OT: USA Women's Soccer & Hope Solo

[snowkot]

Another off-topic-topic posted, perhaps ancillary through the lens of interest in an issue around women's sport...

Suspend Hope Solo, fire the USOC heads

Interesting, provocative commentary.

The conversation it would appear goes beyond the sport itself. From preconceived attitudes on domestic violence ("how can a 5'9" woman commit domestic violence on a young 6'9" 240+ pound boy?") to behavioral standards not only for athletes, but for athletes representing their country.

Here's the ESPN piece to which Olberman refers:
http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_...-case-includes-reports-being-belligerent-jail

I was a massive supporter of Solo during the Briana Scurry episode some years back. And granted Keith Olberman can be way out there at times, sometimes farcically so.

However, this time around I personally find his points quite compelling. I wonder where Coach, as an Olympic women's coach would align...

Thoughts?

 

[stamfordhusky]

My thoughts, other than that Keith Olberman is an arrogant jackass, are that this is a he said she said, where no-one knows exactly what happened. I am not a big fan of Solo's general behavior, but I don't see that she can be punished when her two accusers refused to answer questions under oath and when they apparently "lost" the gun that her nephew was threatening her with. Also he admitted to hitting her with a broom handle or some similar object.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Keith, pick on someone of your stature. Oh, wait, pygmy mud wrestling died out two decades ago.

 

[snowkot]

While Mr. Olberman is certainly a polarizing figure, I would have hoped we'd be big enough to look past the messenger to the message.

To be clear, the second link in the original post resolves to a column by ESPN Staff Writer Mark Fainaru-Wada, and includes video of Solo's sister.

 

[Geno-ista]

Olberman is the most small minded jealous nothing of a person. Some people take pleasure in the problems of others. He's the lowest common denominator - IMO.

 

[meyers7]

Solo actually was suspended from the National team for 30 days.

 

[UcMiami]

Solo actually was suspended from the National team for 30 days.

I believe the suspension was for an unrelated matter - giving the keys to a USA van to her husband who was then stopped for driving the van 'under the influence'.

I am a little bothered by the way we expect employers to punish employees for behavior outside the workplace, and especially for behavior that does not lead to prosecution for a crime or an admission of guilt.
Do I think Hope Solo is a good role model - probably not. And it appears she may have some serious demons that she may need some help with. I understand that we want to hold stars to a higher standard than mere mortals, but prejudging is something I find inconsistent with our values.

 

[snowkot]

Previous suspension was unrelated, as per this article:
"A source close to the U.S. women's national team told espnW's Julie Foudy that Solo's suspension was the result of a culmination of things, including her run-in earlier this week with police. Solo was a passenger in a car driven by her husband, former Seattle Seahawks tight end Jerramy Stevens, when he was arrested on suspicion of driving under the influence early Monday morning in Manhattan Beach. Police said Solo was not arrested or detained. The source told espnW that team officials were furious they had to find out about the incident from a TMZ report, not directly from her, and that it happened during camp."

As per UcMiami's response: "I am a little bothered by the way we expect employers to punish employees for behavior outside the workplace, and especially for behavior that does not lead to prosecution for a crime or an admission of guilt."

Fair point and I partly agree, though I think setting the bar at documented / prosecuted criminal activity is too low.

However, an Olympic team represents each country to the world, which I would think would carries with it higher standards of behavior than that of the conventional workplace.

As it relates to this incident - as per the article at the second link above - the case is pending, as the DA persues an appeal of the dismissal on technical terms unrelated to the facts. Meaning prosecution is ongoing, and the case remains active in the courts.

 

[UcMiami]

As it relates to this incident - as per the article at the second link above - the case is pending, as the DA persues an appeal of the dismissal on technical terms unrelated to the facts. Meaning prosecution is ongoing, and the case remains active in the courts.

Which gets into my comment about prejudging.
And another question - what is appropriate punishment if convicted - do you ban her from the USA team for ever, for 'x' number of months or 'x' number of matches. Do you include friendlies or just national competitions. We are currently holding the NFL to higher standards in the court of public opinion than say boxing, do we rank sports above other occupations and based on their gross income or level of popularity? Are we not in some ways abdicating our societal responsibilities in the general population to the commissioners and committees of the various sports?

None of this is simple - we have a number of issues in society that we manage badly partly because they are so complex, and partly because of our cultural indoctrination.

Off on a bit of a tangent - in some cultures violence and especially violence against women was almost unheard of and is still rare. In western society we are only a few generations away from husbands 'ownership' of their wives. An interesting fact is that historically, racial progress in western societies has occurred years/decades before the same progress for women - the vote, first supreme court justice, first president, etc.

 

[meyers7]

I believe the suspension was for an unrelated matter - giving the keys to a USA van to her husband who was then stopped for driving the van 'under the influence'.

I didn't say why.

Yea, I forgot about that one.

 

[CocoHusky]

I agree with Geno-ista in general about Oberman- small minded windbag IMO. In this case Oberman's only original contribution was to call for the firing of the Coach and head of US soccer- I disagree with Oberman.

