OT - Your reaction to NFL events

[cabbie191]

Minnesota Public Radio this morning had an hour long round table discussion concerning the NFL and the public's reaction, particularly the disconnect between so many people being disgusted and finding their image of the league tarnished, yet still thinking they will continue to watch the product. I think that fits me reaction quite accurately. I'll continue to root for the Pats and Packers and watch them when I can.

Wondering how others are feeling.

 

[ThisJustIn]

The Shield is teflon... Folks enjoy being outraged and horrified but, for better or worse, they 1) don't believe one bad apple spoils the bunch and 2) recognize that there's no way some puny fans are going to put a dent into a multibillion organization.

 

[PalPa]

No change for me. I haven't followed the NFL since they put in the "In The Grasp" rule years ago. I agree with Hall of Fame linebacker "They should make quarterbacks wear skirts". The last time I went to a game was in 1976 at the LA Coliseum (Rams vs Steelers), it was really boring sitting there watching the players standing around chatting during the seemingly endless media time outs.

 

[j66kicker]

Saw an article this morning quoting stats that NFL player arrests are less frequent proportionate to the USA population at large

 

[tomcat]

For me, it is not only that large number of arrests for (in many cases) violent things, but the whole way the NFL organization has reacted to the issue of violence against women. Their default position in the Rice case and then the one in Minnesota is just amazing. I find myself watching less football this year. If it's on TV, say in a restaurant where we're eating, I'll have a look, but I'm not watching it at home at all. Baseball lost me during the various scandals a number of years ago. Now the only time I watch is if the Red Sox make the Series, and even then, my interest is lukewarm. I used to be sort of a Patriots fan. Now, not so much.

 

[UcMiami]

538 did a study of crime in 20-30 year olds and found as one would expect with any upper class group (and NFL salaries are definitely 1% territory) that the arrest rate for NFL players is much lower across all types of crimes. So the real issue is notoriety and publicity as much as the actual offenses - we live in a society that is quite violent and professional athletes have the same problems in similar proportions to the rest of the society in which they exist.
And I find the outrage over the NFL handling of this to be almost artificial - the court system put him in a treatment program. The NFL in effect funded him something like $1M (two games salary) - he admitted he punched his wife, the prosecutor and the NFL and the team had that tape. Did everyone else really actually need to see the punch to get worked up about it?
If it was an individual sport I would stop watching that athlete, on a team sport, I expect the team to police itself and would probably not watch them if they played Rice. But I also don't think someone should never get a second chance.

I do think the outrage is having a positive effect on society at least at the moment, as the attitudes are spreading to different area of society and people who obviously did require a viewing of the tape to understand what domestic violence looks like may actually reevaluate their attitudes. And I hope that is a permanent change.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

As I've said previously, I hold role models (whether they should be or not, they are) to a higher standard and don't really care if they never play again. Otherwise, for the most part, I wish them all well to get their lives back on-track, etc.

I enjoy watching football and root for the Giants, Cardinals and Jets in that order. I'm not caught up in following any individual players (I admit the wife likes Peyton) so, as long as they are punished to whatever is thought acceptable, and efforts are made at prevention, I'm ok.

I think it interesting that they commit crimes in a smaller percent than their peers in the general population - but, as I said above, the standard needs to be high.

I am much more bothered by folks psychoanalyzing Mrs. Rice for defending him and basically saying that - in their opinion - he blew his only chance with her. She may have a complex from his mistreatment, or this could have been a one time issue that he has convinced her will never happen again. And he could be sincere about that (or not). And it might or might not happen again regardless of his sincerity. But we just don't know and I am tired to the gills of folks who act like they do.

 

[ursusminor]

I think it interesting that they commit crimes in a smaller percent than their peers in the general population - but, as I said above, the standard needs to be high.

They are arrested for crimes at a lower rate than the general population. Two very different things. Charges against the rich and influential are far more likely to be dropped, reduced, or just plain never happen in the first place.

