Paige #2???? [merged thread]

[oldude]

So ESPN just came out with their list of the top 25 players in WBB. Much to my surprise, as well as to the surprise of just about every knowledgeable basketball fan, they rate JuJu Watkins #1 and Paige #2. Don’t get me wrong, Watkins is a great player, who will undoubtedly get better, with a realistic opportunity to break Caitlin Clark’s career scoring record.

The ESPN article represents the combined wisdom, or lack there of, by Philippou, Creme & Voepel. Obviously, there is an element of subjectivity to any such comparison. But really, Watkins over Paige?

Let’s look at the numbers. Watkins played about 4 mpg more than Paige, and was one of the leading scorers in the nation, averaging around 27ppg to Paige’s 21ppg. She averaged 7.3 rebounds per game vs 5.2 for Paige, had a slightly better FT % (.852 to .834) and 3 more blocks (56 to 53).

Now let’s look at where Paige has an edge. While Watkins took a whole lot more shots than Paige (763 vs 598), their respective shooting percentages were not even close. Paige shot .530 overall and .416 from the arc. Watkins shot .401 and .319 respectively. Paige has 38 more assists (150 to 112), 8 more steals (86 to 78), 80 fewer turnovers (60 to 140) and 15 fewer personal fouls ( 64 to 89).

As I said, Watkins is a great player. Some day she may be the best women’s player in college basketball. But that day will only occur after Paige heads to the W.

 

[Kaizen]

ESPN list is a garbage. Just for laughing.

 

[Stagnant]

I view Paige and Juju as 1A and 1B this year. I don’t have a problem with either of them being ranked above the other.

I will make the case here for Juju since she is #1 on this list. Between Paige and Juju; who has more growth potential? Particularly growth potential for the 24/25 season. Juju is at least three years younger than Paige. Maybe she is already the finished article and she is done growing and improving? But I understand why basketball analysts would project her making a big leap this year.

 

[oldude]

Some other advanced metrics to chew on. Paige’s True Shooting percentage TS% is .626. Her Effective Field Goal percentage eFG% is .529. Watkins is at .513 and .445 respectively. Again, I would argue that the numbers, as well as the eye test, don’t justify ESPN’s player rankings.

 

[oldude]

I view Paige and Juju as 1A and 1B this year. I don’t have a problem with either of them being ranked above the other.

I will make the case here for Juju since she is #1 on this list. Between Paige and Juju; who has more growth potential? Particularly growth potential for the 24/25 season. Juju is at least three years younger than Paige. Maybe she is already the finished article and she is done growing and improving? But I understand why basketball analysts would project her making a big leap this year.

The rankings do not mention “potential”. They are specifically about the here and now. Time will tell whether or not Watkins will become the better player.

Oh, and by the way. I expect to see the best version of Paige Bueckers that we have ever seen this year, including during her freshman season when she was the consensus NPOY.

 

[topogigio]

Juju is built physically different. She plays like a woman among girls. It’s really splitting hairs between the two!

 

[yhun89]

Full comp of them last year when they faced off:

Paige: 28 PTS 6 AST 3 STL 2 BLK (only 2 TOs)

Juju: 29 PTS 2 AST 1 STL 2 BLK (4 TOs)

Juju is a good scorer. But versatility wise, Paige takes the cake 10 times over. Better passing. Smarter on defense. Better BBALL IQ. Not to mention she shot nearly 10% better than Juju (47% to 38%)

Not to mention Juju played in position. Paige did not. She was forced OOP the whole year and still thrived.

 

[bballnut90]

I'd put Paige comfortably at 1 when you look at her body of work and performance the back half of the season. Juju will be great but I'm not as high on her as others--I thought Hidalgo and Booker were on par with her last year, Juju's scoring was higher as a result of taking a lot more shots than either at a less efficient clip.

Players listed 1-5 will all take on different roles this year which will be interesting to watch. Paige will likely be off ball again but will not play the 4 defensively, Booker/Hidalgo will likely be pushed off ball to pave way for Harmon/Miles to return, and Iriafen will play at SC which operates a very different system than Stanford did. Watkins will also likely get fewer shots with TVO and Iriafen on the roster. Paige's move will likely be the most seamless, the others will all be interesting to watch.

