OT - Strange juxtaposition

[UcMiami]

I am not trying to start a 'political thread' or a discussion that descends into religious or right/left ideology. But I actually find the folks on this board to be an interesting cross section, and I am really curious about opinions on this subject.
Mods please delete if this is inappropriate, and apologies in advance if I offend anyone.

Last week we had two terrible incidents in the US - a bombing in Boston that left four dead, 200+ injured, and a city shut down. And an explosion in West, TX killed 14, injured about 200, and destroyed half the town.
The bombing in Boston was 'intentional' is classified as terrorism and one of the Boston bombers is dead and the other will likely face the death penalty or life in prison.
The explosion in TX was 'accidental' and is classified as an industrial accident, but is probably the result of criminal negligence or reckless endangerment on the part of the company, its officers and executives. (And could probably also be deemed as a not unlikely result of this negligence/endangerment.) The company, its officers, and executives will probably face fines and reprimands, but I think are unlikely to spend a day in jail.

I find the juxtaposition of these two events within hours of each other to be strange, and to cause me to wonder about our own reactions to two equally devastating occurrences.
The root cause of both events might be classified as 'religious fanaticism' one related to Islam, the other related to Mammon (greed and money.)
In one case we have national debate and expressions of grief. In the other it seems localized and almost 'private'. And yet both events 'terrorized' a community and rained down death and destruction. The obvious difference is 'intent', but don't we often say actions speak louder than words?

I think I would prefer a society that was more outraged about West, TX and those responsible and maybe a little less prepared to sacrifice the rule of law and civil liberties in response to Boston.

I would like to hear others' thoughts. And I do again apologize if this offends or oversteps limits for this board. I have tried to not make this 'political' but may not have done so.

 

[DobbsRover2]

I would like to hear others' thoughts. And I do again apologize if this offends or oversteps limits for this board. I have tried to not make this 'political' but may not have done so.

There have been a number of articles about the subject lately. Essentially, Americans and our justice system has always been reluctant to prosecute company officials for lethal negligence, even after repeated violations and untold deaths. Even getting changes in place to prevent future tragedies of the same type is very difficult as the initial outrage dies and companies deflect any real requirements for mitigating changes by saying they are studying the situation and will make all necessary corrections. Obviously, nothing happens.

An article about the recurring rounds deaths of young men working in grain silos just left me baffled. Despite what appear to be clear cut examples of companies willfully evading the law and endangering workers, community outrage is hard to find. They want the jobs and will just pray that nothing happens and that corporation assurances that all safety issues have been addressed actually mean something. It's easy to say that the company managers had no intent in the deaths of employees in the grain silos, but willing blindness the actions of lower-level managers at the mills should involve big consequences. When you balance small fines after deaths vs the profit line with keeping the status quo, it's obvious what usually wins out.

 

[vtcwbuff]

I think that you have made too many assumptions about what happened and what will happen in Texas.

In any case there is no comparison between being negligent and being deliberate.

 

[Icebear]

I think that you have made too many assumptions about what happened and what will happen in Texas.

In any case there is no comparison between being negligent and being deliberate.

There are many available comparisons. Some very pertinent, most not. In addition, not all negligence is unintentional 30 years of it with failure to report seems pretty deliberate.

 

[meyers7]

I think that you have made too many assumptions about what happened and what will happen in Texas.

In any case there is no comparison between being negligent and being deliberate.

Agreed.

 

[FairView]

Crazy people blowing stuff up is more exciting than lazy people blowing stuff up.

It would be interesting to know how non-network coverage of the events compares west of the Mississippi.

 

[meyers7]

The explosion in TX was 'accidental' and is classified as an industrial accident, but is probably the result of criminal negligence or reckless endangerment on the part of the company, its officers and executives. (And could probably also be deemed as a not unlikely result of this negligence/endangerment.) The company, its officers, and executives will probably face fines and reprimands, but I think are unlikely to spend a day in jail.

Where are you getting that? I have not seen anything even remotely pointing to that. All I've read and seen is they still don't know what caused the explosion.

Your post seems a bit strawmanish.

 

[UcMiami]

I think that you have made too many assumptions about what happened and what will happen in Texas.

In any case there is no comparison between being negligent and being deliberate.

