that under those circumstances, if his teammates are shooting better.....

 

[hoophuskee]

I love the PB Pistol Pete analogy!
Both thin, long, and deceptively strong. Both somewhat tall for their position. Pete was 6'5", obviously having no trouble getting his shot off. PB same.
I notice the long strides they both take with the ball in their hands. Shows a wonderful handle, but also court vision that enables them to do so much on the floor in full stride.
I think it is fascinating watching PB learn her role on the team. An 18 year old (?) visibly working to find that perfect balance between scoring and playmaking. Pistol didn't have to do that in college. To me, it's similar to Larry Bird, in that he could have shot every possession and averaged 35 a game, but he was able to find that balance.
I do not know Pistol's pro career so well. He wasn't on National TV so much. Was he ever an "All-Pro" playmaker? I know he was burdened with knee injuries.

You can go on youtube and see the 68 pt game. I watched Pistol Pete on TV -- I don't agree with Pistol vs Paige. Paige wants to pass. The Pistol wanted to shoot.

I love your Bird analogy.

The Pistol was 1st team All_NBA twice and 2nd team twice.

The 68 point game that he smoked Knicks- I read someone make mention of Frazier. Frazier was slipping back then. He was no longer an elite defender or elite player and the Knicks weren't very good when he smoked them. The Knicks were a shell of those prior great / or even good teams.

 

[Littlemin]

Not sure what you mean about a direct quote - direct quote about what? Then read what you posted: Maravich shot more than 50% of his team's FG attempts every game, and his team converted on a higher %. So opposing defenses object to stop him? He's a guard with sick handles and handles the ball 95% of every game. And yet he shoots more than 50% of his team's total shot attempts every game.

A CBB head coach over the past 30-40 years would bench a player for doing that in ONE game. Would bench a player who converts 50%+ of his shots, for doing that under those circumstances, if his teammates are shooting better.....

Of course you miss the obvious point that his teammates shot over 50% because he was constantly double and triple teamed leaving his teammates playing 4 on 2 or 3. He also was an excellent passer which provided his teammates easy opportunities.

But to sit and cite stats as an explanation for Maravich as a player is just the ultimate taking stats out of context. His relationship with his father and more to the point, his upbringing, made him what he was. He was raised to be a basketball “showman” from a very early age, and like Todd Marinovich, another player raised by a Dr. Frankenstein father to be nothing but an athlete, he paid emotionally for becoming what he was raised to be. The story in many ways is quite sad.

Quotes of his that maybe offer perspective:

”I got by on talent, that was my fatal mistake.”

“It’s hard when your father’s the coach. Sometimes you don’t know where one leaves off and the other begins.”

”When I arrived, I felt the spotlight shining brightly on me, and I knew the sharks were ready to strike if I did not pan out and prove myself to be the showman and player the college ranks had labeled me to be.”

”Most of my career was negative.”

“I lived my life one way for 35 years, for me. And then the focus came in on what I really was.”

And the one that sums it all up- “My life had no meaning at all. I found only brief interludes of satisfaction. It was like my whole life had been about my basketball career.”

 

[BostonBay]

Pistol Pete was way, way ahead of his time. His creativity was actually looked down upon in the 70's NBA, but look at how the game is being played today. Steph Cury & others are basically copying his approach to the game. He averaged like 24 PPG in an era with no 3-point line. He would have feasted with his shooting ability! 44 PPG at a Division 1 LSU school - that's insane. Its too bad about his body breaking down to soon. But, the guy is a deserved icon today.

Pistol Paige has a similar game in terms of creativity & shooting ability!

 

[Steve UConn72]

Pete was way ahead of his time in his style of play in respect to the NBA. That and the money and publicity he generated as a rookie created resentment among his teammates so that they often froze him out of the offense.

What is often forgotten is that Pete played his entire career with a congenital heart defect. He was missing his right coronary artery that supplys blood to the heart. His skin always looked a bit gray and he was dark around the eyed. In retrospect it is understandable since he had one artery attempting to do the work of two. It was surprising that he could even play basketball.

He died at age 40 of a heart attack while playing pickup basketball with Dr. James Dobson of Focus on the Family. I don't think the defect has been diagnosed prior to his death. For those of you who never saw him play, if you Google "Pete Maravich Highlights," a 2:49 video comes up. Much of it is his scoring, but there are a number of pretty wild assists, not including a behind the back pass to himself.

 

[Steve UConn72]

Of course you miss the obvious point that his teammates shot over 50% because he was constantly double and triple teamed leaving his teammates playing 4 on 2 or 3. He also was an excellent passer which provided his teammates easy opportunities.