Going deeper on the list, Betts at 6 seems high while Rice down at 22 seems low. I think both are in the 10-15 range. Beers at 23 seems incredibly undervalued. LSU has 3 in the top 20 and solid pieces to fill out the rest of the roster along with a 4x championship coach but seem to be getting overlooked by everyone in the preseason. South Carolina being the heavy favorite to repeat with almost everyone back from an undefeated team just has 2 on the list, at number 16 and 19. Ashlyn Watkins would be on here too (and probably ranked top 10-15) if she was cleared to play this year. I'd also look for Joyce Edwards to make a big impact if her production in exhibition games is any indication of how her season will go.

 

[yhun89]

LSU has 3 in the top 20 and solid pieces to fill out the rest of the roster along with a 4x championship coach but seem to be getting overlooked by everyone in the preseason.

Because they're showing off against NAIA schools? Nobody is going to take that seriously no matter how elite the stats. Unless the rotations looked really good, there's not much to brag about. A championship-winning university against a high school team is what those games were.

 

[Veteran]

Good. Thank you, ESPN. Put a huge chip on Paige Buecker's shoulder at your own peril. This gives her one more huge incentive to hang another banner in Gampel.

 

[DEpup]

Click bait click bait click bait....

And media have never valued efficiency over flash... Rebecca is the only media person who consistently values efficiency.

As UConn fans, we just value different things than everyone else which is why our team has 11 championships. It's a matter of values.

 

[Charliebball]

not that it really matters but 1# is a volume shooter with great physical gifts while #2 is a disciplined shooter/scorer who also has superb passing skills and has worked to become a lockdown defender......I'll take #2 all day long.....

 

[bballnut90]

Because they're showing off against NAIA schools? Nobody is going to take that seriously no matter how elite the stats. Unless the rotations looked really good, there's not much to brag about. A championship-winning university against a high school team is what those games were.

As a team and Final Four threat/title contender they should be taken seriously even if their OOC schedule is garbage. If Smith comes back healthy they match up well with anyone in the country and have one of the most athletic teams.

 

[PacoSwede]

Good. Thank you, ESPN. Put a huge chip on Paige Buecker's shoulder at your own peril. This gives her one more huge incentive to hang another banner in Gampel.

i'd be surprised if paige cares a whit. besides, all the incentive she'll need comes from within.

 

[jdote33]

Juju is built physically different. She plays like a woman among girls. It’s really splitting hairs between the two!

Respectfully, I think Paige is 3rd behind Juju and Hannah Hidalgo. But it's very close. I think the article is sort of a projection article, so it anticpates Juju improving from her first year. I think juju's physical gifts allow her to create her own shot much easier, as well as draw fouls a bit more.

 

[ConnManFan]

Paige suffers from recency bias. To make a Toy Story comparison, Juju is Buzz Light year and Paige is Woody. Sadly, they will both be soon replaced by Forky.

Paige is the player you want if you are looking for ssomeone who will make everyone better. She has never been "sefish" enough to show that she is clearly and obviously the best player of her generation.

 

[UCONNFAN179]

So ESPN just came out with their list of the top 25 players in WBB. Much to my surprise, as well as to the surprise of just about every knowledgeable basketball fan, they rate JuJu Watkins #1 and Paige #2. Don’t get me wrong, Watkins is a great player, who will undoubtedly get better, with a realistic opportunity to break Caitlin Clark’s career scoring record.

The ESPN article represents the combined wisdom, or lack there of, by Philippou, Creme & Voepel. Obviously, there is an element of subjectivity to any such comparison. But really, Watkins over Paige?

Let’s look at the numbers. Watkins played about 4 mpg more than Paige, and was one of the leading scorers in the nation, averaging around 27ppg to Paige’s 21ppg. She averaged 7.3 rebounds per game vs 5.2 for Paige, had a slightly better FT % (.852 to .834) and 3 more blocks (56 to 53).

