OT the impact of James

[MilliniumPrince]

A couple things....

1) Who has James made better? He didn't win a title until he joined forces with Wade and Bosh and he certainly didn't make either player better. If anything, he forced them to play lesser roles and contribute less than they could have. He hasn't made Irving or Love better through half a season.

2) Anthony Davis? In a list that includes James, Jordan, Bird and Magic? Give me a fakkin break. That's ridiculous.

#1 can't be a serious question. He carried a team of bums to the finals in his first tenure in Cleveland. The team when from 60+ wins a season to barely 20 the year he left. He makes EVERYONE better. I am not arguing LeBron vs. MJ because it is too soon. But saying LeBron didn't make anyone around him better is beyond insane.

 

[Matrim55]

Part of the reason Jordan took a sabbatical was it stopped being a challenge.

This is the very definition of a PR-manufactured narrative. Guys like Paxson, Armstrong and even Phil Jax said that Jordan was burned out after that last one for myriad reasons.

And it hadn't "stopped being a challenge" in the regular season, when the Bulls actually finished behind the Knicks, or in the playoffs, when both the Knicks & Suns took Chicago to 6 games (that Suns series was two plays from going 4-2 in the other direction, by the way).

I'm not suggesting that Jordan ran away from the Bulls when things were looking just a bit tougher. But this deification of the guy and the conventional wisdom that he's the best by miles is so galling to see for anyone who lived through the '80s, '90s and today.

The fact is, Jordan's career was charmed. He is very likely the best of all-time, but:

• Jordan won all six of his titles with one of the three best coaches of all time; never made a deep run with anyone else
• Jordan's best teammate was the most underrated player of all-time (Pippen), a top-20 player who is also the greatest perimeter defender of all-time
• Jordan's best team featured the two best defensive forwards (Pippen & Rodman) and an elite defensive PG (Harper)
• Jordan never made four straight finals (Bird & LBJ)
• When Jordan left the Bulls in '93, the team won only two fewer games the following season

LBJ & Kareem are definitely in the discussion with MJ.

Imagine if LBJ had a good coach at any point in his first 7-8 years (remember when Larry Brown was about to take over the Cavs in 2006?). Imagine if he had even one teammate as good as Pippen, or was surrounded by ridiculous shooters like Paxson, Armstrong, Hodges, Kerr, etc. Or if he didn't have to go against new zonal schemes & rules that penalize post-ups - remember when Mark Jackson would just back a guy down on the block and get a lay-up because sending help too early would result in an illegal defense call? Try guarding LeBron 1-v-1 on the block, which is where MJ went to work from '96-'98.

I think Bird & Magic (prime & career cut short, respectively) are a step down from the top 3. Russell was before my time, but I understand how and why he was revered. Duncan deserves a top 10 mention, or maybe even a top 5 mention. But like Russell, it seems like he's more of a "Best Teammate of All-Time" rather than "Best Player of All-Time."

Wilt (also before my time) and Shaq I put in a different category. Most Dominant, but not necessarily willing to do all the on- and off-court things it takes to win (imagine if Shaq had Duncan't mentality).

Also, I often wonder how we'd think of KG if he hadn't gotten hurt in '09 & if Perk hadn't gotten hurt in '10. Those Celtics would have won three in a row (and yeah, that would have rocketed Ray up the list of all-time greats. Talk about a guy with bad team/coach/teammate luck for most of his prime...)

Anyway, it's a good discussion. And like I've said, I still think MJ is the best there's ever been. But anybody who writes LBJ out of the conversation entirely is selling a marketing narrative.

 

[sammydabiz]

Whoever says Lebron is better than MJ is stupid..... Typing reasons why is a waste of my time

 

[Dogdeacon]

This is the very definition of a PR-manufactured narrative. Guys like Paxson, Armstrong and even Phil Jax said that Jordan was burned out after that last one for myriad reasons.

And it hadn't "stopped being a challenge" in the regular season, when the Bulls actually finished behind the Knicks, or in the playoffs, when both the Knicks & Suns took Chicago to 6 games (that Suns series was two plays from going 4-2 in the other direction, by the way).

I'm not suggesting that Jordan ran away from the Bulls when things were looking just a bit tougher. But this deification of the guy and the conventional wisdom that he's the best by miles is so galling to see for anyone who lived through the '80s, '90s and today.

