OT: The Law Of Unintended Consequences: Eagles,Cows, Coyotes, Cougars

[RockyMTblue2]

So the beef industry has been inseminating cows for earlier and earlier spring calfing SO now it's dead of winter calfing. 3 bad eagles showed up last week on a cotton wood they use annually about 5 days ago, afterbirth being an energy rich delicacy when winter fishing is difficult . It's snowing and blowing here in what old timers call a real Montana winter - snow, blow,drift, snow blow drift snow blow drift. And it's below zero with wind pretty much every night.

Tough time to be introduced to the world, huh? Pretty tough time to be reintroduced to birthing your cows in a real winter you haven't seen in 20 yers or more. The young ones in the family are gone; college, job, really far elsewhere. The last generation of the small independent cow farmer is struggling. And the struggle is all across our country for them. It's a big winter pounding farming in general, but the consequences are raining down hardest on the beef farmer now.

The snow is deep in the hills and its hard for the predators to make a living there. Coyotes, like eagles, hang around for afterbirths in easy times and the coyotes get shot if you can see them. In an easy winter you won't see the cougars at all. BUT they're hungry now and getting hungrier. And they are equal opportunity predators and can come out of the swirling darkness and be on a human headed to the barn because a birthing alarm has gone off - heck they'll do it in broad daylight on a biking trail.

People here still rally round to help each other, but I send all best thoughts their way and if you are a fan of NY Strip or sirloin tip or .... 'cuz a lot of calfs aren't making it this "spring" birthing season.... send your good thoughts too.

 

[geewago]

Yes but Montana can sure be fascinating in the summer time. I harvested wheat up there for nearly 25 years. I went up in the Havre area and harvested around Gilford and Kremlin. Then we would go over to Cut Bank and work beside the Glacier park. Had to put pickup headers on up there as they windrowed most of it so it would ripen. I also cut a few times around Broadview, north of Billings and several times in the north east area around Plentywood and Scobey. You've probably heard of some of those places. One of the farmers I worked for in Havre had a big ranch in the Bear Paw mountains south of town. Learned a lot about the cattle raising issues in MT from him. It's sure a different world from what we deal with here in central Texas.

 

[veryolddog]

I own a 5000 acre ranch in NE New Mexico where I raise approximately 500 to 1000 head of cattle, 1000 acres of hay, and natural gas, i.e. not methane. I do not subscribe to those methods of cattle reproduction. All of my cattle is range fed or with hay in the winter. My beef is sold to speciality markets that seek out range fed cattle not feed lot cattle. I do not worry about the cattle so much as the Ranch is supported by Natural Gas.

You are absolutely correct that coyotes are a big problem. My county pays $50.00 for a dead one delivered to their door as there are many ranches in this area that survive only on the cattle business. Most of our calves are born in the Spring when the snow is melting but you still have to watch for predators.

I donate a beef to the county for free eating at the County Fair and several to the temple mission in Santa Fe for the homeless and hungry. By the way most of my hay is sold to horse breeders in Florida which is also a big horse and cattle state.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Yes but Montana can sure be fascinating in the summer time. I harvested wheat up there for nearly 25 years. I went up in the Havre area and harvested around Gilford and Kremlin. Then we would go over to Cut Bank and work beside the Glacier park. Had to put pickup headers on up there as they windrowed most of it so it would ripen. I also cut a few times around Broadview, north of Billings and several times in the north east area around Plentywood and Scobey. You've probably heard of some of those places. One of the farmers I worked for in Havre had a big ranch in the Bear Paw mountains south of town. Learned a lot about the cattle raising issues in MT from him. It's sure a different world from what we deal with here in central Texas.

Your wore out a lot of you doing that! Havre was -47 with wind chill to -70 one night last week! Yeah, I know the whole state but get stumped every week when someone starts talking about a town of 90 people in east Montana.

Different, yup: The MT cowboy has the calf slung over his pommel in the driving snow, you have better weather, but some other challenges I'm sure.

 

[bennyskid]

My family ranched in Eastern Oregon for years, too. (We sold it just before my father passed, a few years ago.) And I'm frankly I get cross-eyed at veryolddog's account of raising boutique beef for the elites. It's a free market, and if that business model works for veryolddog, go for it. But I don't see how raising expensive beef for the benefit of the rich is more moral or socially beneficial than what the rest of us do - which is feeding the ordinary people nutritious meat using the most environmentally efficient methods possible. If we all followed veryolddog's business plan, we'd lose uncountable acres of wildlife habitat and make beef unaffordable for most of the population. I think that counts for more than giving a couple animals away to the local poor.

