OT the impact of James

[Cheeky]

Last year, Miami is a finals team (albeit blown out).
This year, Miami is fading fast and is in a four way dogfight to even make the playoffs and are 22 and 30.
Net impact of LBJ leaving - appears to be the difference between being a finalist versus not making playoffs.

When MJ left the Bulls the first time, Bulls went 55 and 27 and made it to the Eastern finals, which they took to 7 games.
Second time he left, Bulls went 13 and 37 (confounding variables - Rodman, Pippen, and Jackson left at same time). Lockout year.

Just one man's opinion, and certainly subject to debate, but for my dollar, LBJ provides more value to his team than any player I've ever seen, with Magic and Jordan second and Bird third. Anthony Davis is moving quickly up the list.

Thing about LBJ - guy absolutely makes everybody around him better, and that's hard to quantify versus a guy like Kobe, who is flat out awesome, but who may not have the same impact on teammates.

 

[tzznandrew]

Last year, Miami is a finals team (albeit blown out).
This year, Miami is fading fast and is in a four way dogfight to even make the playoffs and are 22 and 30.
Net impact of LBJ leaving - appears to be the difference between being a finalist versus not making playoffs.

When MJ left the Bulls the first time, Bulls went 55 and 27 and made it to the Eastern finals, which they took to 7 games.
Second time he left, Bulls went 13 and 37 (confounding variables - Rodman, Pippen, and Jackson left at same time). Lockout year.

Just one man's opinion, and certainly subject to debate, but for my dollar, LBJ provides more value to his team than any player I've ever seen, with Magic and Jordan second and Bird third. Anthony Davis is moving quickly up the list.

Thing about LBJ - guy absolutely makes everybody around him better, and that's hard to quantify versus a guy like Kobe, who is flat out awesome, but who may not have the same impact on teammates.

Couple of things...and I largely agree about James as the best player in this generation (the post-Jordan generation).

Pippen in 1994 is better than anyone on Miami in 2015. Wade is older, Bosh is good, but not the same sort of impact player. Pippen became an MVP-candidate this year; Miami has no one like that.

Additionally, the Bulls got Kukoc that year, so they weren't exactly the same team. They evolved.

James did bring the Heat to the Finals last year, but he did so in a terribly weak conference. No way he gets them there out of the West. And here's where my point gets a little complicated (maybe undercut): the East of the mid-90s were really good. So one might have expected a bigger drop-off from the 1994 Bulls than the 2015 Heat. I just think the Heat are too old.

A testament to James' ability, but I don't think the analogy quite works.

 

[azescobar]

Not sure how old you guys are, but there really is no debate here. MJ is the real King, in any generation, and as great as Lebron is (and I like him, not a hater), he's not nearly on the same level as MJ. Period.

If MJ was in his prime today he would eviscerate the league and average even better numbers than he did during a physical, handcheck era of ball. This debate will continue until Lebron retires, but to me, it's not even a real discussion.

 

[Cheeky]

Lebron is . . . not nearly on the same level as MJ. Period.

Wow. Age based, they have virtually identical results and stats, with LeBron having more boards and assists and MJ more points.
Jordan never won without Pippen - a top 50 player all time. Also had best rebounder to ever play for a bit.

I can see the argument going either way, really, and the final chapters are still unwritten, but "not nearly on the same level" is just off the wall to me. That written, I respect your opinion - Jordan may separate himself from LeBron by his will to win. Put MJ's brain in LeBron's body and you can add 15-20% to each of LBJ's stats.

 

[tykurez]

When the Celtics had the Heat on the ropes in 2012 I thought that was a turning point in the Lebron book. He took over the rest of the playoffs like few others have before him. It's something Jordan was able to produce on a consistent basis in the big games.

But for whatever reason, there appears to be a small vulnerability in James' mental game that allows him to be taken out for stretches at a time. Maybe he's never had the talent surrounding him that Jordan had. Maybe he's just not the consistent killer Jordan seemed to be. All I know is that this conversation will continue for eternity unless he manages to win several more championships with Cleveland.

