OT: Sports Doping | The Boneyard

OT: Sports Doping

RockyMTblue2

RockyMTblue2

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Less than 2 weeks ago news broke about someone getting their hands on "secret" doping test results for Olympians in the last 4-5 winter Olympics. It wasn't pretty. It suggests systemic cheating on a scale with that in international bike racing, using Lance Armstrong's devices of choice, EPO and red cell packing. As many as a third of metals could have been won by cheating. At the same time it suggests strongly that those charged with monitoring are burying results and are very much part of the problem. I'm watching the Biathalon now and wondering how many of those athletes are clean; I suspect it is the smaller number. Sobering.

Winter Olympics in fresh drug scandal with hundreds of stars dodging bans

Blood doping scandal hits Winter Olympics | Daily Mail Online

What to do? Obviously a problem that isn't going away. Maybe all control should be forgotten and may the best doper win.
 
RockyMTblue2 said:
Less than 2 weeks ago news broke about someone getting their hands on "secret" doping test results for Olympians in the last 4-5 winter Olympics. It wasn't pretty. It suggests systemic cheating on a scale with that in international bike racing, using Lance Armstrong's devices of choice, EPO and red cell packing. As many as a third of metals could have been won by cheating. At the same time it suggests strongly that those charged with monitoring are burying results and are very much part of the problem. I'm watching the Biathalon now and wondering how many of those athletes are clean; I suspect it is the smaller number. Sobering.

Winter Olympics in fresh drug scandal with hundreds of stars dodging bans

Blood doping scandal hits Winter Olympics | Daily Mail Online

What to do? Obviously a problem that isn't going away. Maybe all control should be forgotten and may the best doper win.
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They let them use the best equipment. They let them use the best nutrition. They let them use the best coaching. They let them use the most up to date training methods. They let them use professionals. Is there that big a difference in using chemicals?
 
I used to be an ultra long-distance cyclist. We had to ride unassisted, along a certain route and reach certain controls by specific times or be eliminated. The overall goal was to complete the ride by a certain maximum time. Those who did were listed alphabetically and it was considered vulgar to compare times. Finishing was the goal. There were no rewards; if you wanted to get a medal (a cheap thing), you had to buy it.

There were people who cheated. Who had friends hiding to help them change tires, etc. Who took short-cuts off the route and got back on in time to approach the controls. Who took drugs, esp. modafinil, so that they could ride straight through for 2 or 3 days. All that, for the right to buy a $10 medal and get your name listed on some obscure website.

Compared to that, cheating in the Olympics makes sense.
 
Not to minimize the problem, which clearly exists, but the Sun is the British version of the National Enquirer. The story is thinly sourced, citing secret reports and unnamed sources.

Obviously Russia has been a problem in prior Olympic Games, which is why we all have to get used to the OAR this Olympics.

If the story was published by a reputable newspaper, while providing legitimate sources, I would be more inclined to take it seriously. But this is just tabloid journalism.
 
bags27 said:
I used to be an ultra long-distance cyclist. We had to ride unassisted, along a certain route and reach certain controls by specific times or be eliminated. The overall goal was to complete the ride by a certain maximum time. Those who did were listed alphabetically and it was considered vulgar to compare times. Finishing was the goal. There were no rewards; if you wanted to get a medal (a cheap thing), you had to buy it.

There were people who cheated. Who had friends hiding to help them change tires, etc. Who took short-cuts off the route and got back on in time to approach the controls. Who took drugs, esp. modafinil, so that they could ride straight through for 2 or 3 days. All that, for the right to buy a $10 medal and get your name listed on some obscure website.

Compared to that, cheating in the Olympics makes sense.
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Makes one wonder how something can be justified by lying to oneself. Surely those who employed subterfuge to finish know they didn't actually achieve the goal. It would be like someone making ten of ten shots while standing under the basket proclaiming they made 10 straight three pointers. I understand it is done. I just don't know how someone who does it justifies it in their own mind. I mean no matter what someone else did, how can that possibly compare with that month I lived on the moon that time.
 
Was initially skeptical of these articles as they come from the Sun and the Mail, but they both reference the Times of London, which may be somewhat reliable. I'm sure cross-country skiing as largely a contest of endurance is rife with the kind of cheating that is rampant in cycling.

You've got to make like Team Sky and go legit and get a TUE for medications for your "asthma". I would think that having asthma would make it difficult to become an elite cyclist, but apparently not.
 
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oldude said:
Not to minimize the problem, which clearly exists, but the Sun is the British version of the National Enquirer. The story is thinly sourced, citing secret reports and unnamed sources.

Obviously Russia has been a problem in prior Olympic Games, which is why we all have to get used to the OAR this Olympics.

If the story was published by a reputable newspaper, while providing legitimate sources, I would be more inclined to take it seriously. But this is just tabloid journalism.
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2 from Times of London and a couple of others.

Blizzard of ski doping cheats

Doping scandal hits Winter Olympics

Why Is It So Easy to Cheat at the Olympics?

