OT: Toledo requests BE vacate SYR win

[nelsonmuntz]

The replay I saw clearly showed the ball passing in front of the post. This is par for the course for Big East refs though. We might have the worst officials of any conference at any level.

Not even close to true about the worst officials. If it was an SEC or Big 12 crew that did that, they wouldn't even be embarrassed or issue an apology. SEC refs are part of the gameplan in non-conference games against mid-major opponents.

 

[pepband99]

Why can't the outcome of the game be changed and Toledo be ruled the winner and Syracuse the loser. The replay officials screwed up. When a mistake like that is made you need to do the right thing.

If I was an official at Syracuse I would agree with the folks at Toledo and second their request that the result of the game be overturned. It is the right thing to do! It has been done before!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Down_Game_(1940)

The Fifth-Down Game of November 16, 1940

Cornell entered the contest with 18 straight victories over a two-year period.
Dartmouth would manage to hold off Cornell's offense for nearly the entire low-scoring game. Dartmouth scored first, achieving a field goal for three points in the fourth quarter.
Finally, with less than a minute remaining in the game, Cornell got the ball on Dartmouth's six-yard line. Cornell expected to have four chances to win the game. On its first down, fullback Mort Landsberg gained three yards. On its second down, Cornell halfback Walt Scholl managed to run the ball to the one-yard line. On the third down, Mort Landsberg tried to run up the middle but did not gain more than a few inches. On the fourth down, Cornell was penalized for delay of game, and Referee Red Friesell spotted the ball just over the 5-yard line in order to replay the fourth down. With nine seconds left on the clock, quarterback "Pop" Scholl threw an incomplete pass into the end zone. Normally, the ball would have gone to Dartmouth, which would have used up the remaining seconds and won the game, 3-0.
But following the fourth down, Linesman Joe McKenny signaled that the ball should go to Cornell again. Referee Friesell agreed. Making the most of the unexpected opportunity, quarterback Scholl threw a touchdown pass, and following the extra-point kick, Cornell won the game, 7-3.

[edit]​

The Forfeit

Officials discovered their error after reviewing the game films. Cornell's players, coach Carl Snavely, acting athletic director Bob Kane, and PresidentEdmund Ezra Day, a Dartmouth alumnus, agreed that Cornell should send a telegram to Dartmouth offering to forfeit the game. Dartmouth accepted.

[edit]​

Aftermath

Although there is some doubt whether the 1940 Cornell forfeit was "official" according to NCAA rules, the game is regarded as a 3-0 Dartmouth victory, instead of a 7-3 triumph by Cornell.[1] This is described as the only time in the history of football that a game was decided off the field.
The New York Times N.F.L. sports blog "The Fifth Down" is named in part after the incident in this game.

Apples and oranges. Toledo might have a point if the PAT was at the gun. It wasn't. They don't.

 

[businesslawyer]

Apples and oranges. Toledo might have a point if the PAT was at the gun. It wasn't. They don't.

Plus 1000. If a blown call occurs on the last play of the game, talk to me. There were over two minutes left here. There is simply no way of knowing that the next seven or eight plays would have been the same had Syracuse been up 2 instead of 3. When you win an appeal in baseball, you go back to the moment the call was blown and replay the game from there. You would have to do that in football, but you can't get the two teams together on a field without screwing up their schedules for other games.

It was an absolutely blown call. Toledo got jobbed. There is no choice other than getting over it.

 

[HartfordHank]

Actually pepband it is not apples and oranges, it is right and wrong. Can Syracuse say they won the game fair and square? I say they can't. They should step up and do the right thing! They should have had 29 points not 30. Toledo gets a field goal and now has 30 points. 30 beats 29 and there should not have been overtime.

 

[ZooCougar]

Not even close to true about the worst officials. If it was an SEC or Big 12 crew that did that, they wouldn't even be embarrassed or issue an apology. SEC refs are part of the gameplan in non-conference games against mid-major opponents.

Do even have a recollection of the Larry Taylor "fair catch" incident? The Big East is notoriously bad in this department.

 

[pepband99]

Actually pepband it is not apples and oranges, it is right and wrong. Can Syracuse say they won the game fair and square? I say they can't. They should step up and do the right thing! They should have had 29 points not 30. Toledo gets a field goal and now has 30 points. 30 beats 29 and there should not have been overtime.

Nonsense. This is like going back to a replay-reviewed play 5 or 6 plays later. You can't unring the bells that went off in the interim.

If you can come up with something to overcome the logistical issues of replaying the end of that game, I might listen, but it's still nonsense.

 

[Kingspoint]

Just wanted to make a point about AD O'Brien's request of the MAC to request the BE to vacate Syracuse's win and award it to UT. Although I haven't seen it mentioned, I don't know whose rules such a thing would come under, but I doubt it's something under the purview of the NCAA. Under NCAA rules, when a team's wins are vacated, it doesn't mean the opposing team is credited with a win. Therefore, I would hazard a guess most fb coaches, players and fans will disagree that a game didn't happen just because the NCAA says it didn't happen. As for what happens in this case, I guess we'll find out soon enough...or not. I wonder if do-overs are an option? ;-)

 

[HartfordHank]

Pepband - So you have no issue whether SU winning is right or wrong? Doing the right thing is obviously not the priority. No attempt to do the right thing and concede to the Toledo request?

Do you think you would be looking at this the same way if you were from Toledo? Do you think you could find a way to "unring" the bell if it was you who had been doubly screwed by the on field officials and then the replay officials? And then to top if off the Big East officials confirmed that yes we have doubly screwed you, SORRY!