We ran a 1000-cows cow-calf operation, like veryolddog, grazing on open range, plus some meadows and winter hay. But we sold off our calves to feedlots, who can add far more meat far more efficiently using grain instead of grass. America is one huge factory for converting sunlight into food, and an acre of Iowa corn is an incredibly efficient machine, worth countless acres of western rangeland. It makes zero environmental or moral sense to waste marginal western lands on feeding and finishing steers. Rangelands are better used for producing calves - or, in much of the west - given to wildlife habitat.

(Why is rangeland Ok for cow-calf operations, but not feeding steers? We're not trying to put weight on those cows, so low-quality feed like range grass is sufficient.)

Unfortunately, even a lot of ranchers don't understand why the industry does things the way it does. If the shoppers at Whole Foods had any inkling of what "range-fed" really means in the big picture, they wouldn't touch the stuff. It may seem ironic to folks who don't understand how business and markets really work, but it is the pursuit of lowering costs and increasing profits that has allowed the beef industry to do a remarkable job of producing the most meat at the lowest environmental costs.

And, the greatest rancher in the history of WBB is Ruth Hamblin - OSU '16, by way of British Columbia. Starting center on #2 ranked team, 2nd round WNBA pick, multiple Pac-12 All-Conference, DPOY. Could have been a rodeo star, chose WBB instead.

 

[JordyG]

Love this. Keep talkin'. This city boy loves the education.

 

[eebmg]

There is not a topic in existence that will not get some interesting (real life) contributions from the BY.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

We were big consumers of Canadian hay when we had a horse farm in CT and Ocala etc sure can eat hay and they want only the best. Got to go out but love this chat. Thanks guys and gals.

 

[JordyG]

We were big consumers of Canadian hay when we had a horse farm in CT and Ocala etc sure can eat hay and they want only the best. Got to go out but love this chat. Thanks guys and gals.

Is that right? Ocala will turn up their noses at leser quality hay?

 

[nwhoopfan]

Ah, the much maligned coyote. I'm a big fan of those adaptable, industrious wild canines. We pretty much eliminated the wolf and grizzly bear from the lower 48 (before re-introduction and/or conservation efforts have brought them back from the verge of extinction). Tried to do the same to the 'yote, not only did they survive, they thrived. Expanded their territory, they currently occupy every state and just about every ecosystem. I realize ranching is a hard line of work and predation is a real issue they face, but I also think most/all predators have faced prejudicial views and persecution throughout most of the history of the U.S.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Is that right? Ocala will turn up their noses at leser quality hay?

Absolutely. They are breeding some of the most expense horse flesh in the world in horse racing, dressage, polo, gaited carriage horse, arabians for multiple disciplines.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Ah, the much maligned coyote. I'm a big fan of those adaptable, industrious wild canines. We pretty much eliminated the wolf and grizzly bear from the lower 48 (before re-introduction and/or conservation efforts have brought them back from the verge of extinction). Tried to do the same to the 'yote, not only did they survive, they thrived. Expanded their territory, they currently occupy every state and just about every ecosystem. I realize ranching is a hard line of work and predation is a real issue they face, but I also think most/all predators have faced prejudicial views and persecution throughout most of the history of the U.S.

I liked your post, though I disagree with it except to praise the wiley coyote. They have sneered at every effort to control them. They do pack like wolves to hunt out here, but can breed like rabbits, unlike the wolf pack with the alpha female. Coyotes control rodents in both summer and winter and help us control the deer population because the do pack hunt deer. Our cougars chip in when they can on that effort . If grissly and wolves were not hunted vigorously the western range of both would have never been settled.

 

[nwhoopfan]

If grissly and wolves were not hunted vigorously the western range of both would have never been settled.

Now it's my turn to disagree. People have been living alongside wolves and grizzlies in Alaska and Western Canada for a long time. Fairy tale stuff about the big bad wolf have persisted for centuries.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

I own a 5000 acre ranch in NE New Mexico where I raise approximately 500 to 1000 head of cattle, 1000 acres of hay, and natural gas, i.e. not methane. I do not subscribe to those methods of cattle reproduction. All of my cattle is range fed or with hay in the winter. My beef is sold to speciality markets that seek out range fed cattle not feed lot cattle. I do not worry about the cattle so much as the Ranch is supported by Natural Gas.

