OT - Syracuse making major academic program cuts

[nelsonmuntz]

This is more of a reflection of changing demographics than Syracuse being bad at basketball 🏀

I think anything bad that happens at Syracuse or BCU should at least be peripherally connected to their terrible athletics. The level of suck that emanates from their athletic programs is insidious, and will impact an entire university.

That said, Syracuse was a major player back when NY metro was 25% of the country's GDP and kids who didn't get into the Ivies needed a place to go. That era is over, and asking students to pay close to $100k/year to go to a good, not great, university in upstate New York is a tough sell.

Syracuse is not close to the last school that is going to be impacted by the demographic cliff. I would look at the big state schools that are effectively open admission like Kentucky and WVU. With the better schools expanding their offerings, and many local schools of similar academic quality all over the country, why would someone choose places like those two? They have huge overheads and even modest reductions of students or discounting will create huge problems.

 

[CL82]

Academic programs aren't the cause of university budget bloat. At some point power conferences can jettison academics and run their enterprise without the pretense of amateurism. Sink or swim. Look at the athletics debt at Rutgers since they joined the Big 10.

I don't know that any failure at Rutgers can be used for evidence of anything other than the ineptitude of the administration of Rutgers.

 

[CL82]

Yes, they lost it in the same year. They were admitted in and within several months a committee -- headed by U Michigan and other B1Gs -- recommended their ouster.

I remember this, but it was never clear to me, why? How did Nebraska having AAU accreditation hurt any other AAU institution? I mean, I guess you can argue it diluted the brand, but wasn't that always true?

 

[DRBackup]

Micron will be big.

Again, I'll believe the "will be" part when they actually build it.

 

[DRBackup]

They still have Dinosaur BBQ

And Pastabilities. But all of it is in a few block area, entirely. Outside of that, there is bubkis in Syracuse.

 

[brihman]

And Pastabilities. But all of it is in a few block area, entirely. Outside of that, there is bubkis in Syracuse.

Once Chucks closed you knew enrollment was in trouble

 

[Chuck]

These cuts barely impact any students. All schools are going to do this, and probably should.

Syracuse has done a good job inflating it's reputation by focusing on a few departments. We toured Syracuse with one of our kids that was not interested in one of their trophy programs. On the tour, we asked about biology and other pre-med type majors. The response was (almost verbatim), "That's over there in the [ ] building. It's great. Now who wants to go see our studio at Newhouse!?" She wasn't really interested after the tour.

That being said, my small NJ town's high school consistently has dozens of kids applying to Syracuse and at least 5 per year that attend. The endowment isn't huge per student, but they offer better students a ton of merit aid. It's cold and Syracuse isn't a great city, but it doesn't seem like a bad place to go for a few years.

 

[DRBackup]

These cuts barely impact any students. All schools are going to do this, and probably should.

Syracuse has done a good job inflating it's reputation by focusing on a few departments. We toured Syracuse with one of our kids that was not interested in one of their trophy programs. On the tour, we asked about biology and other pre-med type majors. The response was (almost verbatim), "That's over there in the [ ] building. It's great. Now who wants to go see our studio at Newhouse!?" She wasn't really interested after the tour.

That being said, my small NJ town's high school consistently has dozens of kids applying to Syracuse and at least 5 per year that attend. The endowment isn't huge per student, but they offer better students a ton of merit aid. It's cold and Syracuse isn't a great city, but it doesn't seem like a bad place to go for a few years.

It makes even more sense in the face of probable student load debt. Your expected contribution to the cost of 4 years is the same no matter where you go and how much that school costs. But you can't get out of college with $400K in student loan debt and a worthless degree with zero earning power. Hell, you can skip college altogether and be a waiter.

It's all the rage to claim colleges are somehow committing fraud by offering majors in subjects with no earning power, but none of them are guaranteeing you anything. I have a friend who was very smart, went to a good school and got a history degree. Now has a career managing a home improvement store. Some degrees are only good for some things. If you're not majoring in some kind of STEM program, you shouldn't be spending $400K on a college degree.

