Paige vs Pistol Pete

[hoophuskee]

I love the PB Pistol Pete analogy!
Both thin, long, and deceptively strong. Both somewhat tall for their position. Pete was 6'5", obviously having no trouble getting his shot off. PB same.
I notice the long strides they both take with the ball in their hands. Shows a wonderful handle, but also court vision that enables them to do so much on the floor in full stride.
I think it is fascinating watching PB learn her role on the team. An 18 year old (?) visibly working to find that perfect balance between scoring and playmaking. Pistol didn't have to do that in college. To me, it's similar to Larry Bird, in that he could have shot every possession and averaged 35 a game, but he was able to find that balance.
I do not know Pistol's pro career so well. He wasn't on National TV so much. Was he ever an "All-Pro" playmaker? I know he was burdened with knee injuries.

You can go on youtube and see the 68 pt game. I watched Pistol Pete on TV -- I don't agree with Pistol vs Paige. Paige wants to pass. The Pistol wanted to shoot.

I love your Bird analogy.

The Pistol was 1st team All_NBA twice and 2nd team twice.

The 68 point game that he smoked Knicks- I read someone make mention of Frazier. Frazier was slipping back then. He was no longer an elite defender or elite player and the Knicks weren't very good when he smoked them. The Knicks were a shell of those prior great / or even good teams.

 

[Littlemin]

Not sure what you mean about a direct quote - direct quote about what? Then read what you posted: Maravich shot more than 50% of his team's FG attempts every game, and his team converted on a higher %. So opposing defenses object to stop him? He's a guard with sick handles and handles the ball 95% of every game. And yet he shoots more than 50% of his team's total shot attempts every game.

A CBB head coach over the past 30-40 years would bench a player for doing that in ONE game. Would bench a player who converts 50%+ of his shots, for doing that under those circumstances, if his teammates are shooting better.....

Of course you miss the obvious point that his teammates shot over 50% because he was constantly double and triple teamed leaving his teammates playing 4 on 2 or 3. He also was an excellent passer which provided his teammates easy opportunities.

But to sit and cite stats as an explanation for Maravich as a player is just the ultimate taking stats out of context. His relationship with his father and more to the point, his upbringing, made him what he was. He was raised to be a basketball “showman” from a very early age, and like Todd Marinovich, another player raised by a Dr. Frankenstein father to be nothing but an athlete, he paid emotionally for becoming what he was raised to be. The story in many ways is quite sad.

Quotes of his that maybe offer perspective:

”I got by on talent, that was my fatal mistake.”

“It’s hard when your father’s the coach. Sometimes you don’t know where one leaves off and the other begins.”

”When I arrived, I felt the spotlight shining brightly on me, and I knew the sharks were ready to strike if I did not pan out and prove myself to be the showman and player the college ranks had labeled me to be.”

”Most of my career was negative.”

“I lived my life one way for 35 years, for me. And then the focus came in on what I really was.”

And the one that sums it all up- “My life had no meaning at all. I found only brief interludes of satisfaction. It was like my whole life had been about my basketball career.”

 

[BostonBay]

Pistol Pete was way, way ahead of his time. His creativity was actually looked down upon in the 70's NBA, but look at how the game is being played today. Steph Cury & others are basically copying his approach to the game. He averaged like 24 PPG in an era with no 3-point line. He would have feasted with his shooting ability! 44 PPG at a Division 1 LSU school - that's insane. Its too bad about his body breaking down to soon. But, the guy is a deserved icon today.

Pistol Paige has a similar game in terms of creativity & shooting ability!

 

[Steve UConn72]

Pete was way ahead of his time in his style of play in respect to the NBA. That and the money and publicity he generated as a rookie created resentment among his teammates so that they often froze him out of the offense.

What is often forgotten is that Pete played his entire career with a congenital heart defect. He was missing his right coronary artery that supplys blood to the heart. His skin always looked a bit gray and he was dark around the eyed. In retrospect it is understandable since he had one artery attempting to do the work of two. It was surprising that he could even play basketball.