 

[rvwsleep]

I'm not surprised by the NFL's reaction to these incidents at all. They're doing what virtually all large organizations do when confronted with a potentially damaging situation. Deny,obfuscate, sweep it under the rug. If the video tape was never disclosed, Rice would be on the playing field tomorrow. There is a report that the owner of the Ravens was told the details of the video months ago. He did what Goodell did, act in the best financial interest of the team and proceed on a course to hide as much as he could from seeing the light of day. Is this really any different than what Wall street firms or religious organizations do when confronted by a possible scandal ?

 

[UcMiami]

They are arrested for crimes at a lower rate than the general population. Two very different things. Charges against the rich and influential are far more likely to be dropped, reduced, or just plain never happen in the first place.

Very true, though I think a bit less likely to happen at the adult level than on college campuses or in small towns in terms of the 'arrest' aspect for violent or drunk and disorderly crimes - court appearances and convictions - absolutely. The other side of it is that the NFL and most other professional sports with a few exceptions are disproportionately black/minority and statistics show that even affluent minorities are arrested at much higher rates than whites for the same offenses.

 

[UcMiami]

I'm not surprised by the NFL's reaction to these incidents at all. They're doing what virtually all large organizations do when confronted with a potentially damaging situation. Deny,obfuscate, sweep it under the rug. If the video tape was never disclosed, Rice would be on the playing field tomorrow. There is a report that the owner of the Ravens was told the details of the video months ago. He did what Goodell did, act in the best financial interest of the team and proceed on a course to hide as much as he could from seeing the light of day. Is this really any different than what Wall street firms or religious organizations do when confronted by a possible scandal ?

I find the Out Side the Lines article from ESPN to be pretty interesting in that respect - the coach reportedly wanted to cut Rice immediately and management overruled him, both immediately and after the exterior video was made available. The coach would presumably be the least motivated by publicity and the most motivated by his own job security (as team performance is how he is evaluated.)
It is also interesting in outlining the public persona of Rice and at least gives some private look at his own reactions after the incident. From outside, this does appear to be aberrant behavior from an otherwise pretty upstanding citizen. It is hard to tell because this is one of those crimes that happens behind closed doors usually. And I was interested to read that the wife's 'apology' appears to have been a ham handed team flack's idea and not actually her statement.

 

[rugbymate]

The violence issues in the NFL are truly alarming however, its not just the NFL that has serious problems. Most sports leagues are plauged with problems along with the music industry, tv and movies industries and lets not forget our elected officials. We seem to have a separate thought process for holding these offenders accountable. Leniency tends to be the rule and, IMO , since they are the very people that young , impressionable fans look up to we should be not only holding them to a higher stander but disciplining them accordingly.
Having said that, many offenders are such young adults who grew up without resources and in many cases a lack of understanding of appropriate behavior. The leagues need to do a better job of training, education and monitoring of its players if it wants behavior changes.
My enthusiasm for professional sports has waned over the years and don't get me started on the lack of accountability of our elected class.

 

[easttexastrash]

One word: disgusted.

 

[cabbie191]

As this thing unfolds, and especially if it has some staying power in the media for a few more weeks, I wonder also to what extent it will impact how colleges in the football power conferences will handle their players. My belief is that FSU has up to this point allowed Winston to skate along with virtually no consequences for what appears to be repeated incidents, and that the one game suspension against Clemson would not have been imposed had there not been all the negative NFL publicity.

 

[Wonkster]

.
Exactly what does society expect when they lionize overmuscled males from high school age up for smashing the living crap out of people for sport, especially when said males add all sorts of chemical decoctions to their bloodstreams?