Maybe the administration at SU should step up and do the correct thing and correct the wrong that occurred.

 

[pepband99]

Pepband - So you have no issue whether SU winning is right or wrong? Doing the right thing is obviously not the priority. No attempt to do the right thing and concede to the Toledo request?

Do you think you would be looking at this the same way if you were from Toledo? Do you think you could find a way to "unring" the bell if it was you who had been doubly screwed by the on field officials and then the replay officials? And then to top if off the Big East officials confirmed that yes we have doubly screwed you, SORRY!

Maybe the administration at SU should step up and do the correct thing and correct the wrong that occurred.

That's why this is nonsense - they can't. Would a press release from the Cuse, declaring Toledo the winner, make them feel better? Because that's about all it could possibly do - the win wouldn't stand officially.

Really the only reasonable way to "right" this "wrong" is to replay the game from the point of the error. If that remains impossible to accomplish, all of this is useless yapping.

 

[mattp]

Nonsense. This is like going back to a replay-reviewed play 5 or 6 plays later. You can't unring the bells that went off in the interim.

If you can come up with something to overcome the logistical issues of replaying the end of that game, I might listen, but it's still nonsense.

two weeks ago LArry Scott changed the score of the Utah USC game a couple of hours after the game had ended. it's not like everything is written in stone after the bell rings. that being said, officiating mistakes are part of the game, what else can you say?

 

[pepband99]

two weeks ago LArry Scott changed the score of the Utah USC game a couple of hours after the game had ended. it's not like everything is written in stone after the bell rings. that being said, officiating mistakes are part of the game, what else can you say?

Comparing apples to racecars: that was a legitimate scoring error, where the final score was miscommunicated. It only tangentally had anything to do with the play on the field. This is a direct officiating mistake.

 

[HartfordHank]

that being said, officiating mistakes are part of the game, what else can you say?

I agree that officiating mistakes are part of the game. However instant replay is supposed to be a tool to correct snap judgments that might be wrong. Instant replay mistakes are not supposed to be part of the game. They are supposed to correct in game mistakes. Why have instant replay if they still cannot get something right.

 

[mattp]

I agree that officiating mistakes are part of the game. However instant replay is supposed to be a tool to correct snap judgments that might be wrong. Instant replay mistakes are not supposed to be part of the game. They are supposed to correct in game mistakes. Why have instant replay if they still cannot get something right.

i don't understand how someone can blow a call like that with instant replay, but apparently it can happen. i think to change a win on a blown call that happened in the middle of a game(even if near the very end) sets a tough precedent. what can you do other than fire the refs, since they obviously don't have the visual skills necessary? i certainly hope the refs involved had to fight like dogs to keep their jobs, otherwise someone higher up needs to be fired.

 

[HartfordHank]

Really the only reasonable way to "right" this "wrong" is to replay the game from the point of the error. If that remains impossible to accomplish, all of this is useless yapping.

So if SU has a two point lead instead of a three point lead how would the final 2:07 be played differently? Would they have been more aggressive on defense? Would Toledo have actually called different plays? If this was at the end of the half I agree it would be different. It was the end of the fourth quarter and Toledo moved down the field in the final 2:07 and kicked what should have been a game winning field goal not a game tying field goal!

I can understand if it was a 3 point vs. 4 point difference your strategy is completely different. You need a touchdown and your play calling would be very different. Not the case here.

 

[businesslawyer]

Pepband - So you have no issue whether SU winning is right or wrong? Doing the right thing is obviously not the priority. No attempt to do the right thing and concede to the Toledo request?

Do you think you would be looking at this the same way if you were from Toledo? Do you think you could find a way to "unring" the bell if it was you who had been doubly screwed by the on field officials and then the replay officials? And then to top if off the Big East officials confirmed that yes we have doubly screwed you, SORRY!

Maybe the administration at SU should step up and do the correct thing and correct the wrong that occurred.

Honestly, this is a dumb post. It was not the last play of the game. What is Hartford Hank's firm, unwaivable rule about when an official's mistake that might have changed the outcome of the game is deemed to have actually changed the result of the game. What if the play was in the first half? Third Quarter? Five minutes left? At what point do you say you aren't sure if things would have been done differently? What if you think the call was wrong but you're not 100% sure? Is 90% sure enough? 80%?

 

[businesslawyer]

So if SU has a two point lead instead of a three point lead how would the final 2:07 be played differently? Would they have been more aggressive on defense? Would Toledo have actually called different plays? If this was at the end of the half I agree it would be different. It was the end of the fourth quarter and Toledo moved down the field in the final 2:07 and kicked what should have been a game winning field goal not a game tying field goal!

I can understand if it was a 3 point vs. 4 point difference your strategy is completely different. You need a touchdown and your play calling would be very different. Not the case here.

And you know for a fact that Syracuse might not have blitzed once knowing that a FG beat them instead of sending the game into OT? Exactly what is the rule you would set forth for conference officials after a game is over determining that they "knew" that someone would not have done something differently?

 

[IMind]

Blown calls happen... get over it. They happen all the time at every level of sports. Replay is nice... but it's not the be all end all.

 

[Kingspoint]

+1 to all the blown calls and/or officials make mistakes. It stinks if your team is on the losing end, no matter what the circumstances, but I think it's best to just move on and get over it. I know it's not fb, but remember this one from last season? Armando Galarraga of the Detroit Tigers lost his bid for a perfect game with two outs in the ninth inning on a call that first base umpire Jim Joyce later admitted he blew. The ump called the batter safe at first when the replay clearly showed he was out.