He died at age 40 of a heart attack while playing pickup basketball with Dr. James Dobson of Focus on the Family. I don't think the defect has been diagnosed prior to his death. For those of you who never saw him play, if you Google "Pete Maravich Highlights," a 2:49 video comes up. Much of it is his scoring, but there are a number of pretty wild assists, not including a behind the back pass to himself.

 

[Steve UConn72]

Of course you miss the obvious point that his teammates shot over 50% because he was constantly double and triple teamed leaving his teammates playing 4 on 2 or 3. He also was an excellent passer which provided his teammates easy opportunities.

But to sit and cite stats as an explanation for Maravich as a player is just the ultimate taking stats out of context. His relationship with his father and more to the point, his upbringing, made him what he was. He was raised to be a basketball “showman” from a very early age, and like Todd Marinovich, another player raised by a Dr. Frankenstein father to be nothing but an athlete, he paid emotionally for becoming what he was raised to be. The story in many ways is quite sad.

Quotes of his that maybe offer perspective:

”I got by on talent, that was my fatal mistake.”

“It’s hard when your father’s the coach. Sometimes you don’t know where one leaves off and the other begins.”

”When I arrived, I felt the spotlight shining brightly on me, and I knew the sharks were ready to strike if I did not pan out and prove myself to be the showman and player the college ranks had labeled me to be.”

”Most of my career was negative.”

“I lived my life one way for 35 years, for me. And then the focus came in on what I really was.”

And the one that sums it all up- “My life had no meaning at all. I found only brief interludes of satisfaction. It was like my whole life had been about my basketball career.”

After retirement (1980), Pete continued to struggle with who he was and a few years later became a born-again Christian. He was quoted as wanting to be remembered for serving Him and not just as a basketball player.

 

[Littlemin]

After retirement (1980), Pete continued to struggle with who he was and a few years later became a born-again Christian. He was quoted as wanting to be remembered for serving Him and not just as a basketball player.

Good stuff, I did not know that, thanks

 

[Alibi Ike]

No 3 PT at that time. He like many top draft picks got drafted by a crummy team. Never got to a good team, Celtics, until injuries had slowed him. Part of his last year 1980.

If there had been a college 3 point shot Pistol Pete would have averaged about 57 points per game.

 

[Alibi Ike]

35 pro games scoring 40+. Team record 29-6

Scored 68 points on the NY Knicks.

 

[Alibi Ike]

It's really not fair to Paige to try to compare her to Pistol Pete.

 

[Essexdave]

Biggest difference is paige’s father isn’t her college coach. Pete was fun to watch and a singular talent but what did he ever win?

 

[BostonBay]

Biggest difference is paige’s father isn’t her college coach. Pete was fun to watch and a singular talent but what did he ever win?

As been stated before, Pistol played on some very bad, expansion teams most of his career. In basketball more than any other sport, its the dominant teams that win titles. Jordan didnt win anything until Pippen, Kobe & Shaq didnt win titles until they played together, Barkley & Ewing had 0 titles. Pistol was named an all-star, all-pro around 5 times - half of his career. That alone shows he was great among his peers.

 

[npignatjr]

Not sure what you mean about a direct quote - direct quote about what? Then read what you posted: Maravich shot more than 50% of his team's FG attempts every game, and his team converted on a higher %. So opposing defenses object to stop him? He's a guard with sick handles and handles the ball 95% of every game. And yet he shoots more than 50% of his team's total shot attempts every game.

A CBB head coach over the past 30-40 years would bench a player for doing that in ONE game. Would bench a player who converts 50%+ of his shots, for doing that under those circumstances, if his teammates are shooting better.....

You used a quote and many speculations of what his father said. I am asking did Press actually say those things?

