OT: This is Baylor country

[RS9999X]

Theoretical physicists?. Aren't they Metaphysicists in training? Still learning about multiverses, time, omniscience, and humility?
.

 

[pinotbear]

RS, I haven't been able to concentrate on anything you've posted since Adam's Rib..which reminded me of the M*A*S*H episode, and the barbeque sauce therein...mmmmmmm, ribs n' sauces......mmmmm, nomnomnomnom.... need an inexpensive shiraz here, too.....

 

[Zorro]

The domains aren't comparable. The physical domain is knowable, testable and useable. The "spiritual domain" is conjecture, pure and simple, from Catholicism to scientology. And theoretical physicists are NOT "alchemists in training". That is just silly to the max. Superstring theory, brane theory, one of the the "many-universes" theories may turn out to be correct, or they may never be able to answer all the questions. But they are much further along than they were x number of years ago. Gould's "seperate domains" proposition is simply a very slick version of the "God of the Gaps" idea.

 

[RS9999X]

Obviously you have many learned people who disagree as there are many writers exploring the philosophy of ideas. Not all think the numbers come first. Concept runs ahead of proof. These scientific realizations are merely the delayed realizations of a spiritually addled species trapped in temporalism full of sound and fury signifying nothing.. This split between Science and Metaphysics is only 250 years old. I don't think it's going to resolve itself the way the hardened empiricists do. Time will establish the length of the leash.

 

[Zorro]

And which of the hundreds of competing systems of the "Spiritual Magesterium" do you think will finally prevail and why? Will it be because of the correctness of its surmises, or because it has outgunned the others?

 

[UcMiami]

One of my favorite natural selection phenomenon is happening in over-fished local waters around the world. Species like Red Snapper which used to grow quite large and would be thrown back if they were less than say ten inches have been 'naturally selected' and fewer and fewer of them reach ten inches in adulthood. This has happened over a very short period of time. There are other similar results occurring because of the fast changes to the environment brought on by human development.

 

[Icebear]

Not sure if this ends the discussion, all hope or anything In particular but it may indicate we are doomed. Let it suffice to say the gravity of the situation is immense.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?featur...top_uri=/watch?v=jTxOcMhRv6M&feature=youtu.be

 

[RS9999X]

They are all pretty and sure to procreate and pass on their genes. Another argument for Random Walk and Chaos Theory as a more appropriate definition of evolution than some ideal of the fittest leading to cyclical improvements in the gene pool.

 

[Zorro]

How so? Please to elucidate.

 

[Rayvin56]

We watched the recently released to dvd movie, 'The Revisionaries'--well done and a fairly clear view of one local Texas school board and how much they influence what goes into science and history textbooks that are used all over the country. Worth a watch, for sure. I believe it's on Netflix, also. http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_revisionaries_2012/

 

[Wally East]

I use to be an atheist but there's not enough holidays.

Well, Superman's birthday is February 29, so that'll help once every four years

 

[Icebear]

We watched the recently released to dvd movie, 'The Revisionaries'--well done and a fairly clear view of one local Texas school board and how much they influence what goes into science and history textbooks that are used all over the country. Worth a watch, for sure. I believe it's on Netflix, also. http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_revisionaries_2012/[/quote]

Yes, this is all very real and very scary stuff. They impact both the distortion of science and American History in very dangerous and significant manners.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

Not sure if this ends the discussion, all hope or anything In particular but it may indicate we are doomed. Let it suffice to say the gravity of the situation is immense.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=jTxOcMhRv6M&desktop_uri=/watch?v=jTxOcMhRv6M&feature=youtu.be

We are doomed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Actually, I have been using the phrase "the dumbing of America" quite a bit lately. The scary thing is that folks don't let minor things like facts get in their way of being dumb. As in the example.

 

[UcMiami]

I find it interesting that over the span of my lifetime 'intellectual' has become a pejorative in political discourse, when it used to be a good thing. Families still celebrate the first child getting to go to college, but being labeled intelligent is a bad thing in politics. Oh well.
(And I haven't completely figured out if some politicians are really as dumb as what they spout, or if it is all an act to garner more 'stupid' votes.)

 

[Rayvin56]

It would be bad enough if it were limited to only one part of the country, but because the volume of textbooks purchased by Texas schools is so high, the science and history textbook modifications demanded by their boards of ed are adopted by the publishers due to $$$ and get incorporated into books that are used nationally. At least this is one of the assertions of the documentary.

 

[JRRRJ]

The domains aren't comparable. The physical domain is knowable, testable and useable. The "spiritual domain" is conjecture, pure and simple, from Catholicism to scientology. And theoretical physicists are NOT "alchemists in training". That is just silly to the max. Superstring theory, brane theory, one of the the "many-universes" theories may turn out to be correct, or they may never be able to answer all the questions. But they are much further along than they were x number of years ago. Gould's "seperate domains" proposition is simply a very slick version of the "God of the Gaps" idea.

Z., if you posit they're "much further along", can you tell me where I might find at least one potentially verifiable prediction from any of the multiverse thought experiments? I've yet to hear of any.

 

[Zorro]

I find it interesting that over the span of my lifetime 'intellectual' has become a pejorative in political discourse, when it used to be a good thing. Families still celebrate the first child getting to go to college, but being labeled intelligent is a bad thing in politics. Oh well.
(And I haven't completely figured out if some politicians are really as dumb as what they spout, or if it is all an act to garner more 'stupid' votes.)