 

[Deepster]

Just one man's opinion, and certainly subject to debate, but for my dollar, LBJ provides more value to his team than any player I've ever seen, with Magic and Jordan second and Bird third. Anthony Davis is moving quickly up the list.

Thing about LBJ - guy absolutely makes everybody around him better, and that's hard to quantify versus a guy like Kobe, who is flat out awesome, but who may not have the same impact on teammates.

A couple things....

1) Who has James made better? He didn't win a title until he joined forces with Wade and Bosh and he certainly didn't make either player better. If anything, he forced them to play lesser roles and contribute less than they could have. He hasn't made Irving or Love better through half a season.

2) Anthony Davis? In a list that includes James, Jordan, Bird and Magic? Give me a fakkin break. That's ridiculous.

 

[azescobar]

I'm not knocking anyone's opinion, and can't deny Lebron's numbers. They are all-time great.

But if you watched both in their prime, not just highlights, but actual games, I don't think any objective person can really say that Lebron is on MJ's level. I just can't. That is actually the majority opinion for those over 30.

Re-watch Jordan's final performances, all 6 of them. Pay particular attention to his Game 5 against Phoenix; Game 6 in 1998 against Utah, and pretty much every game in between. I promise you that you won't think about Lebron the same way after watching those games, especially after you consider Lebron v. Mavs, and last year v. Spurs.

 

[StingLykOllie]

That is actually the majority opinion for those over 30.

I'm under 30, therefore have not actually seen MJ play a game in his prime, so I will not pretend to judge him. Personally, I can not objectively decide who is the greatest player in the history of a game that is over 120 years old. But what I do know, and what I can appreciate, is that Lebron James is the best player I have ever seen play the sport.

 

[Deepster]

I'm under 30, therefore have not actually seen MJ play a game in his prime, so I will not pretend to judge him. Personally, I can not objectively decide who is the greatest player in the history of a game that is over 120 years old. But what I do know, and what I can appreciate, is that Lebron James is the best player I have ever seen play the sport.

I don't really know how to describe what I see as the difference other than to say this. I know Lebron James CAN take over a big game. I don't know if he WILL from night to night though. There was never a question with Jordan. Big game? He was taking it over. And no one was stopping that. Period.

 

[StingLykOllie]

I don't really know how to describe what I see as the difference other than to say this. I know Lebron James CAN take over a big game. I don't know if he WILL from night to night though. There was never a question with Jordan. Big game? He was taking it over. And no one was stopping that. Period.

I can see that. You can infer and interpret whatever you want from stats, but it really comes down to what you see on the floor night in and night out.
Same with football, Peyton has the greatest stats of all time, but Brady (and it pains me to say it because I'm a Jets fan) is clearly the better QB because of his intangible attributes.

 

[tzznandrew]

I don't really know how to describe what I see as the difference other than to say this. I know Lebron James CAN take over a big game. I don't know if he WILL from night to night though. There was never a question with Jordan. Big game? He was taking it over. And no one was stopping that. Period.

That's the thing. There's this strange, mercurial-element to James' game. His 2007 Game 5 Game against the Pistons (fourth quarter and OT) may have been the best performance I've ever seen from a player. His Game 6 against the Celtics in 2011 was also up there as an all-time great performance.

But he had duds on the biggest stage. Jordan didn't. And Jordan has all-time great games to match--and surpass--LeBron.

Jordan's greatness is belied by the constant comparison to Kobe. He was lightyears ahead of Kobe as a player: more efficient and ruthless. And LeBron is also lightyears ahead of Kobe. But there is a gap in consistency between Jordan and LeBron that is hard for me to equate them.

 

[Cheeky]

1) Who has James made better? . . . He hasn't made Irving or Love better through half a season.