But to sit and cite stats as an explanation for Maravich as a player is just the ultimate taking stats out of context. His relationship with his father and more to the point, his upbringing, made him what he was. He was raised to be a basketball “showman” from a very early age, and like Todd Marinovich, another player raised by a Dr. Frankenstein father to be nothing but an athlete, he paid emotionally for becoming what he was raised to be. The story in many ways is quite sad.

Quotes of his that maybe offer perspective:

”I got by on talent, that was my fatal mistake.”

“It’s hard when your father’s the coach. Sometimes you don’t know where one leaves off and the other begins.”

”When I arrived, I felt the spotlight shining brightly on me, and I knew the sharks were ready to strike if I did not pan out and prove myself to be the showman and player the college ranks had labeled me to be.”

”Most of my career was negative.”

“I lived my life one way for 35 years, for me. And then the focus came in on what I really was.”

And the one that sums it all up- “My life had no meaning at all. I found only brief interludes of satisfaction. It was like my whole life had been about my basketball career.”

After retirement (1980), Pete continued to struggle with who he was and a few years later became a born-again Christian. He was quoted as wanting to be remembered for serving Him and not just as a basketball player.

 

[Littlemin]

After retirement (1980), Pete continued to struggle with who he was and a few years later became a born-again Christian. He was quoted as wanting to be remembered for serving Him and not just as a basketball player.

Good stuff, I did not know that, thanks

 

[Alibi Ike]

No 3 PT at that time. He like many top draft picks got drafted by a crummy team. Never got to a good team, Celtics, until injuries had slowed him. Part of his last year 1980.

If there had been a college 3 point shot Pistol Pete would have averaged about 57 points per game.

 

[Alibi Ike]

35 pro games scoring 40+. Team record 29-6

Scored 68 points on the NY Knicks.

 

[Alibi Ike]

It's really not fair to Paige to try to compare her to Pistol Pete.

 

[Essexdave]

Biggest difference is paige’s father isn’t her college coach. Pete was fun to watch and a singular talent but what did he ever win?

 

[BostonBay]

Biggest difference is paige’s father isn’t her college coach. Pete was fun to watch and a singular talent but what did he ever win?

As been stated before, Pistol played on some very bad, expansion teams most of his career. In basketball more than any other sport, its the dominant teams that win titles. Jordan didnt win anything until Pippen, Kobe & Shaq didnt win titles until they played together, Barkley & Ewing had 0 titles. Pistol was named an all-star, all-pro around 5 times - half of his career. That alone shows he was great among his peers.

 

[npignatjr]

Not sure what you mean about a direct quote - direct quote about what? Then read what you posted: Maravich shot more than 50% of his team's FG attempts every game, and his team converted on a higher %. So opposing defenses object to stop him? He's a guard with sick handles and handles the ball 95% of every game. And yet he shoots more than 50% of his team's total shot attempts every game.

A CBB head coach over the past 30-40 years would bench a player for doing that in ONE game. Would bench a player who converts 50%+ of his shots, for doing that under those circumstances, if his teammates are shooting better.....

You used a quote and many speculations of what his father said. I am asking did Press actually say those things?

 

[npignatjr]

As been stated before, Pistol played on some very bad, expansion teams most of his career. In basketball more than any other sport, its the dominant teams that win titles. Jordan didnt win anything until Pippen, Kobe & Shaq didnt win titles until they played together, Barkley & Ewing had 0 titles. Pistol was named an all-star, all-pro around 5 times - half of his career. That alone shows he was great among his peers.

Most of his career on an expansion team. Started on a team of older veterans, who according to an old SI article resented the new kid being "the savior". Older veterans, old school never were open to the flash. They were never going to dethrone the best teams of that era.

 

[Watchdog]

Per game stats for his three years at LSU. Geno wants Paige to shoot more but I doubt he wants her putting up 40 per game..........although she might average 50 points.

Maravich took almost 40 per game, and made 42-44%. Strangely, his FT % wasn't as high as you might expect, and his assist numbers were probably OK when you consider how few shots were left for the rest of the team.........

Per Game

Season	School	Conf	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	FT	FTA	FT%	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS		SOS
1967-68	LSU	SEC	26			16.6	39.3	.423	10.5	13.0	.811	7.5	4.0				3.3	43.8		4.28
1968-69	LSU	SEC	26			16.7	37.5	.444	10.8	14.5	.746	6.5	4.9				3.0	44.2		2.21
1969-70	LSU	SEC	31			16.8	37.7	.447	10.9	14.1	.773	5.3	6.2				2.9	44.5		1.65

 

[CTrefugee]

Skills maybe but never sacrificed or tried to make his team better, Flash and more Flash but forget team building.

Wrong. One of the greatest passers ever.

 

[Steve UConn72]

If there had been a college 3 point shot Pistol Pete would have averaged about 57 points per game.

He only had two years in the NBA with the three point shot, and hit 2/3's of the ones he took. The sample size is small (he hit 10 of 15), but that's pretty impressive. 82% career FT shooter in the NBA, too - better than his college numbers.