I've had my fill of all the sanctimonious tut-tutting by everyone in the media. I find them truly annoying.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

The violence issues in the NFL are truly alarming however, its not just the NFL that has serious problems. Most sports leagues are plauged with problems along with the music industry, tv and movies industries and lets not forget our elected officials. We seem to have a separate thought process for holding these offenders accountable. Leniency tends to be the rule and, IMO , since they are the very people that young , impressionable fans look up to we should be not only holding them to a higher stander but disciplining them accordingly.
Having said that, many offenders are such young adults who grew up without resources and in many cases a lack of understanding of appropriate behavior. The leagues need to do a better job of training, education and monitoring of its players if it wants behavior changes.
My enthusiasm for professional sports has waned over the years and don't get me started on the lack of accountability of our elected class.

You have captured it. Especially for athletes, we don't do a good job of training and education - and the sitting of Winston at FSU (regardless of how motivated) while "punishment" needs to be turned into a teaching moment, because he seems to be fast-tracking down an unwise path.

As to elected officials - there is a fellow out here that wants to add a required civics test (the one used for citizenship, actually) as a condition of high school graduation. As we have seen in studies, many younger folks are woefully ignorant of such things. HOWEVER, the funny part, he would resist requiring elected officials to be able to pass the test. Huh????

 

[UcMiami]

.
Exactly what does society expect when they lionize overmuscled males from high school age up for smashing the living crap out of people for sport, especially when said males add all sorts of chemical decoctions to their bloodstreams?

I've had my fill of all the sanctimonious tut-tutting by everyone in the media. I find them truly annoying.

Interestingly, civilization has done this for pretty much as long as records exist. And the chemicals may have changed, but chemicals have also been part of the process about the same length of time - more sophisticated now, but pain deadeners/mind altering drugs date back a long way.

 

[UcMiami]

You have captured it. Especially for athletes, we don't do a good job of training and education - and the sitting of Winston at FSU (regardless of how motivated) while "punishment" needs to be turned into a teaching moment, because he seems to be fast-tracking down an unwise path.

As to elected officials - there is a fellow out here that wants to add a required civics test (the one used for citizenship, actually) as a condition of high school graduation. As we have seen in studies, many younger folks are woefully ignorant of such things. HOWEVER, the funny part, he would resist requiring elected officials to be able to pass the test. Huh????

Agree with this line of comment, but I would go further - it used to be a standard requirement to have a civics class in HS - not only has the requirement disappeared, the classes themselves no longer exist. Additionally, most high schools and junior highs no longer know how to teach history. History classes devolved into 'Amercian Studies' or 'Humanities' classes and between school boards and parents and whatever the serious study of cause and effect in human endeavor has disappeared.
As for the role models stuff - I think you have to take it down to the local level - parents not setting good examples to their kids, communities not setting good examples, churches, coaches, schools, police, etc. We all point to the top - the stars of sports, entertainment, politics - but the top is a reflection of the basic units at home and in the local community.

 

[msf22b]

I imagine that the owner's (despite denials) have already written off Goodell (whose press conference seemed like dead man walking).

They surely have a high-powered search firm sworn to secrecy and are considering an unimpeachable personage with good business skills who could temper the woman's issue in one fell swoop.

Could be Condoleezza is getting ready to pack her bags.

 

[ChicagoGG]

A sad byproduct is that Proctor & Gamble has cancelled a Breast Cancer Awareness program that was to occur at stadiums during the games this season. Since 46% of the NFL fan base is said to be female, it is unfortunate that the NFL's response to domestic violence has caused a sponsor to cancel an event that would have helped that same fan base. Seems inside out to me, since the target audience for the program is also part of the population protesting the domestic violence response. JMO.

 

[HuskyJohn]

Saw an article this morning quoting stats that NFL player arrests are less frequent proportionate to the USA population at large

 

[HuskyJohn]

Kicker's point is well taken. However, we have to be careful when making comparisons using statistics. The average NFL player makes $1.9 million/year while the average salary in the general population is a small fraction of this amount. How does this difference factor in? I don't know except to say that it is most likely not irrelevant.

 

[UConnChapette]

They are arrested for crimes at a lower rate than the general population. Two very different things. Charges against the rich and influential are far more likely to be dropped, reduced, or just plain never happen in the first place.