The fact is, Jordan's career was charmed. He is very likely the best of all-time, but:

• Jordan won all six of his titles with one of the three best coaches of all time; never made a deep run with anyone else
• Jordan's best teammate was the most underrated player of all-time (Pippen), a top-20 player who is also the greatest perimeter defender of all-time
• Jordan's best team featured the two best defensive forwards (Pippen & Rodman) and an elite defensive PG (Harper)
• Jordan never made four straight finals (Bird & LBJ)
• When Jordan left the Bulls in '93, the team won only two fewer games the following season

LBJ & Kareem are definitely in the discussion with MJ.

Imagine if LBJ had a good coach at any point in his first 7-8 years (remember when Larry Brown was about to take over the Cavs in 2006?). Imagine if he had even one teammate as good as Pippen, or was surrounded by ridiculous shooters like Paxson, Armstrong, Hodges, Kerr, etc. Or if he didn't have to go against new zonal schemes & rules that penalize post-ups - remember when Mark Jackson would just back a guy down on the block and get a lay-up because sending help too early would result in an illegal defense call? Try guarding LeBron 1-v-1 on the block, which is where MJ went to work from '96-'98.

I think Bird & Magic (prime & career cut short, respectively) are a step down from the top 3. Russell was before my time, but I understand how and why he was revered. Duncan deserves a top 10 mention, or maybe even a top 5 mention. But like Russell, it seems like he's more of a "Best Teammate of All-Time" rather than "Best Player of All-Time."

Wilt (also before my time) and Shaq I put in a different category. Most Dominant, but not necessarily willing to do all the on- and off-court things it takes to win (imagine if Shaq had Duncan't mentality).

Also, I often wonder how we'd think of KG if he hadn't gotten hurt in '09 & if Perk hadn't gotten hurt in '10. Those Celtics would have won three in a row (and yeah, that would have rocketed Ray up the list of all-time greats. Talk about a guy with bad team/coach/teammate luck for most of his prime...)

Anyway, it's a good discussion. And like I've said, I still think MJ is the best there's ever been. But anybody who writes LBJ out of the conversation entirely is selling a marketing narrative.

All good points and I did say part of the reason Jordan took a sabbatical. Whether or not he was burned out I'd agree the odds he wins 8 in a row if he stays are low. Its just a sportsradio/internet debate, so no need to get all anyone who does X is Y about it = there are no trophies, or monies for the mythical title of GOAT. Arguing a belief strongly doesn't imply a huge differential and there is no measure* to quantify best ever. Every team sport player needs to be both lucky and good with Bill Russell probably being the best example.

The simple thing with Jordan is he was the most fun to watch and to date the best combo of stats/titles/domination, but I too didn't see Russell or Wilt so I'd certainly listen to someone who has seen them all. For me and most Jordan passed the eye test better than anyone and because he seemingly always delivered in the clutch those that watched him do it real-time have a VERY high bar for LeBron or anyone to try to surpass.

*PER? 27.91 Jordan 27.7 LeBron. But Jordan would be 29.1 just Chicago years, with next best retired Shaq at 26.4 = Jordan 10% better than anyone else. That's not a mile ahead but sounds about right. P.S. Shaq obviously isn't 2nd or 3rd best ever, but there are a over 10 guys 24.5-26.5 so Shaq is a proxy for Wilt, Kareem, Duncan etc..

 

[Excalibur]

I don't really know how to describe what I see as the difference other than to say this. I know Lebron James CAN take over a big game. I don't know if he WILL from night to night though. There was never a question with Jordan. Big game? He was taking it over. And no one was stopping that. Period.

To expand on this, one can watch LeBron and he will have games where it's obvious that he just doesn't have it that night, and for that night, he just doesn't scare you as much. I don't think I ever watched Jordan and said the same thing. Much like Tiger Woods in his prime, he could (and would) beat you when you were at your best and he wasn't.

In LeBron's defense, the league is MUCH deeper with talent now than it was in the 1990's. There are fewer nights off, and the 8th best team now is deeper and better than it was then.

 

[Cheeky]

This is the very definition of a PR-manufactured narrative . . .

Dude. Quality post. I enjoyed reading some of the detail of those Bulls' teams that I either didn't know or didn't remember. You've vaulted into the top 5 of my favorite posters here.