Based strictly on the police report I believe that a suspension of Hope (perhaps dismissal) from the US team is warranted regardless of the outcome of the legal proceedings. The person (Hope) described in the police report was drunk, mean, demeaning and dangerous & not the kind of person I want representing my country without the realization that there are consequences for such actions. Britt Mchenry was suspended for doing far less than Hope. UC and Snowkot I think there are times when you don't wait for the courts to act. I agree with what the Patriots did in cutting Brandon Spikes even before an investigation was started/completed.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

I think setting the bar at documented / prosecuted criminal activity is too low.

As opposed to? If you are a certified, partying, womanizing drunk do you get to be on the US Ski Team? Just want to get a feel for what kind of thing would cause you to be DQed?

 

[CocoHusky]

Fair point and I partly agree, though I think setting the bar at documented/prosecuted criminal activity is too low.

Please help me with this phrasing. Are you saying punishment or suspensions should only be for documented, prosecuted criminal activity ?
Here are concrete examples Coach lies on a resume-Steve Masiello of Manhattan: Coach has a motor cycle accident with mistress on board and lies about it-Bobby Petrino-no criminal charges filed in either case.

 

[UcMiami]

Coco - and one that hits home 'Coach accused of sexual harassment and sexual discrimination and is retained by national olympic team'.

In your sited examples there is a direct correlation between the behavior - dishonesty in the workplace - and the actions taken. Being drunk, mean, demeaning and dangerous (?) while representing your team/country is one issue and would have been dealt with quite differently I am sure from how the actual situation has been dealt with that took place in private life away from the team.
The reporting on the incident also includes the fact that a broom handle was broken over Hope's head resulting in a possible concussion. Concussions can lead to a wide range of behavioral modifications in the short term and could possibly explain some of Hope's behavior in the immediate aftermath of the altercation. I am not saying it did, but unfortunately as we have been made aware over the last year, not all cops are great people who are adept at defusing tense situations.

 

[snowkot]

Please help me with this phrasing. Are you saying punishment or suspensions should only be for documented, prosecuted criminal activity ?
Here are concrete examples Coach lies on a resume-Steve Masiello of Manhattan: Coach has a motor cycle accident with mistress on board and lies about it-Bobby Petrino-no criminal charges filed in either case.

Was trying to be terse - and in doing so perhaps lost the point.

"Too low" as in unrealistic, not aligned to application in real life . Each place of business has a code of conduct across a multitude of behaviors to which all employees must abide. To cite just a very few among countless others, insubordination to one's direct report, sexual harassment in the workplace, improper use of company products such as e-mail & intant messaging - all of which may result in termination. They are far from illegal, and almost never result in criminal prosecution but are most certainly actionable, justifiably so. Hope that clarifies?

As it relates here, as difficult as it appears to be, setting aside all his rants, his predilections, etc.. on this particular issue, he's spoken up and placed a spotlight on a complicated issue that I believe warrants it.

 

[UcMiami]

As an aside - everyone is focused on concussion and the game of American football, but according to something I read a while back, it may actually be a larger issue in European football - beside the obvious elbows and other body parts connecting with peoples heads, the act of heading a football leads to many more minor concussions and the integral part heading plays in the game and its frequency both in competition and practice may be more damaging than the more occasional serious concussions in the american game. It is similar to what boxers experience, but soccer players train constantly, while boxers are exposed much more infrequently.

Just because it is not a 'contact' sport does not make it without risk.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Was trying to be terse - and in doing so perhaps lost the point.

"Too low" as in unrealistic, not aligned to application in real life . Each place of business has a code of conduct across a multitude of behaviors to which all employees must abide. To cite just a very few among countless others, insubordination to one's direct report, sexual harassment in the workplace, improper use of company products such as e-mail & intant messaging - all of which may result in termination. They are far from illegal, and almost never result in criminal prosecution but are most certainly actionable, justifiably so. Hope that clarifies?

As it relates here, as difficult as it appears to be, setting aside all his rants, his predilections, etc.. on this particular issue, he's spoken up and placed a spotlight on a complicated issue that I believe warrants it.

He is not a credible messenger for anything, which I guess is my point. Sometimes the messenger is such a lightning rod of dishonesty himself that he is in no position to judge or editorialize. Why they hired this clown back after he violated, multiple times, his own employer's rules and then had close to mental breakdown on TV is beyond me - I guess he has a loyal following of people looking for his next train wreck. I suspect he's a self medicating manic depressive.

Anyway: A question? Does anyone have any evidence that Solo has violated any rule/ regulation of the governing body of Team USA and been given a pass OR a deferred hearing? You know, like a certain team and quarterback (who was selling memorabilia etc etc), or the Dad selling his son as QB to the highest bidder. There is nothing to be gained in talking integrity in sports as long as the support is big business. After all, the child beater is back in his Viking uniform and the fans are ecstatic!