Now let’s look at where Paige has an edge. While Watkins took a whole lot more shots than Paige (763 vs 598), their respective shooting percentages were not even close. Paige shot .530 overall and .416 from the arc. Watkins shot .401 and .319 respectively. Paige has 38 more assists (150 to 112), 8 more steals (86 to 78), 80 fewer turnovers (60 to 140) and 15 fewer personal fouls ( 64 to 89).

As I said, Watkins is a great player. Some day she may be the best women’s player in college basketball. But that day will only occur after Paige heads to the W.

You do have to acknowledge that Paige plays for a better coach and with better players which can make a difference in assist numbers and shooting percentage numbers. She's not asked to completely carry her team like Juju is. Also, I think the rankings inevitably consider how their respective games will translate to the pros. Both will be successful there, but I would not be surprised if Watkins has a better pro career. She's just more athletic. I think we're all happy we have Paige here, and probably agree she's the more skilled player, but I don't see these rankings as the big surprise you do.

 

[oldhusky]

Potential bulletin board material for three Uconn players in my opinion. Besides Paige, also no Azzi, and I don't think it would be out of the question to include the #1 recruit Sarah in a top 25 list as well. I understand that Azzi may regain that status, but a couple of teams had three in the top 25, and quite a few had two.

It underscores the importance of a second and maybe third star emerging from the pack this year. Some of our other top contenders have that. We have a whole bunch of good players, but the ones most likely to make that leap are Azzi, Sarah, and Jana, and frankly we need a couple of them to do just that to be at the top of the heap this year, which they very well might do.

 

[sun]

IMO ESPN rewarded JuJu for having a more aggressive mindset & for shouldering more of her team's buden towards winning games.
That's understandable & even Paige acknowledged that in pre-season by saying, "No more passive Paige."
For being named #2 Paige will try harder, especially when UConn needs her to step up to win.

Watkins or Bueckers at No. 1? Ranking the top 25 women's college basketball players

LSU, NC State, Notre Dame, South Carolina, Texas, UCLA and USC each put multiple players on our ranking of the 25 best players.

www.espn.com

 

[Just.A.Fan]

As great a player as JuJu is, ESPN is rating her #1 primarily based on last year's performance. They are completely overlooking the fact that she will be playing with mostly a new set of teammates. Her team last year was designed and more importantly willing to play second fiddle happily. Based of USC's recruitment of more talent players for this season, that could be a completely different story.

 

[Kaizen]

ESPN list is a garbage. Just for laughing.

Paige was #1, then ESPN changes her to #2.
In between the change there are no game were playing for both Paige and JuJu. So how does ESPN think JuJu has improved performances than Paige?

 

[hoophuskee]

You do have to acknowledge that Paige plays for a better coach and with better players which can make a difference in assist numbers and shooting percentage numbers. She's not asked to completely carry her team like Juju is. Also, I think the rankings inevitably consider how their respective games will translate to the pros. Both will be successful there, but I would not be surprised if Watkins has a better pro career. She's just more athletic. I think we're all happy we have Paige here, and probably agree she's the more skilled player, but I don't see these rankings as the big surprise you do.

I don't agree with your take abotu pros at all. They spoke of the 2024-2025 season. Nothing about pros.

 

[hoophuskee]

I view Paige and Juju as 1A and 1B this year. I don’t have a problem with either of them being ranked above the other.

I will make the case here for Juju since she is #1 on this list. Between Paige and Juju; who has more growth potential? Particularly growth potential for the 24/25 season. Juju is at least three years younger than Paige. Maybe she is already the finished article and she is done growing and improving? But I understand why basketball analysts would project her making a big leap this year.

agree they are very close. However the reasons they cite in regard to Paige imo shows a combination of some not understanding basketball in combo with I believe at least one of the 3 hates UCONN to their core. I don't make this comment imo lightly. Instead I believe one of them wrote an article that it was a shame a few years ago Stanford lost to UCONN and that Stanford picked the worst time to have their worst game of the season. Nothing was said or it was minimized of UCONN's play impacting Stanford. It seemed the writer was rooting for Stanford. And I believe at least one of them went after Geno pretty hard when Olympic players, former UCONN players, were selected when Geno wasn't even the coach. I wish I could remember other specifics but there was more. I view these type of things as being somewhat a UCONN hater though not literal. And further I believe at least one of them is more suited for h/s analysis in which I rarely had agreed with other things they would say which made me stop reading them.