 

[Cheeky]

This is why he is beginning to frustrate me. He is so lackadaisical. MJ is on another level.

True, but, really, I think this reflects their personalities and world views.

LeBron has said multiple times that life isn't just basketball. I think he believes that. It's what he does, but it's not who he is and winning or losing at it won't affect his self regard.

Jordan, on the other hand, lived for basketball.

From a basketball perspective, laud Jordan. From a life perspective, James.

 

[Lefty2one]

In LeBron's defense, the league is MUCH deeper with talent now than it was in the 1990's. There are fewer nights off, and the 8th best team now is deeper and better than it was then.

It is deeper but the talent is grossly shifted to the Western Conference and has been for LeBron's entire career. Last year the East had two playoff teams that won 50 games, the West had 7 of 8 (and the 8th won 49 games). Ten times since 2001 the 8th seed in the East was not over .500. Only six times did that happen from 1985-1999.

I mean, just look at '96 for example. Jordan went through the Shaq & Penny Magic, Ewing's Knicks and Mourning/Hardaway/Riley Heat. The East was much more difficult when MJ played. The 2007 Cavs team LeBron dragged to the Finals probably wouldn't have won a series in the 90's, that team was horrible outside of LeBron.

And of course we can't forget that LeBron need to join up with two other stars to win his titles.

 

[Hoophound]

MJ made the careers of Phil Jackson and Scottie Pippen what they were. No telling where those two end up without him but I have zero doubt that Jordan would have been fine either way.

Someone said that LBJ is miles better than Kobe. I actually disagree. Kobe is so widely disliked that his career has been undervalued. The guy has won 5 titles. His will to win is like Jordan's. Sure, he shot too much his whole career and he wasn't as efficient as some other guys, but he still won 5 titles.

 

[lange10]

And of course we can't forget that LeBron need to join up with two other stars to win his titles.

Jordans team won 55 games the year after he left.....he didn't have talent on his teams? lol

Pippen maybe the most underrated player of all time. Better player than wade. Better surrounding cast than Lebron had even though Lebron had 2 all stars with him

 

[Matrim55]

no need to get all anyone who does X is Y about it

Fair point. My tone was **y there, and you have my apologies.

he seemingly always delivered in the clutch

Nobody remembers the '95 playoffs...

*PER? 27.91 Jordan 27.7 LeBron. But Jordan would be 29.1 just Chicago years, with next best retired Shaq at 26.4 = Jordan 10% better than anyone else. That's not a mile ahead but sounds about right. P.S. Shaq obviously isn't 2nd or 3rd best ever, but there are a over 10 guys 24.5-26.5 so Shaq is a proxy for Wilt, Kareem, Duncan etc..

PER is fun, but limited. It is, very simply, a measure of box score stats - one that's weighted heavily toward guys with high usage rates.

Also, going by PER means you believe Anthony Davis is currently having the greatest individual season of all time.

As I mentioned before, I'm a big fan of Box +/-, as are most of my friends in the analytics community. It's a long-term measure on how much better you make your team, which is the ultimate goal in any sport IMO.

Win shares per 48 and Single Season VORP are also really interesting to look at. IMO they disproportionately value "one man show" type of seasons, like Jordan in '88 or LeBron in '09.

 

[Lefty2one]

Jordans team won 55 games the year after he left.....he didn't have talent on his teams? lol

Pippen maybe the most underrated player of all time. Better player than wade. Better surrounding cast than Lebron had even though Lebron had 2 all stars with him

When did I say he didn't have talent on his teams? I'm saying he didn't go run off to find two other superstars to team up with after the Bad Bay Pistons beat his butt for a few years. He stuck around until his team got over the hump. LeBron took the easy way out.

These days Scottie Pippen might be the most OVERRATED player in NBA history. He was a great second banana but he was by no means was he going to be the top dog on a championship team. He didn't get his team out of the second round without MJ, that's the bottom line. There have been plenty of guys over the years that have put up impressive regular seasons that didn't take their teams very far in the postseason.

Pippen & Reggie Miller are the two golden children of the 90's. No one ever says anything bad about them now, they're untouchable. Probably the two most overrated players of that era.

 

[Matrim55]

There have been plenty of guys over the years that have put up impressive regular seasons that didn't take their teams very far in the postseason.