You are absolutely correct that coyotes are a big problem. My county pays $50.00 for a dead one delivered to their door as there are many ranches in this area that survive only on the cattle business. Most of our calves are born in the Spring when the snow is melting but you still have to watch for predators.

I donate a beef to the county for free eating at the County Fair and several to the temple mission in Santa Fe for the homeless and hungry. By the way most of my hay is sold to horse breeders in Florida which is also a big horse and cattle state.

We do not feed lot beef in Montana sir! The weather forces them early out of their spring, summer, fall range and are then ranging on the valley ranches being fed the best hay in the world. The calves may be feed lot fed a couple of weeks before auction.

Dairy cow operations a whole different breed of operation.

Beef, it's whats for dinner.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Now it's my turn to disagree. People have been living alongside wolves and grizzlies in Alaska and Western Canada for a long time. Fairly tale stuff about the big bad wolf have persisted for centuries.

See we can disagree about this an still be buds I hope.

 

[nwhoopfan]

See we can disagree about this an still be buds I hope.

absolutely

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Now it's my turn to disagree. People have been living alongside wolves and grizzlies in Alaska and Western Canada for a long time. Fairy tale stuff about the big bad wolf have persisted for centuries.

It's all a very variable situation as to both time and place. But lions, tigers and bears oh my should include the CA grey wolf which is what Yellowstone Park was reseeded with to bring the natural chain of things come back to Yellowstone along with the grisslies. But, yes, we should control the interface between man and beast, respecting both.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

I do love talking about this stuff, 'cuz it affects people I know and respect So one last thought on the grey wolf: they will thrill kill 6-8 sheep, "they" being usually one big male and then the feds come in take DNA samples of the carcasses, confirm wolf kill, and compensate the rancher and of course it's more complex than that 'cuz gov't is involved. Point is the wolf is pure predator and opportunistic. That's it for the night for me. I have to catch up on basketball. See, it's my theory that Vic tanked the Mizz game in an effort to get out of the Albany Region - that's a joke folks.

 

[JordyG]

Now it's my turn to disagree. People have been living alongside wolves and grizzlies in Alaska and Western Canada for a long time. Fairy tale stuff about the big bad wolf have persisted for centuries.

See we can disagree about this an still be buds I hope.

I love it. C'mon guys, get just a little mad.

 

[nwhoopfan]

I love it. C'mon guys, get just a little mad.

You're one of those instigators huh? I did just accuse you of being put on probation the other day, so I guess I had it coming.

 

[Gus Mahler]

So the beef industry has been inseminating cows for earlier and earlier spring calfing SO now it's dead of winter calfing. 3 bad eagles showed up last week on a cotton wood they use annually about 5 days ago, afterbirth being an energy rich delicacy when winter fishing is difficult . It's snowing and blowing here in what old timers call a real Montana winter - snow, blow,drift, snow blow drift snow blow drift. And it's below zero with wind pretty much every night.

Tough time to be introduced to the world, huh? Pretty tough time to be reintroduced to birthing your cows in a real winter you haven't seen in 20 yers or more. The young ones in the family are gone; college, job, really far elsewhere. The last generation of the small independent cow farmer is struggling. And the struggle is all across our country for them. It's a big winter pounding farming in general, but the consequences are raining down hardest on the beef farmer now.

The snow is deep in the hills and its hard for the predators to make a living there. Coyotes, like eagles, hang around for afterbirths in easy times and the coyotes get shot if you can see them. In an easy winter you won't see the cougars at all. BUT they're hungry now and getting hungrier. And they are equal opportunity predators and can come out of the swirling darkness and be on a human headed to the barn because a birthing alarm has gone off - heck they'll do it in broad daylight on a biking trail.

People here still rally round to help each other, but I send all best thoughts their way and if you are a fan of NY Strip or sirloin tip or .... 'cuz a lot of calfs aren't making it this "spring" birthing season.... send your good thoughts too.

Interesting post.

Tell me: How is "coyote" pronounced in Montana?

 

[JordyG]

You're one of those instigators huh? I did just accuse you of being put on probation the other day, so I guess I had it coming.

Look into my eyes.

 

[JordyG]

Interesting post.

Tell me: How is "coyote" pronounced in Montana?

I love this post. Best OT in a while.