 

[npignatjr]

As been stated before, Pistol played on some very bad, expansion teams most of his career. In basketball more than any other sport, its the dominant teams that win titles. Jordan didnt win anything until Pippen, Kobe & Shaq didnt win titles until they played together, Barkley & Ewing had 0 titles. Pistol was named an all-star, all-pro around 5 times - half of his career. That alone shows he was great among his peers.

Most of his career on an expansion team. Started on a team of older veterans, who according to an old SI article resented the new kid being "the savior". Older veterans, old school never were open to the flash. They were never going to dethrone the best teams of that era.

 

[Watchdog]

Per game stats for his three years at LSU. Geno wants Paige to shoot more but I doubt he wants her putting up 40 per game..........although she might average 50 points.

Maravich took almost 40 per game, and made 42-44%. Strangely, his FT % wasn't as high as you might expect, and his assist numbers were probably OK when you consider how few shots were left for the rest of the team.........

Per Game

Season	School	Conf	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	FT	FTA	FT%	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS		SOS
1967-68	LSU	SEC	26			16.6	39.3	.423	10.5	13.0	.811	7.5	4.0				3.3	43.8		4.28
1968-69	LSU	SEC	26			16.7	37.5	.444	10.8	14.5	.746	6.5	4.9				3.0	44.2		2.21
1969-70	LSU	SEC	31			16.8	37.7	.447	10.9	14.1	.773	5.3	6.2				2.9	44.5		1.65

 

[CTrefugee]

Skills maybe but never sacrificed or tried to make his team better, Flash and more Flash but forget team building.

Wrong. One of the greatest passers ever.

 

[Steve UConn72]

If there had been a college 3 point shot Pistol Pete would have averaged about 57 points per game.

He only had two years in the NBA with the three point shot, and hit 2/3's of the ones he took. The sample size is small (he hit 10 of 15), but that's pretty impressive. 82% career FT shooter in the NBA, too - better than his college numbers.

 

[BostonBay]

Per game stats for his three years at LSU. Geno wants Paige to shoot more but I doubt he wants her putting up 40 per game..........although she might average 50 points.

Maravich took almost 40 per game, and made 42-44%. Strangely, his FT % wasn't as high as you might expect, and his assist numbers were probably OK when you consider how few shots were left for the rest of the team.........

Per Game

Season	School	Conf	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	FT	FTA	FT%	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS		SOS
1967-68	LSU	SEC	26			16.6	39.3	.423	10.5	13.0	.811	7.5	4.0				3.3	43.8		4.28
1968-69	LSU	SEC	26			16.7	37.5	.444	10.8	14.5	.746	6.5	4.9				3.0	44.2		2.21
1969-70	LSU	SEC	31			16.8	37.7	.447	10.9	14.1	.773	5.3	6.2				2.9	44.5		1.65

It would be interesting if these numbers were adjusted to reflect the overall means at the time. I'm guessing FT & FG percentage were a lot lower 50 years ago (some players were shooting FTs underhanded - not a good technique!).

 

[ConwayGmck]

Of course you miss the obvious point that his teammates shot over 50% because he was constantly double and triple teamed leaving his teammates playing 4 on 2 or 3. He also was an excellent passer which provided his teammates easy opportunities.

But to sit and cite stats as an explanation for Maravich as a player is just the ultimate taking stats out of context. His relationship with his father and more to the point, his upbringing, made him what he was. He was raised to be a basketball “showman” from a very early age, and like Todd Marinovich, another player raised by a Dr. Frankenstein father to be nothing but an athlete, he paid emotionally for becoming what he was raised to be. The story in many ways is quite sad.

Quotes of his that maybe offer perspective:

”I got by on talent, that was my fatal mistake.”

“It’s hard when your father’s the coach. Sometimes you don’t know where one leaves off and the other begins.”

”When I arrived, I felt the spotlight shining brightly on me, and I knew the sharks were ready to strike if I did not pan out and prove myself to be the showman and player the college ranks had labeled me to be.”

”Most of my career was negative.”

“I lived my life one way for 35 years, for me. And then the focus came in on what I really was.”