Olympic athletes are cheating more often than you think
 
oldude said:
Not to minimize the problem, which clearly exists, but the Sun is the British version of the National Enquirer. The story is thinly sourced, citing secret reports and unnamed sources.

Obviously Russia has been a problem in prior Olympic Games, which is why we all have to get used to the OAR this Olympics.

If the story was published by a reputable newspaper, while providing legitimate sources, I would be more inclined to take it seriously. But this is just tabloid journalism.
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Okay, okay. You got me. I was just doing it for cheap thrills!

 
meyers7 said:
They let them use the best equipment. They let them use the best nutrition. They let them use the best coaching. They let them use the most up to date training methods. They let them use professionals. Is there that big a difference in using chemicals?
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100%.
 
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JordyG said:
I don't think I could agree more than that. 200% is just not a real number.
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Oh ok. I've been at home with the flu all day, so my brains probably not working too good.
 
meyers7 said:
Oh ok. I've been at home with the flu all day, so my brains probably not working too good.
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Feel better. I think my typical winter's allergies, constant post nasal drip, stuffy nose and coughing has acted as a barrier to my flu gathering the most seasons.
 
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At one time I was totally against the use of PEDs. I have changes my mind for two reasons: 1. So many athletes are using drugs that it is hard to imagine a sporting event that drugs are not being used by someone - at least on the professional and olympic levels. Therefore we have no knowledge of how the outcome is affected. 2. As stated above we allow every other enhancement to enter sports why not drugs. Of course just as some athletes gain an advantage because of better technology in training and equipment there would now be added another dimension - those with the best PED technology.

If PEDs were allowed then the public would be aware and the athlete could make more informed decisions on whether to take the PEDs or not since there would be no need to keep that information secret.
 
Yorkeez4 said:
At one time I was totally against the use of PEDs. I have changes my mind for two reasons: 1. So many athletes are using drugs that it is hard to imagine a sporting event that drugs are not being used by someone - at least on the professional and olympic levels. Therefore we have no knowledge of how the outcome is affected. 2. As stated above we allow every other enhancement to enter sports why not drugs. Of course just as some athletes gain an advantage because of better technology in training and equipment there would now be added another dimension - those with the best PED technology.

If PEDs were allowed then the public would be aware and the athlete could make more informed decisions on whether to take the PEDs or not since there would be no need to keep that information secret.
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I so do agree. What we fans want is a level playing field. If everyone is doping that pretty much makes the field plumb in my book.
 
meyers7 said:
They let them use the best equipment. They let them use the best nutrition. They let them use the best coaching. They let them use the most up to date training methods. They let them use professionals. Is there that big a difference in using chemicals?
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They let them use the best equipment, equipment that's the envy of non-olympians. They let them use the best nutrition, in some cases groundbreaking science. They let them use the most up to date training methods. They let them use professionals. What the hell givs any of them the right to use illegal drugs?
 
I remember that one of our female Olympic gold medal gymnast team member was allowed to take a banned drug because she has ADHD (or something along that line), I wonder how we can prevent people from claiming that they are also legit to take that as ADHD can be simply verified by a blood test. Also by taking that drug, could an athlete with ADHD achieve an advantage over other athletes. For example I definitely believe a male-to-female transgender athlete would have some advantage over a female athlete.
 
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JordyG said:
I so do agree. What we fans want is a level playing field. If everyone is doping that pretty much makes the field plumb in my book.
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I would so much more appreciate the court or field to be level, does one climb up the plumb line or get impaled on the bob?
I'm not in favor of "drugging" of most kinds, except of course those that I choose to use, but if Enhancement drugs are being used extensively then it would appear if all used them it would be fair competition. But--the problem exists that when outside influence enters humans they are reacted to in different modes, would that still make all equal?? I don't know the answer. I had a silly mother who believed all humans should be treated equally in all things, I live by her influences--which means a life of frustrations.
 
Bigboote said:
My problem with the whole PED thing is that they can't say with 100% certainty who has been doping. Armstrong was dethroned based on, about a SIX year old sample which was tested with tests not then available. IOW, with the best testing available AT THE TIME, he was judged clean and was awarded the wins. Convicting someone based on evidence (the test results) that didn't exist six years earlier screams ex post facto to me.

And MLB: Ken Caminiti and Jose Canseco (who's been consistently proven correct; you really have to worry when he's the voice of reason) say that around 80% of MLBers were doping over some period of time. There have been of order one or two dozen names leaked. There are around 1000 players in the majors each year, so of the thousand in the majors in the year covered in the leak, arouns 800 were doping. Yet only those in the leak are sort-of blackballed. Disqualifying Roger Clemens from the hall of fame for being an is fine with me, because he’s a doper just doesn’t sit right, though.

I’m not pretending I know a satisfactory answer.
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Dang you Big---a moralist! If you are aware of much over the past 20 or more years, much of the past is judge by todays standards.
Only Historians have the knowledge to make a different assessment. Morally we live by our current standards because that is all we know, so those convicted of past crimes by todays laws/rules--is grating on some of us as morally wrong. You don't know a "satisfactory answer" because there is no true answer. It is one that is in each of us singular human's alone.
 