I've wondered about that a lot.I think it varies from pol to pol. Don't want to chance violating policy by naming names, but there are some that you just KNOW are sincere in their ignorance and others who seem to have something of a hard time faking it.

 

[OneTrickPony]

The domains aren't comparable. The physical domain is knowable, testable and useable. The "spiritual domain" is conjecture, pure and simple, from Catholicism to scientology. And theoretical physicists are NOT "alchemists in training". That is just silly to the max. Superstring theory, brane theory, one of the the "many-universes" theories may turn out to be correct, or they may never be able to answer all the questions. But they are much further along than they were x number of years ago. Gould's "seperate domains" proposition is simply a very slick version of the "God of the Gaps" idea.

Kant would disagree...

 

[Zorro]

Z., if you posit they're "much further along", can you tell me where I might find at least one potentially verifiable prediction from any of the multiverse thought experiments? I've yet to hear of any.

JR; No, I can't. I am by no means knowledgeable in the field of theoretical physics, only an awe-struck and fascinated observer. I just spent an hour trying to find an answer to your question. Some physicists seem to believe that the classic "two-slit" experiment is sufficient proof; others don't. It looks as if the best argument for the multiverse interpretation is that, incomprhensible as it is, it is less incomprehensible than alternate explanation of the strange world of quantum mechanics. The best statement of this that I could find is from Max Tegmark, quoted in Wikipedia; (part of a much longer article)
"A common feature of all four multiverse levels is that the simplest and arguably most elegant theory involves parallel universes by default. To deny the existence of those universes, one needs to complicate the theory by adding experimentally unsupported processes and ad hoc postulates: finite space, wave function collapse and ontological asymmetry. Our judgment therefore comes down to which we find more wasteful and inelegant: many worlds or many words. Perhaps we will gradually get used to the weird ways of our cosmos and find its strangeness to be part of its charm."[5]

 

[RS9999X]

Kurt Vonnegut and others live and died by multiverse theory. As did The Matrix.

The theories of multiverses and the singularity (the One) are not new to Metaphysics. Or even Christian Ontology. Whereas Christianity personalizes the theory in Trinitarian terms Sci fi gets cutesy with The One or Malachi Constant.

As an example below

The initial and final singularities are outside space and time, but they are connected by worldlines within space-time associated with the histories of all the universes in the "multiverse" that is implied by quantum mechanics The Father and Holy Spirit singularities are also connected by a line outside of space-time. This singularity associates with the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity. A Cauchy sequence, constructed from the person of Christ across all the universes in the multiverse, goes all the way to the God Singularity and is thus identical to it. While there are analogues of all of us in many universes, only Christ is found in all.

 

[RS9999X]

Meanwhile Science continues the search for the God particle.....

You know if there is a Christ he's laughing like all hell....

 

[UcMiami]

I've wondered about that a lot.I think it varies from pol to pol. Don't want to chance violating policy by naming names, but there are some that you just KNOW are sincere in their ignorance and others who seem to have something of a hard time faking it.

Yes - I had trouble keeping my observation 'apolitical' as well. Had more to say, but self censored - but it got into memberships of the various congressional committees most involved with science and technology.

 

[Rayvin56]

The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon. You can not contain the ocean of truth within a thimbleful of mind. The great mystery is unknowable, and, although the effort to conceptualize that which is beyond thought is ultimately futile, it can be great fun and appears to be the universal human condition. Koan for the day: What is the sound of one hand dunking?

 

[DobbsRover2]

Meanwhile Science continues the search for the God particle.....

You know if there is a Christ he's laughing like all hell....

And many religions continue espousing the "supreme intelligence" notion, which has has kept the firm adherents of the science community laughing to the "heavens" for eternity as theological yahoos and creationists bend over backwards to display their lack of intelligent thought or interest in it.

Look, you can always slip over to the superstition side when science doesn't satisfy your demand for every answer, but it's a cop out, and it's the big problem I have with all the leading highly religious scientists of the world who are proud to proclaim that their scientific fields cannot provide all the answers so they are happy to assign the unknowable to a divine presence they firmly believe in as a kind of backup to their minds. That's just bad and lazy scientific thought, and I'm not sure an NIH director should be publicly espousing this view. That as much as 50% of America's youth is likely being educated in a way that might make medieval theologians proud is a sobering thought (though at least back in the 1200s they were wrestling with the principles of critical thought, which the Texas school systems see as the enemy). True, the internecine wars in the science community in defense of pet theories are unhelpful, but at least you can always hope that the best science and maybe even the truth will win out, while convoluted drek is the goal of the anti-science cabal.

But the Bible as an historical tool and a provider of stories that point toward events that have a scientifically identified story behind them (Great Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc.) is a wonderful work of human endeavor to try to understand the world and events around us. And in a world of rapidly changing technology and social pressures that lead to all kinds of ethical issues, the search for the spiritual well-being of humankind has to be a driving force in the push for progress and solutions.

 

[UcMiami]

Dobbs - nice post and nice conclusion.
And I agree that human kind can always use a 'moral compass' to help even out our baser instincts. My quibble with most religious fanatics of any faith is they use their religion not as a moral compass but as a defense for their immoral acts. Not sure that their are many less [fill in your religion] people than the holier than thou [religion]
And to take the centuries old religious writings of any religion and treat them as indelible literal fact not open to all the scientific learning of the intervening centuries is to cheapen and degrade their underlying message.