 

[CL82]

Honesty it's mostly due to factors outside of their control. Things are pretty uncertain right now in Canada.

 

[Greg]

Not surprising at all. They're not close to the lunacy going on at some of the Ivy schools, but I still see their idiocy in the news quite a bit, and all that comes at an INSANE price point - $92K for tuition, room and board. In Syracuse, which some people want to imagine is in the arctic, but legitimately has nothing anywhere near campus for a school located in a "city". I never understood the draw of SU, and that was before I lived in the area. At that price, with what Syracuse has going for it, I wouldn't even consider putting that school on a list I might go to - sports broadcasting being the lone exception. But even then, $400k for that ? Yikes

It depends. As an SU grad I can tell you first hand that the Newhouse School and Maxwell are top tier with an excellent ROI. Would not spend the money there or any where for an Arts and Sciences degree.

 

[UconnU]

Syracuse the city is dead. It makes Hartford look thriving.

 

[UConnRock]

The amount of northern kids heading south for their college years just keeps going up. New York and New Jersey are in the top 5 to 10 states for enrollment in many southern schools.

 

[upstater]

I remember this, but it was never clear to me, why? How did Nebraska having AAU accreditation hurt any other AAU institution? I mean, I guess you can argue it diluted the brand, but wasn't that always true?

It's a matter of cutting programs and also ratcheting up only politically-awarded research instead of competitive research awards. The AAU was moving in a different way and the schools that were removed were deficient in terms of competitive research grants and comprehensive offerings. The bad part is that by losing your status inside the AAU, you also lose many awards and then of course you start cutting back on even more comprehensive course offerings.

 

[upstater]

It makes even more sense in the face of probable student load debt. Your expected contribution to the cost of 4 years is the same no matter where you go and how much that school costs. But you can't get out of college with $400K in student loan debt and a worthless degree with zero earning power. Hell, you can skip college altogether and be a waiter.

It's all the rage to claim colleges are somehow committing fraud by offering majors in subjects with no earning power, but none of them are guaranteeing you anything. I have a friend who was very smart, went to a good school and got a history degree. Now has a career managing a home improvement store. Some degrees are only good for some things. If you're not majoring in some kind of STEM program, you shouldn't be spending $400K on a college degree.

The people who are spending $400k don't have to worry about any of this. In many ways, STEM programs have more frightening jobs prospects ahead than the other fields we're mentioning. Also, Walmart recruits assistant store managers directly from universities. So it's not an unlikely career path. I have a friend who is a store manager without a bachelors and he is locked into that job because so many competitors require a bachelors and he doesn't have one.

 

[upstater]

These cuts barely impact any students. All schools are going to do this, and probably should.

Syracuse has done a good job inflating it's reputation by focusing on a few departments. We toured Syracuse with one of our kids that was not interested in one of their trophy programs. On the tour, we asked about biology and other pre-med type majors. The response was (almost verbatim), "That's over there in the [ ] building. It's great. Now who wants to go see our studio at Newhouse!?" She wasn't really interested after the tour.

That being said, my small NJ town's high school consistently has dozens of kids applying to Syracuse and at least 5 per year that attend. The endowment isn't huge per student, but they offer better students a ton of merit aid. It's cold and Syracuse isn't a great city, but it doesn't seem like a bad place to go for a few years.

The Area Studies programs have kids from all the disciplines, so cutting them makes absolutely no sense. And cutting languages looks good if you're only looking at majors, but you actually need to look at # of heads in those classes because so many students take these classes without majoring in the discipline.

 

[UConnJim]

Here are some facts on Syracuse:

Undergrad Enrollment 2024/2025: 15.96k, 10 year average: 15.25k Stable to rising enrollment

Applicants 2024/2025: 44.5k, 10 year average: 36.7k Rising applicants

Acceptance rate 2024/2025: 45.9%, 10 year average: 50.9%. Getting tougher to get accepted.

So, they are cutting some majors that have few if any enrolled students. UConn is doing that as well.