BroadwayVa said:
I would so much more appreciate the court or field to be level, does one climb up the plumb line or get impaled on the bob?
I'm not in favor of "drugging" of most kinds, except of course those that I choose to use, but if Enhancement drugs are being used extensively then it would appear if all used them it would be fair competition. But--the problem exists that when outside influence enters humans they are reacted to in different modes, would that still make all equal?? I don't know the answer. I had a silly mother who believed all humans should be treated equally in all things, I live by her influences--which means a life of frustrations.
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Hopefully a full life of frustrations.

A equality whether actual or perceived is relative. To me a level playing field is equal access without limitations due to race, religion or creed. Then this of course obviates the need for a bob. As for any and all the rest,

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tomcat said:
They let them use the best equipment, equipment that's the envy of non-olympians. They let them use the best nutrition, in some cases groundbreaking science. They let them use the most up to date training methods. They let them use professionals. What the hell givs any of them the right to use illegal drugs?
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Well that's kind of the point, why are they illegal?
 
JordyG said:
Hopefully a full life of frustrations.

A equality whether actual or perceived is relative. To me a level playing field is equal access without limitations due to race, religion or creed. Then this of course obviates the need for a bob. As for any and all the rest,
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View attachment 28676
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My greats were carpenters--I was fun-ing with you about the bob. But in all else--that's my mom speaking with your voice. Just one point connect or disconnect, I don't know--I prefer, all is actual. But if you perceive it to be true for you it is true. Oh, yea, I know you just missed it but--gender is an add. Two of the finest, trusted, and creative, knowledgeable Engineers I knew were women. A woman was the chief engineer for the company that made the mirrors for the Hubble, if memory serves. I just had to throw that in, had nothing to do with nothing, I'm just so proud to have known them. Thanks for the positive reply.
 
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BroadwayVa said:
My greats were carpenters--I was fun-ing with you about the bob. But in all else--that's my mom speaking with your voice. Just one point connect or disconnect, I don't know--I prefer, all is actual. But if you perceive it to be true for you it is true. Oh, yea, I know you just missed it but--gender is an add. Two of the finest, trusted, and creative, knowledgeable Engineers I knew were women. A woman was the chief engineer for the company that made the mirrors for the Hubble, if memory serves. I just had to throw that in, had nothing to do with nothing, I'm just so proud to have known them. Thanks for the positive reply.
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+10. Everything you said is 100%. Let me amend my shamefully short sighted and halfhearted response: Race, religion, creed and gender; all of us citizens marching shoulder to shoulder into our future selves. Man, I love this country.
 
JordyG said:
+10. Everything you said is 100%. Let me amend my shamefully short sighted and halfhearted response: Race, religion, creed and gender; all of us citizens marching shoulder to shoulder into our future selves. Man, I love this country.
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We are on the right road, it's long and winding with pit falls, but with people like you we will get there sooner rather than later. Bless you.
 
meyers7 said:
They let them use the best equipment. They let them use the best nutrition. They let them use the best coaching. They let them use the most up to date training methods. They let them use professionals. Is there that big a difference in using chemicals?
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Absolutely! The problem with dopig is that it doesn't/ wouldn't stop with professionals. This triggers down to kids, especial high school. I've seen it; witnessed it; and actually had a high school coach tell me that I needed to start my son on steroids prior to college (and my son was a top 10 pitcher in the country).

Doping shortens many athletes lives. It's very hard on the body, mainly the heart and brain. Roid rages are a real thing and we all know we don't need more rages in this country now.
 
tomcat said:
They let them use the best equipment, equipment that's the envy of non-olympians. They let them use the best nutrition, in some cases groundbreaking science. They let them use the most up to date training methods. They let them use professionals. What the hell givs any of them the right to use illegal drugs?
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meyers7 said:
Well that's kind of the point, why are they illegal?
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Most of the banned substances aren't illegal. Various ADHD drugs and cold remedies are on the banned list. For something long-term like ADHD you can get a waiver, but waivers take awhile so for illnesses you just need to know. And as Maria Sharapova knows, you need to know right away when the list changes.
 
skilz said:
Absolutely! The problem with dopig is that it doesn't/ wouldn't stop with professionals. This triggers down to kids, especial high school. I've seen it; witnessed it; and actually had a high school coach tell me that I needed to start my son on steroids prior to college (and my son was a top 10 pitcher in the country).

Doping shortens many athletes lives. It's very hard on the body, mainly the heart and brain. Roid rages are a real thing and we all know we don't need more rages in this country now.
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Doping, the use of HGH and steroids are three different things. The dangers of long term blood doping and the use of HGH are not clearly defined because of the lack of long term trials, if there are any. The long term ill effects of steroids is well documented. Honestly, steroids are no longer the real drugs of choice these days, HGH is. So here we are again with the same issues that followed marijuana. Nevertheless, how can something be stopped, curtailed or regulated if it remains illegal?
 
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