I do agree that I have made some assumptions about what has and will happen in TX, though I would also say there were and continue to be many assumptions being made in Boston. But I used TX just because of the timing of events and could as easily have used similar clearer examples like those sited by Dobbs, or numerous other 'industrial accidents' like those in mines, garment factories, the BP explosion and oil spill, or going back further the Union Carbide disaster in Bhopal, India.
And as Icebear notes 'negligence' does not preclude intent - I would posit much corporate negligence is actually intentional as following rules and implementing safety measures costs money and cuts into profits.
But my main point is that I would like us as a society to be a little more outraged at events that are likely the result of 'intentional' negligence. And that while Boston has reached the stage of healing the injured and the measured investigation of motive, it still dominates all news and political discussion. While in Texas there are still a few people missing and many more unanswered questions, and yet you must search for any news on it. I am sure the local coverage is still intense, but as a society nationally we have moved on.

 

[meyers7]

I do agree that I have made some assumptions about what has and will happen in TX,

ummm, yea. Rather damning ones at that without any even inkling of proof.

though I would also say there were and continue to be many assumptions being made in Boston.

Not so much. We know how and by whom. And a pretty good idea of why.

While in Texas there are still a few people missing and many more unanswered questions, and yet you must search for any news on it. I am sure the local coverage is still intense, but as a society nationally we have moved on.

Well to compare the coverage of Boston to West, Texas, you also have to understand the factors. East Coast, large city, terrorist attack that can happen anyplace, to anyone, as compared to western, small town, industrial accident that can only happen to people who work/live near an industrial plant. The 1st is always going to get much more attention. Intent vs neglect, or how we respond to that is pretty negligible as compared to the other factors that would affect coverage.

 

[UcMiami]

Where are you getting that? I have not seen anything even remotely pointing to that. All I've read and seen is they still don't know what caused the explosion.

Your post seems a bit strawmanish.

I am not surprised that you have not seen anything as it is hard to find national reporting, but if you care to read about the various problems with the running of this plant, the following is I think a fairly good source. This is not a 'blog' but an NPR affiliated Texas news source, and I think they have done a good job of documenting the history.
http://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/20...n-concerns-over-safety-regulation-and-zoning/

 

[Wonkster]

.
1) I take violent exception to your referring to money (profits) as religious fanaticism. You are guilty of abuse of the English langusge, and I sentence you, UcMiami, to 90 days in a Texas hoosegow.

2) The fertilizer factory was there first. Dummies later decided to build near it. The most that can be said is that the town/burg was guilty of negligence in giving out residential or commercial building permits anywhere near such a known danger. Fertilizer plants have explosions quite commonly. So do grain elevators.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

Regardless of intent, safety concerns, company negligence (if any) etc., industrial accidents ARE going to happen. There was a factory near where I once lived that blew up (on a small scale) about once a year, and yes, they made explosives, so maybe not surprising. Similarly, there were periodic "explosions" at the Bayway refinery years ago (that's the big complex on the NJ Turnpike near the Goethel's bridge). And they may or may not have been caused by negligence (or, as I heard in one case, the low-level employee was the one who "blew off" the company rules and paid the price with his life in one of the incidents).

Conversely, there is no reason to expect an intentional explosion when you are out in public.

To me this is the reason for disproportionate coverage.

 

[UcMiami]

Good points Meyers - please see my last post for reference on assumptions about the running of the plant. As for the of jail time in industrial 'accidents' just look at the history of these events.
And I certainly agree that news coverage is driven by market size and that is a very good point, though one would think political response would treat all of america as equally important. (After I wrote that I realized I was being naive - politics is partly about publicity, so jumping on a more 'newsworthy story' is more 'politically savy')
As for corporate negligence only affecting a specific segment of the population located near an industrial site. You can live anywhere and be affected by contaminated foods, or a product that is sold which is defective, or own a house near a gas line that is improperly maintained, or get your water from a polluted source, etc.

 

[vtcwbuff]

I suspect somebody felt an irresistable urge to rant about the bosses and corporate America and used Boston and West, Texas to justify the rant.

 

[DobbsRover2]

I suspect somebody felt an irresistable urge to rant about the bosses and corporate America and used Boston and West, Texas to justify the rant.

A poster here poses a reasonable question that echoes stories in the news about the fading attention for the Texas disaster and all you can do is a blind-monkey jig while railing against "rants" toward your poor misunderstood corporate America. Whatever.

