OT: Still more NCAA hypocrisy.

[Kibitzer]

One example of the volume of money generated by big-time college football is the current expansion of the football stadium for Texas A&M (to 102,500 seating capacity by 2015). I just read that there will be 144 suites and that all but a few have already been sold to donors who pledge something like $80,000 to $100,000 annually! This information is available online; I cannot verify it.

 

[Alydar]

Jay Bilas' tweets over the past couple of hours . . .

https://twitter.com/JayBilas[/quote]
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The Reggie Bush autographed photo for $180.00 says it all.

 

[UConnCat]

Jay Bilas may have just won the O'Bannon case with his embarrassing twitter take-down of the NCAA today.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebas...as-did-to-the-shopncaasportscom-search-engine

 

[Fightin Choke]

I have always liked Jay Bilas. Along with Cam my two favorite Dukies.

Camrncrz1974 is a Dukie? Wow! Next thing you know I'll find out Tony is a Huskies' fan whose glass is always half (to 3/4's) full. Or that triad guy that posts here every few weeks or so is another Dukie.

 

[intlzncster]

I thought that was what the NCAA was - an association formed by the universities to regularize and control intercollegiate competition. And I think ANYTHING the universities replace it with will be worse - sort of like the whole reorganization of conferences and the BCS system.
And the big losers in anything that does happen will be the student athletes in all the non-glamor sports, including women's basketball. Everybody looks at the obscene money paid for college football, and the slightly less obscene money going to men's basketball, and the few women's basketball programs that make money or break even and want to get some of that money for themselves - and the other sports are going to be thrown under the bus.
Probably the best result would be to create a semi pro football division of college football that includes the top end of the program out there - colleges can chose to join or not regardless of current conference. And let the rest of the programs continue the way they are. Hopefully after a few years, those programs will break away from their colleges completely and create a real minor league football league with no pretension of actually trying to educate their players.

Maybe originally, but not any longer. Schools are afraid to even have a conversation (that is not top secret) about changing the NCAA. It is now a bloated bureaucracy that appears to be more concerned about making money than anything else.

The problem though, is that under your system, you'd be removing the money makers, the big players that drive the whole system. Big paydays only go to the big players (and the lesser schools/programs who are lucky enough to play them). Without that, intercollegiate athletics as we know it would die. You could kiss fringe sports, athletic departments, title nine etc goodbye, unless all the athletes decided to pay to play. I just don't see how this idea is feasible. I suppose you could try to go back to the 50s, but I just don't see it.

Also, do you realistically think the 'semi pro' programs would be allowed to leave their universities? No way. Alums, administrators, and even TV guys would kill to stop it. The most important thing about the University of Alabama is the football team. Ditto Arkansas, Texas, Florida, Miami etc.... The brand and all that.

Oh and if you had that semi pro system for football, you'd have to do the same thing for basketball. Way too much cash involved there.

 

[ThisJustIn]

Wonder where the money goes.... oh, right, football and men's basketball coaches salaries, overblown stadiums and locker rooms and training facilities.

No one has yet to create a realistic structure where what college football and men's basketball is -- a farm system for players -- can be replaced and STILL pay the top players -- and then, the top of the top players, 'cause who wants to play the 68th scholarship player anything?

I've suggested it before, and here's an elaboration - create semi-pro business "in residence" at universities. Those businesses buy in to a tiered league. You win, you go up, you lose, you go down.

You have to pay an annual membership to join the league.

Players must audition. They get hired - and can choose which compensation package they want.

Players DO NOT have to got to college. They CAN work outside of the business, but will be bound by the rules of any other proprietary business. They WILL pay taxes on their salaries. If they have to pay rent, car, food, etc. will depend on the contract they are offered.

The businesses must rent space, raise all their operating costs, pay taxes etc.

What else needs to happen?

 

[Kibitzer]

May we say that football has distorted the mission of many institutions of higher learning?

