OT: The Belmont and The Triple Crown

[RockyMTblue2]

Rocky, my wife follows horse racing incredibly intensely.She follows it year round in the US and abroad. She studies the lineage, the genetics, and watches racing daily on the HRC on satellite. The make up of this year's collection of horses was excellent. Note how many entries turned out for the Derby and then stayed for the other races. Their trainers truly expected they had quality horses and believed they could take a TC race. Another part that American Pharoah overcame was larger fields than Secretariat faced. Watch those old races and it is amazing how few the entries including at the Derby. Secretariat simply was a beast of an animal but American Pharoah faced some challenges Secretariat never faced including running the Derby from the 17th slot, those torrentials and the muddy to sopping wet Preakness track, and then ran away in the Belmont from start to finish with more left in the tank while gliding in at the line than any other horse. It was an awesome TC this year and a real test of horses and racing.

I won't belabor it Ice. You find me a thoroughbred who people prep for the derby whose lineage isn't excellent. Thoroughbreds are pretty inbred on the sire side. Heck, a thoroughbred I owned and rode for years, retired off the track as a 4 year old having never won a race. He had impeccable breeding and was fast a sin for 3/4 of a mile, then not so much. On the quality of this year's crop, I'll stick with the racing insider and the national trainers he knows. The Derby field was pretty large, but that supports my point - everybody thought they had a shot in this indifferent breed year. The field fell off in the Preakness and those very sloppy conditions were something Pharoah was comfortable with. Still, without doubt he dominated on his way to the Triple Crown.

 

[Icebear]

American Pharoah ran from the 17 slot in a field of 18 (far outside), from the 1 slot at the Preakness in a field of 8, and the fifth slot in a field of 8 at Belmont.

 

[Icebear]

I won't belabor it Ice. You find me a thoroughbred who people prep for the derby whose lineage isn't excellent. Thoroughbreds are pretty inbred on the sire side. Heck, a thoroughbred I owned and rode for years, retired off the track as a 4 year old having never won a race. He had impeccable breeding and was fast a sin for 3/4 of a mile, then not so much. On the quality of this year's crop, I'll stick with the racing insider and the national trainers he knows. The Derby field was pretty large, but that supports my point - everybody thought they had a shot in this indifferent breed year. The field fell off in the Preakness and those very sloppy conditions were something Pharoah was comfortable with. Still, without doubt he dominated on his way to the Triple Crown.

Of course it isn't but rarely do you find bad genetics. Nor did I mean it is the only thing my wife follows. What was clear this year compared to the last couple is that coming off the two year old season is there was a lot of speed and no clear favorite and higher expectation than most years. Many of those numbers turned quality times just not against a great horse.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Of course it isn't but rarely do you find bad genetics

?? Of course it isn't?? What isn't?

PS. This is starting to feel like a tennis match on the red clay of Rolande G!

 

[Icebear]

?? Of course it isn't?? What isn't?

PS. This is starting to feel like a tennis match on the red clay of Rolande G!

Of course genetics isn't the only marker because as you said almost all have great genes although my wife can tell you some of the lines where those lines, also, mark fragile horses.

Not meaning to ping pong with you but your thoughts are giving me a chance today to further flush out some of my thoughts about the amazing season this has been for AP and the challenges he faced and overcame. A truly great horse.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Of course genetics isn't the only marker because as you said almost all have great genes although my wife can tell you some of the lines where those lines, also, mark fragile horses.

Not meaning to ping pong with you but your thoughts are giving me a chance today to further flush out some of my thoughts about the amazing season this has been for AP and the challenges he faced and overcame. A truly great horse.

Ping Pong is always a pleasure with you Ice. So Pong away ... remember Pong? I love the look of AP and his temperament is amazing. Did you catch him "being interviewed" between the Jock and Baffert on Monday's (I think) Good Morning America. Both were totally at ease with AP a nip away from an ear removal!

 

[OldAlum]

Some of you guys are hard to impress!

AP actually has a very interesting pedigree: Lots of stamina (including a Belmont winner) on top (sire lines) and more speed through his dam.
Re: Secretariat's heart. There is actually a "big heart" gene in TBs. It is carried on the X chromosome (tho not inherited simply) and other horses were found to have large but otherwise normal hearts which probably did give an advantage. This also helps explain why Secretariat is also known more for his daughters - only they could inherit that gene from him.

 

[Waquoit]

I have a brother who has worked race handicapping and track jobs of "putting the field together" for 35+ years and he and the trainers he knows have been shaking there heads over this bunch since very early this year.

What do you mean, "shaking their heads over this bunch"? That this was a sub-par group? That's baloney.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

What do you mean, "shaking their heads over this bunch"? That this was a sub-par group? That's baloney.

Hey, I'm not the sources, so I don't mean anything but what I reported. You can't fight with me over this Waquoit; I won't engage. Enjoy the Triple Crown.

 

[Waquoit]

Hey, I'm not the sources, so I don't mean anything but what I reported. You can't fight with me over this Waquoit; I won't engage. Enjoy the Triple Crown.

Well, you've already engaged, I was just asking for clarification. But you are literally the only person I've read or heard this entire TC season that has disparaged this crop of three-year-olds. Even writers who have always been quick to label crops as mediocre didn't go there this year.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Well, you've already engaged, I was just asking for clarification. But you are literally the only person I've read or heard this entire TC season that has disparaged this crop of three-year-olds. Even writers who have always been quick to label crops as mediocre didn't go there this year.