At least 14 people killed and 160 wounded after 270 tons of explosives were parked near a residential area and exploded. Far more lives and damage done in Texas than in Boston. We can all say that these industrial accidents just happen all the time and that Texas just has more lax attitudes toward doing business, and that we need to accept it as just the way things are and the price of doing business (at any cost). But anyone who thinks that all these coal mine, grain mill, fertilizer factory, etc. tragedies have no relation to any corporate malfeasance and backup from political supporters in the affected districts is likely in the same contorted position as the vt-guy, who sees nothing but a rant in the story of a Texas tragedy. True, it's been 24 years since an industrial explosion of this size in TX and more than 60 since the record tragedy at Texas City killed 581 people, but major deadly explosions occur there every few years, with corporate negligence and evasion of safety requirements being at the heart of them. And that's just one big state down there, with many others in similarly bad situations with industrial safety records. (Note: if you are a recent law school graduate and want to make the big bucks, head down Texas way and get into industrial injury case litigation.)

So sure, UCM, rant on, and let the blind-monkey jigster accuse you of many and sundry acts of disillusionment with his sweet-home corporate America that can do no wrong.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

I just read a thread that told me too much about people whose posts on WCBB I enjoy.

 

[vtcwbuff]

I would suspect someone as always has his head lodged in its usual spot that requires heavily contorted downward and then upward motion. And as always, Mikey can rave about the racism and misogynism in the heart of UConn fans and you do the goosey two-step to it. A poster here poses a reasonable question that echoes stories in the news about the fading attention for the Texas disaster and all you can do is a blind-monkey jig while railing against "rants" toward your poor misunderstood corporate America. Whatever.

At least 14 people killed and 160 wounded after 270 tons of explosives were parked near a residential area and exploded. Far more lives and damage done in Texas than in Boston. We can all say that these industrial accidents just happen all the time and that Texas just has more lax attitudes toward doing business, and that we need to accept it as just the way things are and the price of doing business (at any cost). But anyone who thinks that all these coal mine, grain mill, fertilizer factory, etc. tragedies have no relation to any corporate malfeasance and backup from political supporters in the affected districts is likely in the same contorted position as the vt-guy, who sees nothing but a rant in the story of a Texas tragedy. True, it's been 24 years since an industrial explosion of this size in TX and more than 60 since the record tragedy at Texas City killed 581 people, but major deadly explosions occur there every few years, with corporate negligence and evasion of safety requirements being at the heart of them. And that's just one big state down there, with many others in similarly bad situations with industrial safety records. (Note: if you are a recent law school graduate and want to make the big bucks, head down Texas way and get into industrial injury case litigation.)

So sure, UCM, rant on, and let the blind-monkey jigster accuse you of many and sundry acts of disillusionment with his sweet-home corporate America that can do no wrong.

Dovbbsrover - Just so you know, I have reported this post since it breaks several BY rules.

 

[UcMiami]

.
1) I take violent exception to your referring to money (profits) as religious fanaticism. You are guilty of abuse of the English langusge, and I sentence you, UcMiami, to 90 days in a Texas hoosegow.

2) The fertilizer factory was there first. Dummies later decided to build near it. The most that can be said is that the town/burg was guilty of negligence in giving out residential or commercial building permits anywhere near such a known danger. Fertilizer plants have explosions quite commonly. So do grain elevators.

So I actually went to my Bible for the reference to Mammon. But maybe it was a little overstated, but please not the hoosegow! (Great word!)

And I actually wondered if #2 was true, but could find no source for when the plant was built, but the town came into being in the 19th century and expanded with the railroads so I suspect the chicken came before the egg - the people before the plant.

 

[JS]

So sure, UCM, rant on, and let the blind-monkey jigster accuse you of many and sundry acts of disillusionment with his sweet-home corporate America that can do no wrong.

Very colorful writing Dobbs, and I'm not going to heave it, but kindly tone it down if you get back in.

You're introducing an element of personal attack and insult here that goes well beyond VTCW's questioning of "somebody's" motives.

The OP professed an intent to discuss this without politics -- and the consequential sniping -- intruding. Maybe we can do that, maybe not. We'll see.

 

[Icebear]

270 tons (540,000 pounds) of ammonium nitrate was on site and unreported. A weight of 400 pounds requires reporting to Homeland Security. A violation of 1350X the threshold of mandatory reporting. That is more than simple negligence and is very deliberate.

 

[UcMiami]

Hey - sorry if this has become overly contentious. I appreciate the responses and I tried to be civil in mine. If I failed I apologize.