The renovation of Kyle Stadium (Texas A&M) will cost $450 million. Among the things it will accomplish:

-add 20,00 seats and thus become...​

-the biggest stadium in the SEC (500 more seats than Tennessee) and in the state of Texas (passing Texas U.) and...​

-become noisier and thus a more hostile environment for visiting teams.​

I say .

What that expenditure of $450 million will NOT accomplish:

-purchase a single book for the library.​

-hire a single professor.​

-launch or finance a medical research project.​

-grant a single scholarship to a deserving/needy kid.​

-bring in a guest speaker, whether it be Ann Coulter or Rachel Maddow.​

-buy a computer or laptop.​

-improve campus life -- or safety.​

-and so on.​

​

Perhaps I have become excessively jaded as I cling to some notion that there is a place for both intercollegiate and inramural athletics in our colleges. I don't think the fellows running the NCAA have the solution. Or even a clue.

 

[UcMiami]

Also, do you realistically think the 'semi pro' programs would be allowed to leave their universities? No way. Alums, administrators, and even TV guys would kill to stop it. The most important thing about the University of Alabama is the football team. Ditto Arkansas, Texas, Florida, Miami etc.... The brand and all that.

Oh and if you had that semi pro system for football, you'd have to do the same thing for basketball. Way too much cash involved there.

They way they do this and I have seen it happen (not in sports but in other areas) is the organizational folks go to the parent company and say 'Listen we really need to incorporate this so that we can get out there on our own to raise money and lessen the financial burden on you' and then a few years later they turn around and say ... 'oh, another city or institution, or entity has offered us a lot more financial support than you have, and either you pay up, or seeing as we are a separately incorporated entity we are on the next train out of here.'

I actually think the structure of some of the football bowl games may have followed that model - they started out as an invitational post season game owned by a school in their stadium and then were incorporated into a separate entity (may be off base here.)

I don't think this will happen - but if it did, interestingly I think you would find a fair amount of attention still paid (and money made) by the non-semi pro teams. I also think it would be interesting to see how the sports donations are handled - the basketball practice facility has a $30M price tag coming from donors getting tax breaks - not sure how long it would take the men's and women's teams to earn that money without the donations?
And while some stadiums are money makers for schools, not so for others like at Rutgers. And didn't Uconn actually lose money on their one BCS bowl appearance because they didn't have enough fan support and had to pay for all the unsold tickets in their allotment?

 

[Icebear]

I'm shocked to find out the Texas A&M is only going to 102,500 seats. I thought they were going to 108,000. Shocked I tell you. I thought they were committed to big time football.

 

[grizz36]

Camrncrz1974 is a Dukie? Wow! Next thing you know I'll find out Tony is a Huskies' fan whose glass is always half (to 3/4's) full. Or that triad guy that posts here every few weeks or so is another Dukie.

Damn! They've been outed. What restaurant did you find Cam and Triad at, by the way?

 

[Kibitzer]

I thought that was what the NCAA was - an association formed by the universities to regularize and control intercollegiate competition.

Not so. According to the NCAA's own web site: "The NCAA was founded in 1906 to protect young people from the dangerous and exploitive practices of the time." It was formed in response to public outcry about 18 deaths on football fields in 1905. Early organizers were supportive of student-athletes of that time to earn money by playing "summer ball," presumably a form of semi-pro baseball played all over America.

Remember the movie, "Hoosiers"? There was a sign (local barber shop) that read, "Friday night win, free Saturday trim." No doubt the NCAA would consider that a form of compensation, er, an "impermissible benefit," in their jargon.

Some on this thread seem to think that the O'Bannon lawsuit is about student-athletes getting paid for playing. I don't see it that way. The thrust appears to be seeking compensation (or the opportunity to earn compensation -- e.g., autographs) for the use of their names, images, or likenesses. As matters now stand (see Jay Bilas), the schools and the NCAA get all the dough, the jocks nothing.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

I was thinking about this last night - because many of the scenarios presented will, I am convinced, be the end of college athletics, except for football and men's basketball. No more funding for the sports I like.

There are probably around 5,000 BCS football players and north of 3,000 D1 men's basketball players. What percentage are going to be drafted? What percentage have marketable images, autographs, etc.