Like, for example, Michael Jordan. Before Scottie Pippen, Horace Grant and Phil Jackson got there.

 

[Huskies4ever]

I've grown up with Lebron being the guy every kid loved and rooted for. Personally I loved Iverson because of his heart and passion but as he faded I grew to appreciate Lebron. I love Lebron as a player. People give him crap bc of "the decision." He has admitted that was a big mistake, so he has clearly matured. He is far and away the best player in the NBA and he knows it. It shows because often times he sits plays out, relaxes on D, doesn't hustle, looks lack luster. This is why he is beginning to frustrate me. He is so lackadaisical. MJ is on another level. He is better than Kobe I think though. But Kobe and MJ had the killer instinct that Lebron doesn't have. I wouldn't call him soft but he's missing the motto they had. If he had that instinct I truly believe he could be better than MJ but you can't just develop the killer mindsight randomly one day.

MJ's greatest attributes weren't his athleticism or skillset. It was his competitiveness and his basketball IQ. He's got a high IQ, period. He had a will to win that was off the charts. That's what will keep him number one. Those intangibles as well as the stats. Kobe is close in that regard. He is a fierce competitor as well. LBJ is one of the greatest players in his overall game. He's a triple-double waiting to happen. He also has a high basketball IQ. He will go down as one of the best ever. It will be interesting to see how his career unfolds.

 

[David 76]

You know why older fans like Jordan better than James?
We've seen them both play.

 

[BUConn10]

A couple things....

1) Who has James made better? He didn't win a title until he joined forces with Wade and Bosh and he certainly didn't make either player better. If anything, he forced them to play lesser roles and contribute less than they could have. He hasn't made Irving or Love better through half a season.

2) Anthony Davis? In a list that includes James, Jordan, Bird and Magic? Give me a fakkin break. That's ridiculous.

I see Anthony Davis as the next in line for title of "Best player in the NBA" once Lebron begins to decline due to age. I really think he will jump Durant for that title. The kid is incredible, I think at his young age, there isnt a better asset in the entire NBA, he is the next in line for all time great PF. He reminds me of Kevin Garnett but better, which is scary.

 

[Deepster]

I see Anthony Davis as the next in line for title of "Best player in the NBA" once Lebron begins to decline due to age. I really think he will jump Durant for that title. The kid is incredible, I think at his young age, there isnt a better asset in the entire NBA, he is the next in line for all time great PF. He reminds me of Kevin Garnett but better, which is scary.

That may be true, but saying it now in that manner is like saying the greatest left handed hitters of all time are Ruth, Gehrig, Williams and soon Bryce Harper.

 

[StingLykOllie]

I see Anthony Davis as the next in line for title of "Best player in the NBA" once Lebron begins to decline due to age. I really think he will jump Durant for that title. The kid is incredible, I think at his young age, there isnt a better asset in the entire NBA, he is the next in line for all time great PF. He reminds me of Kevin Garnett but better, which is scary.

It's really unfortunate the Pels aren't on the national tv schedule more often

 

[tzznandrew]

This is the very definition of a PR-manufactured narrative. Guys like Paxson, Armstrong and even Phil Jax said that Jordan was burned out after that last one for myriad reasons.

And it hadn't "stopped being a challenge" in the regular season, when the Bulls actually finished behind the Knicks, or in the playoffs, when both the Knicks & Suns took Chicago to 6 games (that Suns series was two plays from going 4-2 in the other direction, by the way).

I'm not suggesting that Jordan ran away from the Bulls when things were looking just a bit tougher. But this deification of the guy and the conventional wisdom that he's the best by miles is so galling to see for anyone who lived through the '80s, '90s and today.

I think these are fair points. People like to reimagine Jordan's career as it wasn't. He was the best ever, IMO, but he didn't leave the game because he was bored.

The fact is, Jordan's career was charmed. He is very likely the best of all-time, but:

• Jordan won all six of his titles with one of the three best coaches of all time; never made a deep run with anyone else
• Jordan's best teammate was the most underrated player of all-time (Pippen), a top-20 player who is also the greatest perimeter defender of all-time
• Jordan's best team featured the two best defensive forwards (Pippen & Rodman) and an elite defensive PG (Harper)
• Jordan never made four straight finals (Bird & LBJ)
• When Jordan left the Bulls in '93, the team won only two fewer games the following season

The coach bit feels overrated. How many titles did Magic get with Riley? (4) Time will tell how good Spo is (I bet, not in Jackson's league), but I sort of imagine that Jackson was made by Jordan/Pippen/Shaq/Kobe rather than the other way around.