Sadly, this is very true.

I personally know a woman who was dating a former NFL player and he assaulted her four times. The last time he picked her up by her neck and slammed her head into the wall multiple times. He was arrested and charged with felony strangulation and misdemeanor assault. H pleaded no contest to misdemeanor breach of peace and was sentenced to just two years probation. This despite the fact that the prosecution had a very strong case with pictures of her injuries taken in the hospital. They just choose to accept a plea on a very reduced charge and not to prosecute. She has hired a very high profile attorney and filed a civil suit against him because she felt like this guy did not get the sentence he deserved. I agree with her, and hope she wins a tidy sum from this monster.

What makes it even sadder is that she met another guy and during conversation she told him about the incident to which he said something like "Wow. What did you do to get him so pissed off?" I told her to run as fast as possible from ANYONE who would even hint that she is to blame in being beaten nearly to death. No one deserves to be treated like that. No one. Man or woman, makes no difference. Violence against another person, whether committed by your average Joe or Jane or Mr/Ms star athlete cannot be tolerated.

 

[DaddyChoc]

You have captured it. Especially for athletes, we don't do a good job of training and education - and the sitting of Winston at FSU (regardless of how motivated) while "punishment" needs to be turned into a teaching moment, because he seems to be fast-tracking down an unwise path.

As to elected officials - there is a fellow out here that wants to add a required civics test (the one used for citizenship, actually) as a condition of high school graduation. As we have seen in studies, many younger folks are woefully ignorant of such things. HOWEVER, the funny part, he would resist requiring elected officials to be able to pass the test. Huh????

his "first half" punishment was upgraded to the whole game bue to outcry

 

[UcMiami]

Kicker's point is well taken. However, we have to be careful when making comparisons using statistics. The average NFL player makes $1.9 million/year while the average salary in the general population is a small fraction of this amount. How does this difference factor in? I don't know except to say that it is most likely not irrelevant.

Socioeconomic status definitely changes the equation - the higher the rung of the ladder the lower the crime statistics, but that is also somewhat misleading - the majority of people in the top 10% grew up within the social environment of that 10%, and even if they didn't they were from the next 10%, athletes who attain professional success have a much wider range of origin with a large percentage growing up in much worse environments. Giving a young person $1M does not immediately change that heritage, their friends, or their home life.

 

[UcMiami]

Sadly, this is very true.

I personally know a woman who was dating a former NFL player and he assaulted her four times. The last time he picked her up by her neck and slammed her head into the wall multiple times. He was arrested and charged with felony strangulation and misdemeanor assault. H pleaded no contest to misdemeanor breach of peace and was sentenced to just two years probation. This despite the fact that the prosecution had a very strong case with pictures of her injuries taken in the hospital. They just choose to accept a plea on a very reduced charge and not to prosecute. She has hired a very high profile attorney and filed a civil suit against him because she felt like this guy did not get the sentence he deserved. I agree with her, and hope she wins a tidy sum from this monster.

What makes it even sadder is that she met another guy and during conversation she told him about the incident to which he said something like "Wow. What did you do to get him so pissed off?" I told her to run as fast as possible from ANYONE who would even hint that she is to blame in being beaten nearly to death. No one deserves to be treated like that. No one. Man or woman, makes no difference. Violence against another person, whether committed by your average Joe or Jane or Mr/Ms star athlete cannot be tolerated.

Not a pretty story and I hope she finds a better person and success in court. But this is a problem with our current court system which is truly buried in work - plea deals are the norm for almost every crime and if a defendant can hire a good lawyer who knows how to work the system (and the prosecutor knows will tie the system up in lots of time consuming ways) they will take incredibly lenient pleas just to be able to get to the next case. Rice is a prime example.

