OT: Teachers and Students. Group Projects.

[Chin Diesel]

As a youngin' I barely remember ever having to do group projects in HS or college, but it seems to be all the rage now.

Part of me realizes today's HS and college students have less group social interactions overall, and reality is, you will be working/collaborating with adults throughout your professional career. So, learning how to work on a project as a group has value.

Part of me says it's an easy way for teachers to reduce their workload of grading assignments outside of the class day or work day.

Part of me thinks, at the university or private HS level, it's an easy way to get more students in to a class, and thus more tuition revenue, without increasing teacher or TA workload for grading assignments.

Regardless, as the student, it blows. About half the classes I took for my master's had a group project as part of the course. One of my kids is finishing up a bachelor's degree and has had a bunch of group project in the upper level classes.

I really only ran in to one major issue with a project. We had a team of three and it was a three-part assignment. We agreed each of us would take the lead on one part of the project while the other two would provide editing or clarification for each part. One part of our assignment was flagged by Turnitin for high levels of duplication (possible plagarism). We all had to have individual conferences with the department head. I said I had no idea if it was plagiarized or not, but the language I saw in that part of the project seemed normal compared to emails, texts, messages, etc. I had seen from my classmate.
Biggest thing to me though is getting everyone on a time schedule as the project is due. If I'm paying tuition, I'd like to do coursework at my pace and when my schedule allows and not have grades impacted solely due to the team members individual availability.

Anywho, arguing over this team's performance relative to expectation, crowd size or enthusiasm, and Canadians cheating at curling, has gotten boring to me and there's 50 some hours until the next game, so I'm bringing up this topic.

 

[husky429]

I didn't give group projects as a teacher. My wife doesn't give them as a professot. And I hated them as a student.There's always one tool who gets an A and does no work.

There's a lot better ways to encourage collaboration and discussion. It's just lazy, bad pedagogy.

 

[Jaydumo20]

Im a 2nd year grad student in Bradley Univ. Psych.therapy-neuroscience and coordinating group work is my least favorite part by far. @husky429 you nailed it. Theres always 1.
If it were a group of 3 there'd be that one dude. If it were a group of 30.... there'd still only be that one dude! Can't outrun that dude

 

[Chin Diesel]

I didn't give group projects as a teacher. My wife doesn't give them as a professot. And I hated them as a student.There's always one tool who gets an A and does no work.

There's a lot better ways to encourage collaboration and discussion. It's just lazy, bad pedagogy.

Im a 2nd year grad student in Bradley Univ. Psych.therapy-neuroscience and coordinating group work is my least favorite part by far. @husky429 you nailed it. Theres always 1.
If it were a group of 3 there'd be that one dude. If it were a group of 30.... there'd still only be that one dude! Can't outrun that dude

So, they're good for teaching them about adult employment???

 

[Lanphoon]

Got my B.A. in Economics from UConn and never had group projects. Not even with any of the W requirements (if that is still a thing, lol) to graduate. But getting my MBA at U Hartford all the Marketing and Management classes typically had a group project. Usually a group of 3 or 4. I didn't mind them but it was very time consuming and trying to get common meet up times could be a pain. Since I was that guy who wanted to be in control, I once had to write up two different 30+ page projects over Thanksgiving weekend. But this was 35 years ago and there wasn't the group sharing technology that there is today.

 

[HooperScooper]

Got my B.A. in Economics from UConn and never had group projects. Not even with any of the W requirements (if that is still a thing, lol) to graduate. But getting my MBA at U Hartford all the Marketing and Management classes typically had a group project. Usually a group of 3 or 4. I didn't mind them but it was very time consuming and trying to get common meet up times could be a pain. Since I was that guy who wanted to be in control, I once had to write up two different 30+ page projects over Thanksgiving weekend. But this was 35 years ago and there wasn't the group sharing technology that there is today.