 

[RockyMTblue2]

As an aside - everyone is focused on concussion and the game of American football, but according to something I read a while back, it may actually be a larger issue in European football - beside the obvious elbows and other body parts connecting with peoples heads, the act of heading a football leads to many more minor concussions and the integral part heading plays in the game and its frequency both in competition and practice may be more damaging than the more occasional serious concussions in the american game. It is similar to what boxers experience, but soccer players train constantly, while boxers are exposed much more infrequently.

Just because it is not a 'contact' sport does not make it without risk.

Right. To not call it a contact sport is ludicrous, BTW. On the use of the head with the ball: I developed early onset cataracts and while there are a number of potential contributors to that, in my case the highest probability cause was soccer - the head, the ball...BOING, who knew!

 

[Nuyoika]

Solo actually was suspended from the National team for 30 days.

That's the part I don't get... I'm thinking wait wasn't she already suspended.

 

[CocoHusky]

Was trying to be terse - and in doing so perhaps lost the point.

"Too low" as in unrealistic, not aligned to application in real life . Each place of business has a code of conduct across a multitude of behaviors to which all employees must abide. To cite just a very few among countless others, insubordination to one's direct report, sexual harassment in the workplace, improper use of company products such as e-mail & intant messaging - all of which may result in termination. They are far from illegal, and almost never result in criminal prosecution but are most certainly actionable, justifiably so. Hope that clarifies?

As it relates here, as difficult as it appears to be, setting aside all his rants, his predilections, etc.. on this particular issue, he's spoken up and placed a spotlight on a complicated issue that I believe warrants it.

This certainly clarifies, I am in full agreement with your assessment that the bar is too low. I like the bar better where you have set & described it. Regarding Oberman, even a small minded windbag, rant prone, derelict is occasionally useful if he sheds light on a social issue which spawns dialogue. Since we are taking about it, I'll concede that Oberman is not entirely useless. But that is about as complimentary as I'll get!

 

[CocoHusky]

As an aside - everyone is focused on concussion and the game of American football, but according to something I read a while back, it may actually be a larger issue in European football - beside the obvious elbows and other body parts connecting with peoples heads, the act of heading a football leads to many more minor concussions and the integral part heading plays in the game and its frequency both in competition and practice may be more damaging than the more occasional serious concussions in the american game. It is similar to what boxers experience, but soccer players train constantly, while boxers are exposed much more infrequently.

Just because it is not a 'contact' sport does not make it without risk.

UC along those same lines I read few years ago that the rate of ACL tears among women is slightly higher for female soccer players than it is for female basketball players. My girls never strayed into soccer but ACL tears were very prevalent in basketball.

 

[snowkot]

That's the part I don't get... I'm thinking wait wasn't she already suspended.

Timing - the prior suspension was back in January of this year.

Olberman's polarizing effects: Understood! Which was why I included the link to the news article, and the accompanying video which are completely outside of Olberman's purview. Getting it out there in the public consciousness was the important thing.

I was a massive supporter of Solo's in 2007. I've read her most recent book. This time, however, it would appear she's crossed the line such that suspension may well be warranted; the goal being that she gets help, gets her stuff together, and is reinstated as expeditiously as conditions warrant.

As for RockyMTblue2's question - "Does anyone have any evidence that Solo has violated any rule..." No, and that's exactly Olberman's point. There is an ongoing criminal case with serious allegations that remains in the courts. That the DA has chosen to appeal a case dismissed on a technicality, without consideration of the facts, without encouragement from the plaintiffs is not insignificant. Does it mean Solo has done anything wrong? No. Does the dismissal mean that Solo is held harmless, as she's stated? No.

US Soccer has apparently not undertaken its own investigation, or if it has, it's been undeniably rudimentary. They have not reached out to Solo's sister or her son (the alleged aggrieved parties putting forth the allegations), to this point, and by the coach's own comments (in the video at that second link), appear rather proud not to have done so. I think most would agree that is difficult to defend.

As for the off-topic-off-topic-topic - I love the sport. I was a hockey goalie (without a mask) pretty much from the moment I could skate and subsequently a soccer goalkeeper from the moment the sport was offered in 7th grade (and have the crooked fingers to prove it! ) - so agreed - health implications are most definitely under-appreciated.

 

[UcMiami]

Again I would say - should USA basketball (and Uconn) have suspended Geno for the period of time (nearly a year) when there was a court case pending against him? The obvious answer on this board is NO.
But according to some posting here there should be an assumption of guilt prior to any court deciding the issue.

 

[easttexastrash]

Should Geno have been suspended while the claim that he had taken retaliatory action against the USAB security guard was being investigated? No, he should not have been, and neither should Hope Solo.

 

[easttexastrash]

Again I would say - should USA basketball (and Uconn) have suspended Geno for the period of time (nearly a year) when there was a court case pending against him? The obvious answer on this board is NO.
But according to some posting here there should be an assumption of guilt prior to any court deciding the issue.

I should have read your post before I submitted mine...exactly the same thought.