Looks like a set-up for the rich to get richer.

 

[Kibitzer]

I have stated throughout this thread that the O'Bannon case could have an even greater impact on college sports than the Curt Flood case has had on professional sports.

The rich are already getting richer. The NCAA sold the TV rights for the men's basketball tournament alone for $702 million. I cited the cost of renovation of Kyle Stadium (Texas A&M) at $450 million. The Big Ten Network. Notre Dame football. ESPN, ESPNU, ESPN3. I could go on and on.

The big BIG money is in football and men's basketball. How will those cash cows be affected negatively if some players get paid for use of their names, images, or likenesses? Or if they sell some autographs? Not at all, except they lose their bogus amateur status -- and so what!

College sports will not die (Thanks, Title IX!), but the NCAA will have to change (unlikely) or die (likely IMO).

 

[JRRRJ]

I was thinking about this last night - because many of the scenarios presented will, I am convinced, be the end of college athletics, except for football and men's basketball. No more funding for the sports I like.

There are probably around 5,000 BCS football players and north of 3,000 D1 men's basketball players. What percentage are going to be drafted? What percentage have marketable images, autographs, etc.

Looks like a set-up for the rich to get richer.

It would certainly kill college athletics as it now stands. But millions of kids would still be avid athletes. And, just as ASU did with their tennis program, there'd be club teams, with regional contests. Without the pressure of winning to support their coaches' salaries, pay the AD's bureaucracy or build a $450mm playing field.

 

[UcMiami]

It would certainly kill college athletics as it now stands. But millions of kids would still be avid athletes. And, just as ASU did with their tennis program, there'd be club teams, with regional contests. Without the pressure of winning to support their coaches' salaries, pay the AD's bureaucracy or build a $450mm playing field.

Or pay trainers, and top notch medical consultants. Intramural and club teams are great for students that want to continue playing their sports recreationally, but does not provide the kind of environment that develops world class talent.

 

[JRRRJ]

Or pay trainers, and top notch medical consultants. Intramural and club teams are great for students that want to continue playing their sports recreationally, but does not provide the kind of environment that develops world class talent.

And why is developing world-class talent so important that it can be allowed to distort our educational institutions and divert much of their resources from education?

That's a fan's POV.

And university club teams are well above the recreational level. Membership is quite competitive.

 

[Kibitzer]

Today'ss news item on ESPN online: "NCAA shutting down sales site."

Lead statement: "NCAA president Mark Emmert on Thursday said college sports' governing body will stop selling institutional jerseys and other team-related memorabilia on its website, calling the practice a 'mistake' and admitting others might view it hypocritical." [emphasis added.]

Thanks, Jay Bilas.

I invite your attention to the OP.

 

[Icebear]

Way to go, Jay!!!

 

[Geno-ista]

May we say that football has distorted the mission of many institutions of higher learning?

The renovation of Kyle Stadium (Texas A&M) will cost $450 million. Among the things it will accomplish:

-add 20,00 seats and thus become...​

-the biggest stadium in the SEC (500 more seats than Tennessee) and in the state of Texas (passing Texas U.) and...​

-become noisier and thus a more hostile environment for visiting teams.​

I say .

What that expenditure of $450 million will NOT accomplish:

-purchase a single book for the library.​

-hire a single professor.​

-launch or finance a medical research project.​

-grant a single scholarship to a deserving/needy kid.​

-bring in a guest speaker, whether it be Ann Coulter or Rachel Maddow.​

-buy a computer or laptop.​

-improve campus life -- or safety.​

-and so on.​

​

Perhaps I have become excessively jaded as I cling to some notion that there is a place for both intercollegiate and inramural athletics in our colleges. I don't think the fellows running the NCAA have the solution. Or even a clue.

I was just on the A & M campus 2 weeks ago and had tour of stadium and new plans for expansion. My new son in laws alma mata. The rich military tradition is absolutely awesome. And inside their new immense and beautiful student union - no hats are allowed to be worn in honor of the military grads that have fallen in battle! You couldn't enforce that rule in 99% of the college campuses- especially up north! A & M has become my 2nd team!!! Gary Blair is also a treasure!!