 

[meyers7]

I am much more bothered by folks psychoanalyzing Mrs. Rice for defending him and basically saying that - in their opinion - he blew his only chance with her. She may have a complex from his mistreatment, or this could have been a one time issue that he has convinced her will never happen again. And he could be sincere about that (or not). And it might or might not happen again regardless of his sincerity. But we just don't know and I am tired to the gills of folks who act like they do.

I'm completely the opposite. I'm much more bothered by her response (marrying him) than even him. Just boggles my mind. I can understand being pissed off enough at someone that you want to hit them. (You don't do it, self control, but I can understand wanting to). I cannot understand marrying some guy who knocked you out and dragged your body around.

 

[OldAlum]

There is a large amount of a morally bankrupt culture in the NFL. Aberrant behavior is tolerated, expected and even admired among far too many players and others. A friend of mine worked in the front office of an NFL team and was dumfounded by some of the activities and the whole culture.
I don't understand the debate over seeing the elevator tape. It wasn't enough to see him coldly dragging her unconscious body when he admitted he hit her? You actually had to see it?
And whipping a 4 year old bloody is defensible, how?
I can see a concern about not jumping to punishments for unsubstantiated accusations. But when there is obvious physical evidence it is a different story.
The NFL lost me after Michael Vick. He was convicted of systematic, horrific animal abuse . Okay, he served his time and came back to the NFL. What really got me was his peers voting him "comeback player of the year". That should be reserved for somebody overcoming problems not of their making, not for an animal abuser who got caught.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

I'm completely the opposite. I'm much more bothered by her response (marrying him) than even him. Just boggles my mind. I can understand being pissed off enough at someone that you want to hit them. (You don't do it, self control, but I can understand wanting to). I cannot understand marrying some guy who knocked you out and dragged your body around.

Just to be clear - I have no problem with folks thinking she was nuts to marry him, not understanding why she defended him, etc... I have no idea, I hope (and pray for her sake) that it is because this was a one time, out of character, incident that he has learned from. It may not be.

What is bothering me is the folks who think they do understand it in only one way, generally, having to do with feeling she is inferior, thinks she deserved it or whatever along those lines. My argument is simply that we don't know that's the reason, and to say we do presumes way too much.

Just after college graduation I made an abrupt shift from going to graduate school (where I had been accepted) to remaining in the motion picture exhibition business. Some folks said I was afraid of failing in school, some folks said it was because I had a girlfriend at the movie house where I worked, some said it was just a phase and some said it was because I was lazy.

None of them were correct. That's my point. Now we spout it on the internet like we know. We don't, always.

 

[j66kicker]

There is a large amount of a morally bankrupt culture in the NFL. Aberrant behavior is tolerated, expected and even admired among far too many players and others. A friend of mine worked in the front office of an NFL team and was dumfounded by some of the activities and the whole culture.
I don't understand the debate over seeing the elevator tape. It wasn't enough to see him coldly dragging her unconscious body when he admitted he hit her? You actually had to see it?
And whipping a 4 year old bloody is defensible, how?
I can see a concern about not jumping to punishments for unsubstantiated accusations. But when there is obvious physical evidence it is a different story.
The NFL lost me after Michael Vick. He was convicted of systematic, horrific animal abuse . Okay, he served his time and came back to the NFL. What really got me was his peers voting him "comeback player of the year". That should be reserved for somebody overcoming problems not of their making, not for an animal abuser who got caught.

Right - I think your operative phrase is "...who got caught." This reminds me of Clinton Portis, the Washington Redskin (yes, models of political correctness) who said about Vick, "I don't understand what's the big deal - he was just fightin' a couple dogs." (Portis later got noteriety for his comments about Ines Sainz, the attractive female reporter for a Mexican network who complained that she was harassed in the Redskin's locker room: "You know, somebody got to spark her interest, or she's going to want somebody. I don't know what kind of woman won't, if you get to go and look at 53 male packages walkin' around." After this even the Redskins had to [figuratively] resort to duck tape for Clinton).

Ooops - time for Monday night Football!