And the one that sums it all up- “My life had no meaning at all. I found only brief interludes of satisfaction. It was like my whole life had been about my basketball career.”

I think you're taking this entire thread out of its context. I did not see anyone posting to his emotional duress and tribulations over his life, and my above post was certainly NOT in reference to those. As such, I have no argument with your position of the life's toll that being Press Maravich's son and playing basketball under him exacted from Pete. I was responding to the other comments about Pete Maravich's career while a college basketball player, in which several references were in fact made regarding Pete's "stats" at LSU. That is NOT out of context of this thread......

But as to your first paragraph: that gets to one of my points: Pete handled the ball ALL OF THE TIME - he was in effect LSU's PG. He's being double and triple teamed, and the rest of his team is converting at a higher % than he was, and he STILL took more shots alone than the rest of his team. Any other head MBB coach would not have allowed that. Press Maravich demanded that. And winning 20 games is not the ultimate objective for most all college programs - you strive to win the most you can. You strive to win your conference, your conference tournament, to get to and then win the NCAAT. You do WHATEVER it takes to achieve those goals. It seems that there were other goals at LSU during Pistol Pete's days there.....

 

[lne001]

(some players were shooting FTs underhanded - not a good technique!).

Actually it is an excellent technique - see Rick Barry

 

[Littlemin]

I think you're taking this entire thread out of its context. I did not see anyone posting to his emotional duress and tribulations over his life, and my above post was certainly NOT in reference to those. As such, I have no argument with your position of the life's toll that being Press Maravich's son and playing basketball under him exacted from Pete. I was responding to the other comments about Pete Maravich's career while a college basketball player, in which several references were in fact made regarding Pete's "stats" at LSU. That is NOT out of context of this thread......

But as to your first paragraph: that gets to one of my points: Pete handled the ball ALL OF THE TIME - he was in effect LSU's PG. He's being double and triple teamed, and the rest of his team is converting at a higher % than he was, and he STILL took more shots alone than the rest of his team. Any other head MBB coach would not have allowed that. Press Maravich demanded that. And winning 20 games is not the ultimate objective for most all college programs - you strive to win the most you can. You strive to win your conference, your conference tournament, to get to and then win the NCAAT. You do WHATEVER it takes to achieve those goals. It seems that there were other goals at LSU during Pistol Pete's days there.....

Your last two sentences say it all. I would be interested to know how you know that playing the way they did was not doing “WHATEVER it takes” to make LSU the best team it could be record wise? “It seems that there were other goals” makes me believe you have no idea what you are talking about but are just taking stats and building a narrative to fit your view.

 

[Fairfield Fan]

If there had been a college 3 point shot Pistol Pete would have averaged about 57 points per game.

And consider what that his 45% field goal percentage included many 3-point field goals, which weren't broken out. I'm guessing that his 3-point percentage was very high, which is all the more miraculous because teams were hanging all over him.

Yes, he did shoot a lot, but he also scored a lot. 44 ppg. And with teams slowing it down constantly. Can you imagine a 44 ppg player today? He/She would be triple-teamed. I don't think it would happen in CBB anymore. And consider that at that time, the very best players almost all remained for four years. So Pistol Pete and LSU were playing against what were almost NBA-quality teams. Not like today, when at most a pro prospect stays perhaps two years at the very most.

 

[Fairfield Fan]

Per game stats for his three years at LSU. Geno wants Paige to shoot more but I doubt he wants her putting up 40 per game..........although she might average 50 points.

Maravich took almost 40 per game, and made 42-44%. Strangely, his FT % wasn't as high as you might expect, and his assist numbers were probably OK when you consider how few shots were left for the rest of the team.........