 

[geewago]

In Texas we pronounce it Ky-oat. Or if we're talking pig latin we say Ky-o-tee. I raise quite a few game roosters each year and the coyote is my arch enemy. Nearly every week or so I will bait around 6 hava-hart type traps. I catch bob cats and coons rather easily. Quite frequently get a fox. But it is rare to get a coyote. I have caught 3 in the last 5 years or so. It's much easier to shoot them from a tractor seat. They are not afraid of a tractor at all. In fact they'll come out and follow you around to get the rats and rabbits that your stirring out when your plowing or shredding. Keep my old Stevens 22 in the cab and it often comes in rather handy.

The chupacabra on the other hand is wary critter that is starting to show up more in south central TX. I've seen two while riding my Indian Motorcyle down by the Brazos river road near Wilderville in Falls county. A very weird looking creature and they have a unique run like no other dog like animal. A rancher friend in Halletsville has trapped a couple but they were young. That's my luck with Coyotes, only trap the younger ones. Old ones are just too smart.

A while back I went to Cabelas and bought some shotgun shells and 22 bullets. The lady at the counter wanted to know if I would like to contribute to the "Save the Wildlife Fund". I said, "Maam, I'm buying these bullets to kill the wildlife that eat my chickens, why would I contribute to a fund to save them?" It went completely over her head. She just stared at me like a cow stares at a new gate.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Interesting post.

Tell me: How is "coyote" pronounced in Montana?

How long you got? kay-yo-teh is my personal fav. Lke the indigenous people I consider the coyote my brother. yutes signifing I shoot them critters every chance I get. Kyotes, see yutes. Ko-yoh-tee you aren't from around here are yuh. etc etc

 

[RockyMTblue2]

I love it. C'mon guys, get just a little mad.

Listen Genghis we save the heavy fire for basketball! That's what I call the mods Killing Field BTW, which is why UConn game threads moved into the internment camp called chat

 

[RockyMTblue2]

My family ranched in Eastern Oregon for years, too. (We sold it just before my father passed, a few years ago.) And I'm frankly I get cross-eyed at veryolddog's account of raising boutique beef for the elites. It's a free market, and if that business model works for veryolddog, go for it. But I don't see how raising expensive beef for the benefit of the rich is more moral or socially beneficial than what the rest of us do - which is feeding the ordinary people nutritious meat using the most environmentally efficient methods possible. If we all followed veryolddog's business plan, we'd lose uncountable acres of wildlife habitat and make beef unaffordable for most of the population. I think that counts for more than giving a couple animals away to the local poor.

We ran a 1000-cows cow-calf operation, like veryolddog, grazing on open range, plus some meadows and winter hay. But we sold off our calves to feedlots, who can add far more meat far more efficiently using grain instead of grass. America is one huge factory for converting sunlight into food, and an acre of Iowa corn is an incredibly efficient machine, worth countless acres of western rangeland. It makes zero environmental or moral sense to waste marginal western lands on feeding and finishing steers. Rangelands are better used for producing calves - or, in much of the west - given to wildlife habitat.

(Why is rangeland Ok for cow-calf operations, but not feeding steers? We're not trying to put weight on those cows, so low-quality feed like range grass is sufficient.)

Unfortunately, even a lot of ranchers don't understand why the industry does things the way it does. If the shoppers at Whole Foods had any inkling of what "range-fed" really means in the big picture, they wouldn't touch the stuff. It may seem ironic to folks who don't understand how business and markets really work, but it is the pursuit of lowering costs and increasing profits that has allowed the beef industry to do a remarkable job of producing the most meat at the lowest environmental costs.

And, the greatest rancher in the history of WBB is Ruth Hamblin - OSU '16, by way of British Columbia. Starting center on #2 ranked team, 2nd round WNBA pick, multiple Pac-12 All-Conference, DPOY. Could have been a rodeo star, chose WBB instead.

How do you pronounce rodeo in eastern Oregon? Better question, same question for Oregon.

 

[veryolddog]

We do not feed lot beef in Montana sir! The weather forces them early out of their spring, summer, fall range and are then ranging on the valley ranches being fed the best hay in the world. The calves may be feed lot fed a couple of weeks before auction.

Dairy cow operations a whole different breed of operation.

Beef, it's whats for dinner.

I do not understand why criticism is warranted as to how and why I raise and sell the cattle on my ranch.