Irving is shooting career highs in both 2 and 3 point percentage this year. He's shooting the 3 at .415. You don't think James has anything to do with that? Mozgov, who has been in the league for almost 10 years, is putting up career highs for points, rebounds, block, 2pt%. Thompson is shooting his highest 2% by a lot. I'd argue that Irving is better at running the offense than he has ever been.
You can argue that other things are causing these upticks, but then you'd be like the South African leader claiming that HIV doesn't cause AIDS.

2) Anthony Davis? In a list that includes James, Jordan, Bird and Magic? Give me a fakkin break. That's ridiculous.

He's that good. When it's said and done, the kid will pas Bird and Magic.

 

[Cheeky]

but Brady (and it pains me to say it because I'm a Jets fan) is clearly the better QB because of his intangible attributes.

I don't know.
4 Super Bowl rings are pretty tangible.

 

[tzznandrew]

He's that good. When it's said and done, the kid will pas Bird and Magic.

He may. That's hyperbolic only in that careers are long and lots can happen. Kid is the real deal all around.

His real competition is Duncan. Can he pass Duncan? I don't know. But I think he's the first PF that could theoretically give his career a run for its money.

 

[Cheeky]

A couple things....

1) Who has James made better? He didn't win a title until he joined forces with Wade and Bosh . . .

Old Wade and overrated Bosh.
Proof?
Miami might not make the playoffs this year.
When Jordan retired the first time, his team took the Knicks to the EC game 7 final.
So Jordan was arguably the difference between that and a title - not a hug gap.
LBJ appears to have been the difference between title game and golfing.

 

[HuskiesAllDay]

A couple things....

1) Who has James made better? He didn't win a title until he joined forces with Wade and Bosh and he certainly didn't make either player better. If anything, he forced them to play lesser roles and contribute less than they could have. He hasn't made Irving or Love better through half a season.

2) Anthony Davis? In a list that includes James, Jordan, Bird and Magic? Give me a fakkin break. That's ridiculous.

THIS. Its always brought up and trumpeted by James fans, but if you really think about it, who has he really made better? Not Wade, not Bosh, not Mario Chalmers. Not Mo Williams, Varejao actually got much better when he left. Still very early but not Kyrie or certainly Love. Not Waiters. JR Smith?

These are all of his better teamates, but even the role guys. Who was a prominent role player with Lebron but fell off after he left? Or was a nobody and all of a sudden became someone once Lebron got there. None that I can think of.

Its completely objective, but the stats dont show any of these guys getting better, and just from the "eye test, Bosh and Love and Wade for sure were better players before they started playing with Lebron.

Obviously very rushed and off the top of my head, so im sure i missed a few guys, but overall this doesnt scream, "he makes his teamates so much better"

 

[Deepster]

Irving is shooting career highs in both 2 and 3 point percentage this year. He's shooting the 3 at .415. You don't think James has anything to do with that? Mozgov, who has been in the league for almost 10 years, is putting up career highs for points, rebounds, block, 2pt%. Thompson is shooting his highest 2% by a lot. I'd argue that Irving is better at running the offense than he has ever been.
You can argue that other things are causing these upticks, but then you'd be like the South African leader claiming that HIV doesn't cause AIDS.


He's that good. When it's said and done, the kid will pas Bird and Magic.

Irving's #'s? He's 22. He should be improving each year. John Wall is 23 and had career bests in 2 and 3 pt fg% when he was 22 also. He didn't have Lebron James next to him.

As for the others? I'm sure James helps Mozgov average 1 pt more a night. And having Kevin Love draw a defender out of the paint could too.

Your points don't hold water. Especially the ones dripping with hyperbole like "better at running the offense than he has ever been".

 

[StingLykOllie]

I don't know.
4 Super Bowl rings are pretty tangible.

Thats a tangible result of intangible attributes

 

[CTBasketball]

You absolutely cannot compare Michael Jordan's Bulls to LeBron James's Heat. That is such a false comparison - the Gods of science are throwing up in their dojo right now.