Hey, I've already confessed to being a curmudgeon and way out on a limb on this. Do I have to eat gravel in the parking lot! Sheesh! But, yes, what I said about this year's crop is from very inside, very reliable sources that, of course, will remain nameless. BUT I freely admit that the racing industry is full of pettiness and backbiting and feuds of all sorts. Still, my brother has been on the professional or track side of the business all his life, and his friends among the trainers are a very good sampling of the elite of racing.

 

[Waquoit]

Hey, if you are going to post controversial opinions on a public board you have to expect some push back. That's the game.

 

[meyers7]

Arrrggggghhhh. This AP stuff is driving me batty. AP is AP Indy. American Pharoah is American Pharoah. Some of you are acting like S. Carolina fans.

 

[Aluminny69]

This Is What It Would Look Like If American Pharoah Raced Secretariat

 

[Beemer]

I watched Secretariat win the Triple Crown. He was truly a magnificent horse- big, powerful and yes charismatic.

IMO no horse, not even Seattle Slew, Affirmed or American Pharoah even comes close.

 

[Waquoit]

Arrrggggghhhh. This AP stuff is driving me batty. AP is AP Indy. American Pharoah is American Pharoah. Some of you are acting like S. Carolina fans.

No one ever called AP Indy, "AP". They called him AP Indy or Indy for short.

 

[MilfordHusky]

I watched Secretariat win the Triple Crown. He was truly a magnificent horse- big, powerful and yes charismatic.

IMO no horse, not even Seattle Slew, Affirmed or American Pharoah even comes close.

Agreed. Secretariat's record times still stand 42 years later, which is incredible. He was a beautiful, big, reddish brown horse who was a freak of nature. In his time, he was known as "Sexy," which is an unusual moniker for a horse. Like Sham, he had an oversized heart, close to 2.75 times the average. His greatness stands the test of time. The videos of the Triple Crown races clearly show his speed. In the Preakness, he passed the entire field with a 20-second burst of speed that I have never seen matched.

But this is not to demean American Pharaoh. He's an outstanding horse in his own right. Though I'm admittedly not an expert, there is something that comes to my eye from watching the many replays. Secretariat was a big, powerful horse, unlike any other. Pharaoh has a distinctive stride. He seems to glide smoothly down the track. His ease of motion and the rate at which he covers distance make him special too.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

He seems to glide smoothly down the track. His ease of motion and the rate at which he covers distance make him special too.

Perhaps, but most well configured, large thoroughbreds cover ground exceptionally well. But, yes, he is a beautiful horse. On the moving part, if you study film/video of a race and look at the Jocks many seem suspended in the air - their heads are almost never bobbing up and down; yes, some of that is their legs acting like shock absorbers, but I'd like to see a scientific measure of this sometime. I first gained an appreciation of this when I grew confident enough of my first thoroughbred enough to really let him run. I couldn't believe how much it felt like being suspended over the ground going very, very fast! His registry name was butt ugly: Diplomatic Bag! To us he was Thunder Bay when we entered him in local horse events, but for 17 years he was "Bud".

 

[Beemer]

Agreed. Secretariat's record times still stand 42 years later, which is incredible. He was a beautiful, big, reddish brown horse who was a freak of nature. In his time, he was known as "Sexy," which is an unusual moniker for a horse. Like Sham, he had an oversized heart, close to 2.75 times the average. His greatness stands the test of time. The videos of the Triple Crown races clearly show his speed. In the Preakness, he passed the entire field with a 20-second burst of speed that I have never seen matched.

But this is not to demean American Pharaoh. He's an outstanding horse in his own right. Though I'm admittedly not an expert, there is something that comes to my eye from watching the many replays. Secretariat was a big, powerful horse, unlike any other. Pharaoh has a distinctive stride. He seems to glide smoothly down the track. His ease of motion and the rate at which he covers distance make him special too.

I clearly remember Secretariat absolutely destroying the field in the Belmont- a 31.5 length victory that looked even bigger than it was. Turcotte just turned him loose and away he went. Everybody else was racing for second that day.

 

[meyers7]

No one ever called AP Indy, "AP". They called him AP Indy or Indy for short.

Doesn't matter.

 

[MilfordHusky]

I clearly remember Secretariat absolutely destroying the field in the Belmont- a 31.5 length victory that looked even bigger than it was. Turcotte just turned him loose and away he went. Everybody else was racing for second that day.

Or maybe they were racing for 3rd. It was a small field, but outclassed by a quantum leap.

I can hear the conversation now:

Owner: "My horse finished second to the great Secretariat."

Casual observer: "Wow! That's very impressive. How far back was your horse?"

Owner: "Um, 31 lengths."

 

[Icebear]

Agreed. Secretariat's record times still stand 42 years later, which is incredible. He was a beautiful, big, reddish brown horse who was a freak of nature. In his time, he was known as "Sexy," which is an unusual moniker for a horse. Like Sham, he had an oversized heart, close to 2.75 times the average. His greatness stands the test of time. The videos of the Triple Crown races clearly show his speed. In the Preakness, he passed the entire field with a 20-second burst of speed that I have never seen matched.

But this is not to demean American Pharaoh. He's an outstanding horse in his own right. Though I'm admittedly not an expert, there is something that comes to my eye from watching the many replays. Secretariat was a big, powerful horse, unlike any other. Pharaoh has a distinctive stride. He seems to glide smoothly down the track. His ease of motion and the rate at which he covers distance make him special too.

American Pharoah glides like Maya Moore running down the court: effortless, smooth and far faster than you thought she was going.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

I wish they would not race him and that the syndicate would pay more to have him retired.