Violent death is never expected and I do not suppose I would greatly care what motive or cause was behind being hit by a car, blown up in an explosion, or shot dead.
I do think we over emphasize terrorism when it represents a statistically small number of deaths in this country compared to mother nature, and other forms of violent death. I don't understand the psychological reasons for that and so posed the original question. I hate terrorism. But I also hate other preventable forms of violent death.
Thanks everyone.

 

[vtcwbuff]

270 tons (540,000 pounds) of ammonium nitrate was on site and unreported. A weight of 400 pounds requires reporting to Homeland Security. That is more than simple negligence and is very deliberate.

Ice - There may be any degree of negligence involved here but how do you know it was deliberate negligence or an administarative screw up? That determination should be made by investigators and the courts. Why wasn't the quantity reported to HS when it was reported to the Texas environmental people? Somebody forget the stamp?

Would reporting the amount to HS have reduced the danger. Does HS or any other agency prohibit or limit the amount of ammonium nitrate that a producer has on hand? This is a fertilizer plant. It seems odd that they would be limited to 400# of product.

Understand that I'm in no way arguing to defend West fertilizer just saying that there is a lot of investigating to be done before we decide to hang somebody.

 

[UcMiami]

Regardless of intent, safety concerns, company negligence (if any) etc., industrial accidents ARE going to happen. There was a factory near where I once lived that blew up (on a small scale) about once a year, and yes, they made explosives, so maybe not surprising. Similarly, there were periodic "explosions" at the Bayway refinery years ago (that's the big complex on the NJ Turnpike near the Goethel's bridge). And they may or may not have been caused by negligence (or, as I heard in one case, the low-level employee was the one who "blew off" the company rules and paid the price with his life in one of the incidents).

Conversely, there is no reason to expect an intentional explosion when you are out in public.

To me this is the reason for disproportionate coverage.

Absolutely agree that accidents happen, it is part of human nature. But if you run a plant with highly flammable/explosive materials you would expect that a good sprinkler system would be present and smoking would be prohibited and a disaster preparedness plan would be kept up to date at a minimum - and you would consider the owners and operators criminally negligent if those things were not in place. Not saying any or all of this is true in West, TX. Just that as a society we should expect certain likely risks should be minimized in every work environment.
And I think most people feel they should be safer sleeping in their own bed than they do walking the streets of any large city. I once had a friend from the boonies who cancelled a visit to NYC because she was afraid of the big bad city! The expectation of safety was no greater in Boston than in West. And is intent so overarching a factor?

NB to everyone - I made my money as an owner and executive of a business so I do not dislike corporate America. My income now I am retired is based almost entirely on my portfolio of corporate stocks and bonds, so I still depend on a vibrant corporate environment. But I also believe that if you are going to gamble with the safety of your employees and the community you conduct your business in and you 'lose', the penalty should not be as small as it has historically been.

 

[Icebear]

Ice - There may be any degree of negligence involved here but how do you know it was deliberate negligence or an administarative screw up? That determination should be made by investigators and the courts. Why wasn't the quantity reported to HS when it was reported to the Texas environmental people? Somebody forget the stamp?

Would reporting the amount to HS have reduced the danger. Does HS or any other agency prohibit or limit the amount of ammonium nitrate that a producer has on hand? This is a fertilizer plant. It seems odd that they would be limited to 400# of product.

Understand that I'm in no way arguing to defend West fertilizer just saying that there is a lot of investigating to be done before we decide to hang somebody.

Because only a deliberate pattern explains a 30 year historical record of violations and failures to comply. Of course, it will be decided by the courts. Frequently the courts are ineffective in dealing with corporate violators. I have no power to hand down any rulings or impose any penalty just calling out your statement that there are no comparisons to be made. Zocar Tsarnaez has not been tried and convicted yet either.

 

[vtcwbuff]

Because only a deliberate pattern explains a 30 year historical record of violations and failures to comply. Of course, it will be decided by the courts. Frequently the courts are ineffective in dealing with corporate violators. I have no power to hand down any rulings or impose any penalty just calling out your statement that there are no comparisons to be made. Zocar Tsarnaez has not been tried and convicted yet either.

Yeah but Tsarnaev was sorta' caught with his hand in the cookie jar. All I'm saying is that the facts are not all in when it comes to West Fertilizer. I certainly wouldn't have a problem if a court finds that the corporation was negligent. Until that happens I'm just not going to point a finger.

In any case my dispute with the comparison has absolutely nothing to do with guilt and everything to do with the difference between accident due to negligence (if that is what happened) and intentional murder. IMO not even in the same universe.