I echo everything you said about projects for my full time MBA. And it was just about as long ago as you. Do they still do as many group projects in graduate business school today?

 

[navery12]

As a youngin' I barely remember ever having to do group projects in HS or college, but it seems to be all the rage now.

Part of me realizes today's HS and college students have less group social interactions overall, and reality is, you will be working/collaborating with adults throughout your professional career. So, learning how to work on a project as a group has value.

Part of me says it's an easy way for teachers to reduce their workload of grading assignments outside of the class day or work day.

Part of me thinks, at the university or private HS level, it's an easy way to get more students in to a class, and thus more tuition revenue, without increasing teacher or TA workload for grading assignments.

Regardless, as the student, it blows. About half the classes I took for my master's had a group project as part of the course. One of my kids is finishing up a bachelor's degree and has had a bunch of group project in the upper level classes.

I really only ran in to one major issue with a project. We had a team of three and it was a three-part assignment. We agreed each of us would take the lead on one part of the project while the other two would provide editing or clarification for each part. One part of our assignment was flagged by Turnitin for high levels of duplication (possible plagarism). We all had to have individual conferences with the department head. I said I had no idea if it was plagiarized or not, but the language I saw in that part of the project seemed normal compared to emails, texts, messages, etc. I had seen from my classmate.
Biggest thing to me though is getting everyone on a time schedule as the project is due. If I'm paying tuition, I'd like to do coursework at my pace and when my schedule allows and not have grades impacted solely due to the team members individual availability.

Anywho, arguing over this team's performance relative to expectation, crowd size or enthusiasm, and Canadians cheating at curling, has gotten boring to me and there's 50 some hours until the next game, so I'm bringing up this topic.

Curious what makes you think it's all the rage now. I went back to school in the fall to change careers and become a teacher and so far it's been the consensus in all 6 classes I've taken to avoid group projects because they're ineffective

 

[alexd]

Teacher and student group project??

Indiana high school employee arrested after husband allegedly catches her with student

Investigators said they later learned that the suspect had sexually abused another child at least five times.

foxbaltimore.com

 

[Chin Diesel]

Curious what makes you think it's all the rage now. I went back to school in the fall to change careers and become a teacher and so far it's been the consensus in all 6 classes I've taken to avoid group projects because they're ineffective

My personal experience with grad school which just finished up in the Fall and listening to kids who are currently doing their undergrad at several different universities in different states.

I agree group projects stink. My personal opinion is it is a way for universities, especially if it's an online class, to get more students enrolled and more tuition, without adding to the faculty's workload.

 

[UCan3]

As a youngin' I barely remember ever having to do group projects in HS or college, but it seems to be all the rage now.

Part of me realizes today's HS and college students have less group social interactions overall, and reality is, you will be working/collaborating with adults throughout your professional career. So, learning how to work on a project as a group has value.

Part of me says it's an easy way for teachers to reduce their workload of grading assignments outside of the class day or work day.

Part of me thinks, at the university or private HS level, it's an easy way to get more students in to a class, and thus more tuition revenue, without increasing teacher or TA workload for grading assignments.

Regardless, as the student, it blows. About half the classes I took for my master's had a group project as part of the course. One of my kids is finishing up a bachelor's degree and has had a bunch of group project in the upper level classes.

I really only ran in to one major issue with a project. We had a team of three and it was a three-part assignment. We agreed each of us would take the lead on one part of the project while the other two would provide editing or clarification for each part. One part of our assignment was flagged by Turnitin for high levels of duplication (possible plagarism). We all had to have individual conferences with the department head. I said I had no idea if it was plagiarized or not, but the language I saw in that part of the project seemed normal compared to emails, texts, messages, etc. I had seen from my classmate.
Biggest thing to me though is getting everyone on a time schedule as the project is due. If I'm paying tuition, I'd like to do coursework at my pace and when my schedule allows and not have grades impacted solely due to the team members individual availability.