Per Game

Season	School	Conf	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	FT	FTA	FT%	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS		SOS
1967-68	LSU	SEC	26			16.6	39.3	.423	10.5	13.0	.811	7.5	4.0				3.3	43.8		4.28
1968-69	LSU	SEC	26			16.7	37.5	.444	10.8	14.5	.746	6.5	4.9				3.0	44.2		2.21
1969-70	LSU	SEC	31			16.8	37.7	.447	10.9	14.1	.773	5.3	6.2				2.9	44.5		1.65

Yep, his senior year, he dishes out more than 6 assists per game while STILL scoring over 44 ppg!!! And he's getting to the line 14X per game? So he was essentially being mugged every time he tried to shoot! They were all over him! Truly amazing!!

 

[Steve UConn72]

Per game stats for his three years at LSU. Geno wants Paige to shoot more but I doubt he wants her putting up 40 per game..........although she might average 50 points.

Maravich took almost 40 per game, and made 42-44%. Strangely, his FT % wasn't as high as you might expect, and his assist numbers were probably OK when you consider how few shots were left for the rest of the team.........

Per Game

Season	School	Conf	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	FT	FTA	FT%	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS		SOS
1967-68	LSU	SEC	26			16.6	39.3	.423	10.5	13.0	.811	7.5	4.0				3.3	43.8		4.28
1968-69	LSU	SEC	26			16.7	37.5	.444	10.8	14.5	.746	6.5	4.9				3.0	44.2		2.21
1969-70	LSU	SEC	31			16.8	37.7	.447	10.9	14.1	.773	5.3	6.2				2.9	44.5		1.65

Interesting note: Pete's freshman year (played on the freshman team - no 4 year eligibility then), the varsity was 3-23 in Press Maravich's first season as coach. The next three years (Pete's varsity career) they went 14-12, 13-13 and 22-10 (2nd in the SEC). They went to the NIT (which stood for "Not in Tournament" back then, and maybe still does) and finished 4th his senior year.

 

[CajunHusky]

Interesting note: Pete's freshman year (played on the freshman team - no 4 year eligibility then), the varsity was 3-23 in Press Maravich's first season as coach. The next three years (Pete's varsity career) they went 14-12, 13-13 and 22-10 (2nd in the SEC). They went to the NIT (which stood for "Not in Tournament" back then, and maybe still does) and finished 4th his senior year.

In the Pistol's era the NIT was much more prestigious than it is today. It was a 16 team tournament and the NCAA was a 16 team tournament. Invitations to the NIT were merit based while the NCAA were limited to conference champions and a smaller number of at-large bids.

Even as late as 1970 teams were known to turn down the NCAA to play in the NIT.

P.S. Pete's stats on the JV - 17 games 10.4rb/g 7.3asists/g pts 741-43.6p/g on 45.2%. The JV would play their games as the first game of a doubleheader frequently outdrawing the varsity teams playing the second game.

 

[Steve UConn72]

In the Pistol's era the NIT was much more prestigious than it is today. It was a 16 team tournament and the NCAA was a 16 team tournament. Invitations to the NIT were merit based while the NCAA were limited to conference champions and a smaller number of at-large bids.

Even as late as 1970 teams were known to turn down the NCAA to play in the NIT.

P.S. Pete's stats on the JV - 17 games 10.4rb/g 7.3asists/g pts 741-43.6p/g on 45.2%. The JV would play their games as the first game of a doubleheader frequently outdrawing the varsity teams playing the second game.

You're right. I should have said "some people referred to it as 'Not in Tournament.' " Only one representative from each conference went to the NCAA tournament, and a few "at large/independents." A lot of good teams, especially from the ACC and Pac10 (or was it 8 back then?), ended up in the NIT, which, I think, was held completely at Madison Square Garden.

I think Julius Erving's freshman team outdrew the UMass varsity, too. A good number of the crowd would leave after the first game.

 

[Cecil9]

Watched the Paige highlights in the DePaul game. She reminds me of Pistol Pete. Pete was a scoring machine but he was an amazing passer. I was privileged to see Pete play in a LSU MSST game. He scored over 50 points but what I remember most were those incredible passes he made. Watching the Paige highlights she scored a lot of points but what impressed me were those passes. To me she is Pistol Paige!

If Larry Bird had a daughter . . .