OT: Snow Removal From Your Car Before Driving

[Dutch Boyd]

Post #5 saying I park in a garage.

You are absolutely trying to justify tailgating.

Sure thing, Nelson

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Yes, we’ve all seen this. He’s got to give it up. You should see the formulas that AI spits out explaining how far the ice will travel. But I don’t wanna bore you all with physics.

Bore us. Explain why staying back 4 seconds in the winter is a bad idea.

 

[Ha Who]

Bore us. Explain why staying back 4 seconds in the winter is a bad idea.

In practice, ice sheets often:

• Catch air and glide upward, increasing hang time.
• Break into pieces that flutter, staying airborne longer.
• Get lifted by the slipstream, sometimes rising 10–20 feet.


If the ice stays airborne for even 1 second, it can travel:

88 \text{ ft/s} \approx 6 \text{ car lengths}


If it gets lofted for 2 seconds, that’s:

176 \text{ ft} \approx 12 \text{ car lengths}


This is why ice from a car roof can hit vehicles hundreds of feet behind in extreme cases.

If you want the formula behind this, I can give it to you

 

[Ha Who]

If the ice lifts even a little — say 3 feet into the air — the fall time is about:

t = \sqrt{\frac{2h}{g}} \approx \sqrt{\frac{2 \cdot 3}{32}} \approx 0.43 \text{ seconds}


Horizontal distance traveled

At 60 mph, your car (and the ice) are moving:

60 \text{ mph} = 88 \text{ ft/s}


So in 0.43 seconds, the ice travels:

88 \cdot 0.43 \approx 38 \text{ feet}

 

[Dutch Boyd]

Waylon doesn't give a c^^p about other people on the roads, I'm absolutely shocked.

Waylon continuing to make the thread about himself while claiming he's not selfish, I'm doubly

Bore us. Explain why staying back 4 seconds in the winter is a bad idea.

Tell us you drive slow in the fast lane without telling us. Maybe stop living in tunnel vision and you won’t be so angry. Also, when did you become Waylon, lmaoooo? Fill me in

 

[HooperScooper]

200 feet is not that far back, a little over 2 seconds depending on how fast you were going. It is also physically difficult for a sheet of ice to stay airborne for 7 seconds unless it was a gale force wind or the car was going really fast. A really strong wind or a really fast car could lift a sheet that is big enough to catch the wind but not so big that it would be too heavy to not reach terminal velocity very quickly. And if the wind was strong enough to keep a big sheet of ice airborne, it is likely going to pull it left or right and or break it in the air. This is a tail end of the distribution case.

I am not saying that someone should have 6 inches of ice on their roof, but I am saying that a driver can do a lot to mitigate the risk of getting hit. If the car in front of you has an inch or less of snow on it, it is really unlikely that you could get in trouble behind it. Something would have to go really wrong to hit you if you were 4 seconds, which is about 120 yards, back.

Trucks are a different story. They are already taller, so anything coming off them is going up quite a bit before it comes down. All the more reason not to tailgate.

Alternatively, you are MUCH more likely to cause an accident if you are regularly driving less than 200 feet behind the car in front of you, especially in the winter, than you are to be hit by snow coming off another car if you are over 100 yards back. Probably 10x as likely.

It was probably more than 200 feet since as you said that's about 2 seconds at 65 mph. And the ice was up in the air twisting and turning for a lot more than 2 seconds. But you just like to argue. About everything. I'm curious, are you retired and this is your entertainment?

I have a 360 degree camera on my new car so next time this happens I will download the 20 second video and try to post it so you can determine if I was driving at a safe distance behind a car. I don't know how to do it yet but I'll figure it out. Smh.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

This is why I've taken to staying in the right lane on most highways these days. Tired of being passed on left and right while doing 75-80.

I know this makes me sound old, but I have really dialed back my approach to driving in the last 10 years. I turn on the adaptive cruise control when I get on the highway, and view it as a failure of my driving if I have to tap the brakes before I get off the highway. If someone wants to pass, I move over to the right lane and they pass, and if my car feels the car in front of it slowing down, then I slow down automatically. I do all I can to avoid getting near any car. An extra 5 mph is not going to save me enough time to justify the risk of getting right up to someone else's bumper.

 

[Chuck]

This is an odd thread. Here are my 2 cents:

• Clean your roof. It's the law in my state (NJ) and it's dangerous if it turns to ice. Being 5 car lengths back at 50mph is totally reasonable, but you can still get hit with flying ice. That's not using math... it's happened to me and it's scary. That being said, we can be reasonable. I don't always clean the roof when there's an inch of fluffy snow up there. It's gone by the time I get off my street.
• Tailgating in icy conditions is a problem. Most all wheel drive cars and SUVs are pretty good at driving forward, but no better at stopping than any other car. Don't feel invincible because you have an expensive AWD SUV.

Nelson is right that tailgating is bad. The rest of the gang is right that ice on the roof is bad regardless of tailgating.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

It was probably more than 200 feet since as you said that's about 2 seconds at 65 mph. And the ice was up in the air twisting and turning for a lot more than 2 seconds. But you just like to argue. About everything. I'm curious, are you retired and this is your entertainment?

I have a 360 degree camera on my new car so next time this happens I will download the 20 second video and try to post it so you can determine if I was driving at a safe distance behind a car. I don't know how to do it yet but I'll figure it out. Smh.