Anywho, arguing over this team's performance relative to expectation, crowd size or enthusiasm, and Canadians cheating at curling, has gotten boring to me and there's 50 some hours until the next game, so I'm bringing up this topic.

this issue isn’t nearly as complicated as it turns out that it was for you. You have things like peer evaluations and when things really go south with plagiarism, they should not be calling you in there, but rather each person identifies which part of the paper they did. Then teacher runs those sections individually through a real ChatGPT checker in combination with the other method, and then you address with the individual(s) that may have violated academic policies.

Team projects can work fine as long as you have an experienced instructor. When you don’t it can really screw up a good team project.

And unfortunately, most team projects work good probably 85% but the 15% where it doesn’t — yes they can really be unfair and a pain in the butt, but there are methods to rectify.

 

[JMick]

I did tons of group projects in middle school, high school and college. I'd say 75% of my projects (besides papers - those were always solo) were a group project.

Always hated them but I find myself in the same position now as an employee as I did then as a student. A handful of people hold everything up and keep it working while the rest are, at best, just there.

 

[jleves]

Im a 2nd year grad student in Bradley Univ. Psych.therapy-neuroscience and coordinating group work is my least favorite part by far. @husky429 you nailed it. Theres always 1.
If it were a group of 3 there'd be that one dude. If it were a group of 30.... there'd still only be that one dude! Can't outrun that dude

We had a group coding project in a Pascal class back in the 80s. Coding came naturally to me, but not any else on the project. We had broken the project up into 4 mostly equal parts. The day before the project was due, my group came together and the other three hadn't gotten 1/10 of their sections done. I pulled an all nighter and wrote about 1000 lines of code and we turned in a fully operational product. Professor could tell from the code who did the work. I got an A, everyone else got a B and they did not complain.

 

[SCNCHuskie]

It depends on the subject. As a math teacher, the majority of classes and assignments were individual. However, we did a lot of collaborative work, but rarely a group assignment. I always graded students individually. When I taught other subjects, I did a lot of group work, but seldom had a group grade. It is possible to have a group project with five individual tasks, which were graded individually utilizing a rubric.

https://jukeboxgraduates.weebly.com/past-classroom-activities.html

 

[Lafayette]

As a professor I taught AI and group projects were necessary but also emblematic of the real world where I work is all teams.

Like others have said this is highly contextual to the subject.

 

[Minicoop69]

I taught MS and HS for 17 years and seldom did group work it at all. I despised it as a student and as a teacher it was awful with most kids letting just 1 student do all the work.

This year I am now teaching PLTW engineering classes and I am using group work much more so. These set of classes are more project based so working as a team is crucial. They are graded individually, but they have to work together to get their materials done. I am liking it much more than I thought I would.

 

[Chin Diesel]

this issue isn’t nearly as complicated as it turns out that it was for you. You have things like peer evaluations and when things really go south with plagiarism, they should not be calling you in there, but rather each person identifies which part of the paper they did. Then teacher runs those sections individually through a real ChatGPT checker in combination with the other method, and then you address with the individual(s) that may have violated academic policies.

Team projects can work fine as long as you have an experienced instructor. When you don’t it can really screw up a good team project.

And unfortunately, most team projects work good probably 85% but the 15% where it doesn’t — yes they can really be unfair and a pain in the butt, but there are methods to rectify.

It wasn't too complicated. While we didn't have peer evaluations, we did explain how each part of the project was led by a different team member and it was only one section which was flagged for possible plagiarism. Our professor, who was the dept head, talked to us individually about it, and then it was dropped. We ended up with an A for the project and I received an A in the class.

 

[kemba]

Curious what makes you think it's all the rage now. I went back to school in the fall to change careers and become a teacher and so far it's been the consensus in all 6 classes I've taken to avoid group projects because they're ineffective

In high school it’s definitely all the rage now. Not necessarily just actual long projects but doing regular work in groups. Reaction from students and teachers is mixed at best, but it’s definitely being pushed by the higher ups. I’m not a math teacher but in math especially many places implement something from a book called building thinking classrooms that the kids are working in random groups of 3 every single day unless they are taking a test.