 

[Matrim55]

MJ won 1 career playoff game without Pippen. LBJ made it all the way to the finals when his best teammate was Zydrynas Ilgauskas.

And the whole "who has James made better?" argument is too focused on individual numbers. Look at offensive & defensive team ratings, efficiency and long-term Box +/-. His numbers there are staggering.

 

[azescobar]

I'll bow out at this point. I just recommend that the under 30 crowd check their local listings of ESPN Classic, watch a few Jordan games from 91-98 (you can skip the Bulls 94-96 seasons) and report back to the group.

 

[tzznandrew]

MJ won 1 career playoff game without Pippen. LBJ made it all the way to the finals when his best teammate was Zydrynas Ilgauskas.

And the whole "who has James made better?" argument is too focused on individual numbers. Look at offensive & defensive team ratings, efficiency and long-term Box +/-. His numbers there are staggering.

To be fair with that Pippen point, Pippen came in after Jordan played 3 seasons...one of which he was injured.

And the 1980s East was loaded. Bird's Celtics, Thomas's Pistons, in addition to the Hawks, Sixers, and Bucks in Jordan's early days. The 2000s-2010s East has been historically bad. So it's no surprise that James was able to take a team through that conference.

 

[Matrim55]

To be fair with that Pippen point, Pippen came in after Jordan played 3 seasons...one of which he was injured.

And the 1980s East was loaded. Bird's Celtics, Thomas's Pistons, in addition to the Hawks, Sixers, and Bucks in Jordan's early days.

Very fair.

The 2000s-2010s East has been historically bad.

I think you're underselling the tail end of those Pistons teams, the Wade/Shaq Heat combo, Caron's Washington group and even the last of the Kidd/VC/KMart Nets. From 2003 through 2007ish, the East brought some real talent to the table.

From 2008 onward, though, I'll grant that it's been a trainwreck. But I'd say the same thing of the East through most of the '90s, when it was really just the Bulls & Knicks with lesser challengers like the Pacers, Heat, Cavs and (if you want to be charitable) the end of the Bad Boys Pistons and Bird's Celtics.

The Knicks dominated their division for over half a decade with the most overrated superstar in league history and literally no one else of historical note. Jordan's in-conference heyday didn't come against the heavyweights.

So it's no surprise that James was able to take a team through that conference.

Yeah, I disagree. His best teammates were Zydrunas Ilgauskas and Mo Williams, and his best coach has been Eric Spoelstra. I think you're underrating what LBJ has done.

 

[lange10]

I've grown up with Lebron being the guy every kid loved and rooted for. Personally I loved Iverson because of his heart and passion but as he faded I grew to appreciate Lebron. I love Lebron as a player. People give him crap bc of "the decision." He has admitted that was a big mistake, so he has clearly matured. He is far and away the best player in the NBA and he knows it. It shows because often times he sits plays out, relaxes on D, doesn't hustle, looks lack luster. This is why he is beginning to frustrate me. He is so lackadaisical. MJ is on another level. He is better than Kobe I think though. But Kobe and MJ had the killer instinct that Lebron doesn't have. I wouldn't call him soft but he's missing the motto they had. If he had that instinct I truly believe he could be better than MJ but you can't just develop the killer mindsight randomly one day.

 

[Dogdeacon]

The basis for this comparison done at the halfway point of the season is inherently flawed. So if the Heat make the playoffs (50-50 at worst) and win a series or two is Jordan equal to LeBron? The 2011 NBA Champion Dallas Mavericks (57-25) lost Tyson Chandler and then went 36-30 and lost in the first round. Is Tyson Chandler the best ever?

Part of the reason Jordan took a sabbatical was it stopped being a challenge. With him on the court the Bulls won 3 in a row and were going to cruise to a 4th and beyond. They were a vastly better team than the Heat. No time off and very arguably the Bulls win 8 in a row with Jordan and his championship total is close to Russell (consensus-wise the only valid counter-argument to best ever at this point). LeBron left the Heat partially because he knew their championship window was closing with or without him. Very different.