 

[Kibitzer]

And inside their new immense and beautiful student union - no hats are allowed to be worn in honor of the military grads that have fallen in battle! You couldn't enforce that rule in 99% of the college campuses- especially up north!

Texas is one of many southern states that cling to honoring the Confederacy. They have Confederate Heroes Day on January 19 but some communities observe the more traditional Confederate Memorial Day on April 26.

Many southern states commemorate the birthday of Robert E. Lee in January or Jefferson Davis on June 3.

Nobody up here in the north has any reason to honor the Confederate States of America or its leaders. Our patriotic observances are more sharply focused and every bit as heartfelt as what those folks down south do.

 

[Geno-ista]

Texas is one of many southern states that cling to honoring the Confederacy. They have Confederate Heroes Day on January 19 but some communities observe the more traditional Confederate Memorial Day on April 26.

Many southern states commemorate the birthday of Robert E. Lee in January or Jefferson Davis on June 3. They may still honor the confederacy. But there is a real deep and automatic reverence for anyone in the military, that I don't notice up here the way I do when I am down south or in the mid west. In Nashville, sections at big concerts give standing ovations to service people going up and down the aisles. Ivy League schools and universities in the Pacific Northwest banning ROTC on campus. I would like to think that I r right- but I don't see it or feel it like I do when I'm out of New England.

Nobody up here in the north has any reason to honor the Confederate States of America or its leaders. Our patriotic observances are more sharply focused and every bit as heartfelt as what those folks down south do.

 

[Kibitzer]

Much of the discussion here has focused on those wonderful $100,000 athletic scholarships. I can't and won't argue with those who extol the virtues of a college education and the financial awards that almost always accrue to those who earn a degree.

Almost, but not always.

A young person with an extrordinary talent has the option of developing it through further education or not. A male in high school who is a blue chip talent at football or basketball must attend college (the minor leagues). He has no choice.

Chances are that he will be derided for leaving college early (after one year for basketball, three for football) and it is questionable if he benefited at all either from what occurred in the classroom or on the campus. That's the "conventional wisdom."

Now, just for a moment, try to consider how Johnny Manziel or RGIII or others like them could possibly pursue their athletic dreams (and quest for riches) unless they first did penance in college.

Too me it is just more of the sham that big-time college football and (men's) basketball has become.

 

[UcMiami]

Kib - I like your post, but I also think you ignore a whole bunch of professional athletes in both of those sports that did NOT take the scholastic aspect of their scholarship lightly, and while they may have left early, still completed their degree. And many have used that education for pretty good things post career or even during.
A scholarship is only a sham if the student treats it as such and the school allows or encourages them to do so. The problem that all of us have is that too many students and schools do. And while the students are young and susceptible, the same cannot be said for the school administrations.
And I would add - NBA and NFL as leagues and their owners and players/union are raking in the money - they have had a few half hearted attempts to develop minor leagues, but ... if they or we really cared making a true minor league system for those sports would be a great place to start to solve the NCAA 'issue'. I included the players and union because if the ones that succeed through this system thought it was a problem they should be doing something about it - they have the financial resources now. (I am always pleasantly surprised when one of these modern multi-millionaires is involved financially in backing their alma maters - say what you will about JoePa, but that was one area where his heart was in the right place.)
JRRRJ - for the same reason that developing world class brains or artists, etc. is something we strive for. Now is it essential that that work occur in a college environment - no. Other countries have sports institutions from the Russian/Chinese model of testing everyone at a very early age and churning them like a factory to something a little less scientific as the Aussies and a number of European countries are doing with WCBB national teams. We do some of it in the states for some sports, but most of the access to that kind of training is based on money, not necessarily skill. There is also something to be said for the grass roots natural selection that exists in the US, and worldwide for things like soccer and cricket.
And where the colleges fit into the equation is the 'money' - they have the facilities and employees and access to scientific research (Gatorade, anyone) to help develop kids. In the process, a number of them have also sold their souls, but the problem starts with them and not the 'NCAA'.
On the NCAA structure - interesting to see the original 'charter', but aren't all the rules and regulations subject to the approval of a majority of the college presidents at each division level - and wasn't the BCS sort of an end run around the NCAA structure?