In regard to best player, I believe (I could be wrong) that the review for top award also includes post season. So whoever leads their team farther in Tourney, unless one players goes almost as far but is off the charts with specific data, the team that wins, the player will get the award. .


So, as you have done with Juju I'll counter with Paige. The NCAA imo doesn't put emphasis on who is the better one-on-one player. And top scorers aren't automatic winners of POY. When you are matched 1 vs 2 vs 3 etc. if 2 players are close, then it comes down to who wins. And imo much to the chagrin of UCONN haters and even some UCONN fans that bend over backwards to downplay UCONN (no way I'm suggesting you.), winning is most important. So, it will come down to who you think will have the most success in the NCAA's if they are close leading into to the Tourney, along with imo Paige has the stronger team, Therefore she'll have :stuffed stats" across the board. If they win, those stats will be just as highlighted as the total points stat. SO, I expect UCONN to be a little better than SoCal which I then have to be believe Paige was key as to why UCONN went farther,


And your point about growth, I'd say even. In part many seniors experience their game taking a big leap throughout the season. And relating to this, Paige hasn't had a full season in which she has worked on her game and strength all summer and played through an entire year since her senior year on h/s to her freshman year. This past year didn’t count because she had to take the summer "easy." As a result, we should see a jump in Paige. Because it loops back to as I've said above is that her team will be stronger too this making things easier for her. to perform. .

 

[JellyBean]

I have zero issue with the current player ranking of these two great college players. Now if they would have listed Paige #7 or #10. Then I would be upset. Right now. Nothing burger.

 

[oldude]

agree they are very close. However the reasons they cite in regard to Paige imo shows a combination of some not understanding basketball in combo with I believe at least one of the 3 hates UCONN to their core. I don't make this comment imo lightly. Instead I believe one of them wrote an article that it was a shame a few years ago Stanford lost to UCONN and that Stanford picked the worst time to have their worst game of the season. Nothing was said or it was minimized of UCONN's play impacting Stanford. It seemed the writer was rooting for Stanford. And I believe at least one of them went after Geno pretty hard when Olympic players, former UCONN players, were selected when Geno wasn't even the coach. I wish I could remember other specifics but there was more. I view these type of things as being somewhat a UCONN hater though not literal. And further I believe at least one of them is more suited for h/s analysis in which I rarely had agreed with other things they would say which made me stop reading them.

In regard to best player, I believe (I could be wrong) that the review for top award also includes post season. So whoever leads their team farther in Tourney, unless one players goes almost as far but is off the charts with specific data, the team that wins, the player will get the award. .


So, as you have done with Juju I'll counter with Paige. The NCAA imo doesn't put emphasis on who is the better one-on-one player. And top scorers aren't automatic winners of POY. When you are matched 1 vs 2 vs 3 etc. if 2 players are close, then it comes down to who wins. And imo much to the chagrin of UCONN haters and even some UCONN fans that bend over backwards to downplay UCONN (no way I'm suggesting you.), winning is most important. So, it will come down to who you think will have the most success in the NCAA's if they are close leading into to the Tourney, along with imo Paige has the stronger team, Therefore she'll have :stuffed stats" across the board. If they win, those stats will be just as highlighted as the total points stat. SO, I expect UCONN to be a little better than SoCal which I then have to be believe Paige was key as to why UCONN went farther,


And your point about growth, I'd say even. In part many seniors experience their game taking a big leap throughout the season. And relating to this, Paige hasn't had a full season in which she has worked on her game and strength all summer and played through an entire year since her senior year on h/s to her freshman year. This past year didn’t count because she had to take the summer "easy." As a result, we should see a jump in Paige. Because it loops back to as I've said above is that her team will be stronger too this making things easier for her. to perform. .

Bingo!