 

[husky429]

In high school it’s definitely all the rage now. Not necessarily just actual long projects but doing regular work in groups. Reaction from students and teachers is mixed at best, but it’s definitely being pushed by the higher ups. I’m not a math teacher but in math especially many places implement something from a book called building thinking classrooms that the kids are working in random groups of 3 every single day unless they are taking a test.

It's definitely not all the rage now.

 

[M.S.G.]

In high school it’s definitely all the rage now. Not necessarily just actual long projects but doing regular work in groups. Reaction from students and teachers is mixed at best, but it’s definitely being pushed by the higher ups. I’m not a math teacher but in math especially many places implement something from a book called building thinking classrooms that the kids are working in random groups of 3 every single day unless they are taking a test.

I think what he may be getting at is "station" work, which is essentially what drove me out of high school several years ago.

I remember telling my principal that station work is for teachers who can't teach, he wasn't amused by my 100% accurate observation.

 

[TerryBoyz]

I’m 3 classes into a masters in supply chain mgmt online after about 20 years since my masters.
So far all 3 classes had a group project. In addition to the student who is always busy with something else describing as more important to them, I noticed a bit of passive aggressive and needing to control final product.
current group is so indecisive. Literally takes 5 text messages to decide date/time to meet.
lastly finding the younger students aren’t really curious, just go by what the directions state.

 

[twiceahusky]

In high school it’s definitely all the rage now. Not necessarily just actual long projects but doing regular work in groups. Reaction from students and teachers is mixed at best, but it’s definitely being pushed by the higher ups. I’m not a math teacher but in math especially many places implement something from a book called building thinking classrooms that the kids are working in random groups of 3 every single day unless they are taking a test.

Great book, great ideas and discussion on how to implement it and why it works … I do a fair amount of group learning in class (maybe weekly but never graded group projects). But man, when a class is disinterested, lacking prerequisite skills and/or intellectual curiosity it can be tough sledding.

I get some great collaboration at times, and some super frustrating screwing around. Worst case I figure it’s worth the risk … those screwing around in groups might not be making meaningful connections alone at their desks. I still have a lot to learn.

I hope Peter Liljedahl has it right. Those who brought new math to my older sister failed her .

 

[twiceahusky]

I think what he may be getting at is "station" work, which is essentially what drove me out of high school several years ago.

I remember telling my principal that station work is for teachers who can't teach, he wasn't amused by my 100% accurate observation.

I’m not exactly sure what you mean by “station work”, but nobody would ever read Building Thinking Classrooms and boil it down to station work. Lots of subtle yet deliberate teacher moves that get students working, communicating, sharing within and across groups.

Makes me wonder … was it station work that drove you out of teaching, or your closed-mindedness towards taking risks and expanding your effectiveness in the classroom? Claiming to have a “100% accurate observation” is a red flag.

 

[temery]

 

[UCan3]

It wasn't too complicated. While we didn't have peer evaluations, we did explain how each part of the project was led by a different team member and it was only one section which was flagged for possible plagiarism. Our professor, who was the dept head, talked to us individually about it, and then it was dropped. We ended up with an A for the project and I received an A in the class.

Okay cool then it appeared it was handled appropriately in my opinion.. Good to hear sometimes can go sideways!

The problem with AI is that even the best AI detectors aren’t perfect. So when push comes to shove it’s very difficult to say 100% this is 100% AI..

My wife who is a teacher caught a student copy and pasting something from the Internet, Word for Word and when confronted the student who was like “no I did not do this” - and was ready to fight it until the bitter end.

It is a difficult time for teachers students, and everybody as they navigate this area. I agree team projects inject a little bit of more complication, but ultimately they can work well