 

[Kibitzer]

Kib - I like your post, but I also think you ignore a whole bunch of professional athletes in both of those sports that did NOT take the scholastic aspect of their scholarship lightly, and while they may have left early, still completed their degree.

UCMiami, I readily concede the point you made so well about the athletes who have taken the academic aspect of their athletic scholarship seriously. As I focused on the lack of alternative opportunities (e.g., like baseball minor leagues) I failed to acknowledge those whom you recognized so eloquently.

I persist in my belief that my comments remain applicable to many talented student-athletes, but not all.

 

[UcMiami]

While we at Uconn are not really happy with the new academic standards imposed by the NCAA, I do think it is a step in the right direction. The problem being that the calculations are so complicated and open to a lot of factors that are maybe not correctly calculated (transfers, etc.) And also that a school that commits serious academic fraud is determined not to be subject to the same rules!

 

[Icebear]

While we at Uconn are not really happy with the new academic standards imposed by the NCAA, I do think it is a step in the right direction. The problem being that the calculations are so complicated and open to a lot of factors that are maybe not correctly calculated (transfers, etc.) And also that a school that commits serious academic fraud is determined not to be subject to the same rules!

The unhappiness at UCONN is not about the standards it is about how the went about it retroactively instead of setting the policy going forward.

 

[svetbird]

I wonder how a baseball player in the minor leagues getting paid peanuts to pursue his dream of major league fame and fortune would feel about an offer of free tuition ($50,000K) plus room and board ( $?) would feel about that kind of compensation. To a large extent that is what men's college football and basketball have become - the minor leagues. I imagine most would jump at it and accept whatever restrictions you placed on them.
Yes there is huge money being made off of college sports and most of it gets pumped right back into the athletic teams and facilities for all the sports that lose money hand over fist.

As for the coaches and administrators getting paid big bucks ... some of it is over the top like every other area of american life, but they have all put in the time at much smaller compensation to get where they are. They are not 18-21 year olds learning their trade, but seasoned professionals that have risen through hard work and luck and talent. Geno didn't get paid a living wage in his first coaching gig, and he wasn't exactly raking it in for the first 15 years. But he has stuck at it and now is at the top of his profession and getting paid like it.

I will admit to some curiosity as to what the NCAA budget looks like and where all their money goes. I suspect there is some serious fat in there as with most organizations, but they also sponsor a large number of events for a wide array of non-profitable sports including paying expenses for the teams participating.

As for the poor exploited college athletes - cry me an ocean! Exploited are the workers in sweat shops, the victims of human trafficking, slave labor in various parts of the world, and I'll even throw in restaurant workers. But kids getting a free education, job training, and room and board - choose another word. And if they don't like the contract they signed they can drop out and pursue their profession on their own. It is a free country and I am sure they can get a try-out with some sports franchise - of course they will not have been marketed and showcased and trained by an NCAA institution so they may not actual get the job, but I hear Walmart is hiring.

I am on the same page. Look I got (and still get in grad school) some help to pay my tuition for my good grades. However it is no where near a full ride. I would kill to not have the kind of debt I hold now (if only I was good at a sport). People like to act like the players are getting nothing for their services in the NCAA. A free ride room and board and whatnot is a huge benefit for any kid (some of which would never be accepted anywhere near a ivy league school without their athletic gifts). The greats will get paid big bucks in a woping 2-3 years. the rest? guess what even a Kelly Faris (on a mens or womens team will not be making any $ off promotions). the big 3 would make money that would be about it. The only way good to mid level players make $ is if we make the school (the one already giving them a free ride) pay for using their images in a media guide or program.

Simply put doing away with NCAA rules would make the soon to be crazy rich players crazy rich a few years earlier while those who will not make the big bucks still make little. I don't think that system would do anything more than perpetuate the idea that athletes get all the brakes.