 

[BostonBay]

Per game stats for his three years at LSU. Geno wants Paige to shoot more but I doubt he wants her putting up 40 per game..........although she might average 50 points.

Maravich took almost 40 per game, and made 42-44%. Strangely, his FT % wasn't as high as you might expect, and his assist numbers were probably OK when you consider how few shots were left for the rest of the team.........

Per Game

Season	School	Conf	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	FT	FTA	FT%	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS		SOS
1967-68	LSU	SEC	26			16.6	39.3	.423	10.5	13.0	.811	7.5	4.0				3.3	43.8		4.28
1968-69	LSU	SEC	26			16.7	37.5	.444	10.8	14.5	.746	6.5	4.9				3.0	44.2		2.21
1969-70	LSU	SEC	31			16.8	37.7	.447	10.9	14.1	.773	5.3	6.2				2.9	44.5		1.65

It would be interesting if these numbers were adjusted to reflect the overall means at the time. I'm guessing FT & FG percentage were a lot lower 50 years ago (some players were shooting FTs underhanded - not a good technique!).

 

[ConwayGmck]

Of course you miss the obvious point that his teammates shot over 50% because he was constantly double and triple teamed leaving his teammates playing 4 on 2 or 3. He also was an excellent passer which provided his teammates easy opportunities.

But to sit and cite stats as an explanation for Maravich as a player is just the ultimate taking stats out of context. His relationship with his father and more to the point, his upbringing, made him what he was. He was raised to be a basketball “showman” from a very early age, and like Todd Marinovich, another player raised by a Dr. Frankenstein father to be nothing but an athlete, he paid emotionally for becoming what he was raised to be. The story in many ways is quite sad.

Quotes of his that maybe offer perspective:

”I got by on talent, that was my fatal mistake.”

“It’s hard when your father’s the coach. Sometimes you don’t know where one leaves off and the other begins.”

”When I arrived, I felt the spotlight shining brightly on me, and I knew the sharks were ready to strike if I did not pan out and prove myself to be the showman and player the college ranks had labeled me to be.”

”Most of my career was negative.”

“I lived my life one way for 35 years, for me. And then the focus came in on what I really was.”

And the one that sums it all up- “My life had no meaning at all. I found only brief interludes of satisfaction. It was like my whole life had been about my basketball career.”

I think you're taking this entire thread out of its context. I did not see anyone posting to his emotional duress and tribulations over his life, and my above post was certainly NOT in reference to those. As such, I have no argument with your position of the life's toll that being Press Maravich's son and playing basketball under him exacted from Pete. I was responding to the other comments about Pete Maravich's career while a college basketball player, in which several references were in fact made regarding Pete's "stats" at LSU. That is NOT out of context of this thread......

But as to your first paragraph: that gets to one of my points: Pete handled the ball ALL OF THE TIME - he was in effect LSU's PG. He's being double and triple teamed, and the rest of his team is converting at a higher % than he was, and he STILL took more shots alone than the rest of his team. Any other head MBB coach would not have allowed that. Press Maravich demanded that. And winning 20 games is not the ultimate objective for most all college programs - you strive to win the most you can. You strive to win your conference, your conference tournament, to get to and then win the NCAAT. You do WHATEVER it takes to achieve those goals. It seems that there were other goals at LSU during Pistol Pete's days there.....

 

[lne001]

(some players were shooting FTs underhanded - not a good technique!).

Actually it is an excellent technique - see Rick Barry

 

[Littlemin]

I think you're taking this entire thread out of its context. I did not see anyone posting to his emotional duress and tribulations over his life, and my above post was certainly NOT in reference to those. As such, I have no argument with your position of the life's toll that being Press Maravich's son and playing basketball under him exacted from Pete. I was responding to the other comments about Pete Maravich's career while a college basketball player, in which several references were in fact made regarding Pete's "stats" at LSU. That is NOT out of context of this thread......

But as to your first paragraph: that gets to one of my points: Pete handled the ball ALL OF THE TIME - he was in effect LSU's PG. He's being double and triple teamed, and the rest of his team is converting at a higher % than he was, and he STILL took more shots alone than the rest of his team. Any other head MBB coach would not have allowed that. Press Maravich demanded that. And winning 20 games is not the ultimate objective for most all college programs - you strive to win the most you can. You strive to win your conference, your conference tournament, to get to and then win the NCAAT. You do WHATEVER it takes to achieve those goals. It seems that there were other goals at LSU during Pistol Pete's days there.....

Your last two sentences say it all. I would be interested to know how you know that playing the way they did was not doing “WHATEVER it takes” to make LSU the best team it could be record wise? “It seems that there were other goals” makes me believe you have no idea what you are talking about but are just taking stats and building a narrative to fit your view.