And as for Jordan not making 4 straight NBA finals...I guess that's technically true. But from 1990-1991 to 1997-1998 there were 6 seasons where Jordan played more than 20 regular season games. He went to the Finals, won them and NBA Finals MVP all 6. So I grant that your post is factually true, but it rings hollow given the general circumstances.

LBJ & Kareem are definitely in the discussion with MJ.

Imagine if LBJ had a good coach at any point in his first 7-8 years (remember when Larry Brown was about to take over the Cavs in 2006?). Imagine if he had even one teammate as good as Pippen, or was surrounded by ridiculous shooters like Paxson, Armstrong, Hodges, Kerr, etc.

I think Kareem certainly should be in that conversation. James can get there. To be fair, 2011 Wade is clearly in Pippen's league, and 2011 Bosh is better than Kukoc/Grant. His defense wasn't was good as Rodman's, but Bosh is a likely HOFer in his prime during the years he shared with James. With those teammates, James got to 4 Finals in a row, going 2-2.

Or if he didn't have to go against new zonal schemes & rules that penalize post-ups - remember when Mark Jackson would just back a guy down on the block and get a lay-up because sending help too early would result in an illegal defense call? Try guarding LeBron 1-v-1 on the block, which is where MJ went to work from '96-'98.

There are some fair points here. But the game was also far more physical in the 80s and early 90s. LeBron plays in a world without handchecking. If Jordan had those advantages...wow. So I think these, at worst, even out.

Also, I often wonder how we'd think of KG if he hadn't gotten hurt in '09 & if Perk hadn't gotten hurt in '10. Those Celtics would have won three in a row (and yeah, that would have rocketed Ray up the list of all-time greats. Talk about a guy with bad team/coach/teammate luck for most of his prime...)

Good point here. Never really thought of that counterfactual deeply.

 

[tzznandrew]

I think you're underselling the tail end of those Pistons teams, the Wade/Shaq Heat combo, Caron's Washington group and even the last of the Kidd/VC/KMart Nets. From 2003 through 2007ish, the East brought some real talent to the table.

I think you are overvaluing the Wizards (peaked at 45 wins) and Nets (peaked at 49, averaged 44.75 from 2004-2007), post-2004. The Pistons of 2004-2008 were quite good, averaging 56.6 wins per year. The Shaq/Wade combo was dead by the time James's teams could really compete. In 2006, when the Heat won, the Cavs got to 50 wins. The next year, the Heat only had 44 wins. The next: 15. I don't think any of these teams were real threats aside from the Pistons. A tough team to beat, but hardly a gauntlet.

From 2008 onward, though, I'll grant that it's been a trainwreck. But I'd say the same thing of the East through most of the '90s, when it was really just the Bulls & Knicks with lesser challengers like the Pacers, Heat, Cavs and (if you want to be charitable) the end of the Bad Boys Pistons and Bird's Celtics.

The Knicks dominated their division for over half a decade with the most overrated superstar in league history and literally no one else of historical note. Jordan's in-conference heyday didn't come against the heavyweights.

A quick contrast. In James 5 NBA Finals appearances, these were the number of 60 and 50 win teams in the conference, including his own, and .500 or below playoff teams:

2007: 0 60-win, 2 50-win / 3 .500 or below
2011: 1 60-win, 4 50-win / 2 .500 or below
2012: 0 60-win, ~3 50-win (pro-rated) / 0 .500 or below
2013: 1 60-win, 2 50-win / 1 .500 or below
2014: 0 60-win, 2 50-win / 1 .500 or below

The Eastern Conference, in Jordan's 6 NBA Finals appearances:
1991: 1 60-win, 3 50-win / 2 .500 or below
1992: 1 60-win, 4 50-win / 3 .500 or below
1993: 1 60-win, 3 50-win / 1 .500 or below
1996: 2 60-win, 3 50-win / 0 .500 or below
1997: 2 60-win, 6 50-win / 0 .500 or below
1998: 1 60-win, 5 50-win / 0 .500 or below

I'd say that the East of Jordan is certain not great, but far better the the East that LeBron has had to go through.