 

[DRBackup]

Syracuse the city is dead. It makes Hartford look thriving.

LOL! Sure. SURE. I live in the area. There isn't much, but it is vastly better than Hartford

 

[DRBackup]

The people who are spending $400k don't have to worry about any of this. In many ways, STEM programs have more frightening jobs prospects ahead than the other fields we're mentioning. Also, Walmart recruits assistant store managers directly from universities. So it's not an unlikely career path. I have a friend who is a store manager without a bachelors and he is locked into that job because so many competitors require a bachelors and he doesn't have one.

Uh... everyone attending SU is spending $400K.

 

[upstater]

Uh... everyone attending SU is spending $400K.

???
I can tell you 100% this isn't true.

 

[HooperScooper]

LOL! Sure. SURE. I live in the area. There isn't much, but it is vastly better than Hartford

I've obviously been to Hartford a bunch. I've been to Syracuse a few times. Both cities blow.

 

[cohenzone]

I have a close relative who is a prof at a college in the Syracuse area. SU does have some notable programs, but the city has little to offer. Other schools in the upper mid west have rough winter weather and not a lot to do outside of the school. SU is not that unlike a lot of other schools. And programs are being chopped at a lot of them. I am not familiar with the ins and outs of curriculum, but I believe a lot of schools are going through the same exercise and a lot of the programs being cut are in liberal arts majors that were popular for years but have been dropping in favor of more career specific majors.

 

[SixRings]

I've obviously been to Hartford a bunch. I've been to Syracuse a few times. Both cities blow.

I spend a lot of time in both cities. Both inner cities are not attractive. However, many of the surrounding areas and towns around Hartford are charming, quaint, thriving, and have a comfortable New England feel to them. Same with many towns on the shore. Syracuse and surrounding areas are depressed. There are very few towns in that area that have anything interesting. Even the finger lake towns have gotten old and nasty. There is no Glastonbury, Simsbury, West Hartford, Farmington valley, etc. Micron will be a huge influx and can hopefully help the region but it will take years, maybe decades. There’s a world of difference between the two places.

 

[John]

It depends. As an SU grad I can tell you first hand that the Newhouse School and Maxwell are top tier with an excellent ROI. Would not spend the money there or any where for an Arts and Sciences degree.

Whitman too

 

[CTFAN4LIFE]

I can't remember the specific stats, but Syracuse last year totally mismanaged their enrollment management and ended up enrolling way less students than they needed. I think it was something pertaining to not providing enough aid to accepted students, who then went to other schools at unexpected levels. It effects them for 4 years because you can't make up the gap.

 

[HooperScooper]

I can't remember the specific stats, but Syracuse last year totally mismanaged their enrollment management and ended up enrolling way less students than they needed. I think it was something pertaining to not providing enough aid to accepted students, who then went to other schools at unexpected levels. It effects them for 4 years because you can't make up the gap.

Aren't there ways to compensate? They could have accepted more mid-year transfers. They could accept more students for next year.

 

[DFW HOYA]

If you are a kid in the Northeast than wants to go to a school with a full complement of D1 sports with school spirit, your choices are Syracuse, UConn, BC, Penn St., maybe Rutgers and that is it.

One doesn't have to be in FBS to meet these criteria. Georgetown accepted only 13% this year (without the Common App) and Villanova 27%, so there is stil plenty of demand for their programs and both of them carry more school spirit than Rutgers.

 

[CTFAN4LIFE]

Aren't there ways to compensate? They could have accepted more mid-year transfers. They could accept more students for next year.

Sorry - I was fuzzy on the details and then went back to the Google to get clearer on what happened. They got in a jam two years ago when a large percentage of accepted students declined accepting thereby triggering Syracuse to have to dip much deeper into their waitlist and throw significantly more student aid to bring those students in. They also haven't had as many international students apply, exaserbatting the situation because typically international students don't need/get as much financial aid. So, that's why I was saying they are effected for 4 years because they are stuck with giving elevated aid to that class over their four years.