Let me go into history a little bit to explain my operation. My father purchased this land in 1930 for a dollar an acre during the great depression and it remained dormant until I decided to make the land work in 2002. I served in the Marine Corps for 23 years and had no experience in ranching and farming. While working in the business environment I studied the situation and saved the investment capital. When my wife and I moved there, there was a few crumbling buildings and no working wells. We live in a trailer, drilled for water and constructed our home. Having a business plan that we developed, we generally followed our plan, purchasing 250 head of cattle, constructed a barn and let the cattle roam the land. We arranged for the 200 acres of hay to be developed and later grew that to 1000 acres. I contacted companies in Dallas, Texas to explore my land for oil and natural gas. I hired a former 1st Sargent from the Marine Corps to manage the ranch as his family had agricultural experience. Built a home for him and his family and carved out 100 acres for him. With the use of the Internet as a tool, sales of beef and hay picked up by people with money. Natural gas was found and it took 3 years to get approval to harvest that fuel. (my understanding is that fuel heats a lot of homes in the NE during winter)

What I do not understand is why the way I make a profit from this land and the way I raise cattle and to whom I sell my hay and the cattle, makes any difference to anyone. We live in a capitalistic society, thank God, where any many can muster resources to invest like the stock market or his own business and realize the American Dream. Today, my land is worth millions. I could even start a new business by issuing permits to hunt elk and deer on land that come down from the mountains in large herds to feed in the winter. But, I won't do this. The only shooting is mine. I also have wild horses roaming my land since time began. They use my wells to drink along with the cattle and get fed hay in the winter. Frankly, they are very protective of me and the herd has grown. Because of what we (my wife and I and the 1st Sargent) have done, I can now enjoy many things. We have a home near my son in San Antonio, Texas and visit our grandchildren who are young adults.

Why is it such a problem to you as the way I choose to conduct business. It is my risk for success or failure. Apparently, my business model is not appreciated but it works. What you have works for you, and it does not matter to me. And I still view myself as the caretaker of this land.

 

[vtcwbuff]

I do not understand why criticism is warranted as to how and why I raise and sell the cattle on my ranch.

Neither do I. I could give my opinion but it would probably get me banned or at least get my post removed.

 

[Bama fan]

I do not understand why criticism is warranted as to how and why I raise and sell the cattle on my ranch.

Let me go into history a little bit to explain my operation. My father purchased this land in 1930 for a dollar an acre during the great depression and it remained dormant until I decided to make the land work in 2002. I served in the Marine Corps for 23 years and had no experience in ranching and farming. While working in the business environment I studied the situation and saved the investment capital. When my wife and I moved there, there was a few crumbling buildings and no working wells. We live in a trailer, drilled for water and constructed our home. Having a business plan that we developed, we generally followed our plan, purchasing 250 head of cattle, constructed a barn and let the cattle roam the land. We arranged for the 200 acres of hay to be developed and later grew that to 1000 acres. I contacted companies in Dallas, Texas to explore my land for oil and natural gas. I hired a former 1st Sargent from the Marine Corps to manage the ranch as his family had agricultural experience. Built a home for him and his family and carved out 100 acres for him. With the use of the Internet as a tool, sales of beef and hay picked up by people with money. Natural gas was found and it took 3 years to get approval to harvest that fuel. (my understanding is that fuel heats a lot of homes in the NE during winter)

What I do not understand is why the way I make a profit from this land and the way I raise cattle and to whom I sell my hay and the cattle, makes any difference to anyone. We live in a capitalistic society, thank God, where any many can muster resources to invest like the stock market or his own business and realize the American Dream. Today, my land is worth millions. I could even start a new business by issuing permits to hunt elk and deer on land that come down from the mountains in large herds to feed in the winter. But, I won't do this. The only shooting is mine. I also have wild horses roaming my land since time began. They use my wells to drink along with the cattle and get fed hay in the winter. Frankly, they are very protective of me and the herd has grown. Because of what we (my wife and I and the 1st Sargent) have done, I can now enjoy many things. We have a home near my son in San Antonio, Texas and visit our grandchildren who are young adults.

Why is it such a problem to you as the way I choose to conduct business. It is my risk for success or failure. Apparently, my business model is not appreciated but it works. What you have works for you, and it does not matter to me. And I still view myself as the caretaker of this land.

Exxon doesn't approve of Texaco's business model; U S Steel pooh poohs Nucor; Blue Bell thinks Edy's makes crap. Do what you do well, and enjoy the fruits of your labor! It matters not what others think. I , for one, am happy for you success.