I am arguing, but not for the sake of arguing. 300+ feet is the right distance to be back on the highway. There is some percentage chance that all kinds of bad stuff can still happen, but if you are regularly driving under 200 feet back from the car in front of you at highway speeds, especially in the northeast in the winter, you are taking a huge chance, and you are endangering everyone else on the road.

 

[Dutch Boyd]

This is an odd thread. Here are my 2 cents:

• Clean your roof. It's the law in my state (NJ) and it's dangerous if it turns to ice. Being 5 car lengths back at 50mph is totally reasonable, but you can still get hit with flying ice. That's not using math... it's happened to me and it's scary. That being said, we can be reasonable. I don't always clean the roof when there's an inch of fluffy snow up there. It's gone by the time I get off my street.
• Tailgating in icy conditions is a problem. Most all wheel drive cars and SUVs are pretty good at driving forward, but no better at stopping than any other car. Don't feel invincible because you have an expensive AWD SUV.

Nelson is right that tailgating is bad. The rest of the gang is right that ice on the roof is bad regardless of tailgating.

Definitely an odd thread. Nelson’s original comment was 3 inches of snow doesn’t matter, BUT he parks in a garage. He’s justifying that lazy, selfish people shouldn’t have to clean their car if people didn’t tailgate. He’s arguing just to argue. Both are bad and nobody is justifying tailgating is good. Blaming others for their own laziness is a typical example of the internet we live in.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

This is an odd thread. Here are my 2 cents:

• Clean your roof. It's the law in my state (NJ) and it's dangerous if it turns to ice. Being 5 car lengths back at 50mph is totally reasonable, but you can still get hit with flying ice. That's not using math... it's happened to me and it's scary. That being said, we can be reasonable. I don't always clean the roof when there's an inch of fluffy snow up there. It's gone by the time I get off my street.
• Tailgating in icy conditions is a problem. Most all wheel drive cars and SUVs are pretty good at driving forward, but no better at stopping than any other car. Don't feel invincible because you have an expensive AWD SUV.

Nelson is right that tailgating is bad. The rest of the gang is right that ice on the roof is bad regardless of tailgating.

5 car lengths is (5x16) 80 feet back. That is less than 1 second. Unless you are a top gun pilot or a F1 driver, none of our reactions are nearly fast enough to be that close. 3 seconds (about 260 feet) is a minimum in good weather, 4 seconds in the winter, and if you have a new car, you can set your adaptive cruise control so you don't even have to think of it.

 

[superjohn]

I know this makes me sound old, but I have really dialed back my approach to driving in the last 10 years. I turn on the adaptive cruise control when I get on the highway, and view it as a failure of my driving if I have to tap the brakes before I get off the highway. If someone wants to pass, I move over to the right lane and they pass, and if my car feels the car in front of it slowing down, then I slow down automatically. I do all I can to avoid getting near any car. An extra 5 mph is not going to save me enough time to justify the risk of getting right up to someone else's bumper.

Cool, now quit being selfish and clear the snow and ice off your car.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Definitely an odd thread. Nelson’s original comment was 3 inches of snow doesn’t matter, BUT he parks in a garage. He’s justifying that lazy, selfish people shouldn’t have to clean their car if people didn’t tailgate. He’s arguing just to argue. Both are bad and nobody is justifying tailgating is good. Blaming others for their own laziness is a typical example of the internet we live in.

Are you saying that I am too lazy to park outside?

I am saying, several times in this thread, that tailgating is at least 10x more likely to result in a crash than a little snow coming off someone's car. I also never said I don't clean my car off. So getting righteous about something that is really unlikely to happen (a sheet of ice from a car with a couple of inches of snow in a few spots flying off a car and hitting someone over a football field back) and ignoring something that happens all over the place, every single day (rear ending someone on the highway because a driver is following too close), is the definition of arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Cool, now quit being selfish and clear the snow and ice off your car.

I park in a garage. #6 time.

 

[superjohn]

I also never said I don't clean my car off.

Such a weird thing to lie about.

 

[Chuck]

5 car lengths is (5x16) 80 feet back. That is less than 1 second. Unless you are a top gun pilot or a F1 driver, none of our reactions are nearly fast enough to be that close. 3 seconds (about 260 feet) is a minimum in good weather, 4 seconds in the winter, and if you have a new car, you can set your adaptive cruise control so you don't even have to think of it.

I learned the 1 car length for every 10mph rule in driver's ed. Doesn't mean it's still the standard because that was 35 years ago, but I looked it up and it's still used. I absolutely love the adaptive cruise control. That, the lane correction tech and blind spot warnings are life changing.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

In practice, ice sheets often:

• Catch air and glide upward, increasing hang time.
• Break into pieces that flutter, staying airborne longer.
• Get lifted by the slipstream, sometimes rising 10–20 feet.


If the ice stays airborne for even 1 second, it can travel:

88 \text{ ft/s} \approx 6 \text{ car lengths}


If it gets lofted for 2 seconds, that’s:

176 \text{ ft} \approx 12 \text{ car lengths}


This is why ice from a car roof can hit vehicles hundreds of feet behind in extreme cases.

If you want the formula behind this, I can give it to you

And how far back did I say a car should be in the northeast in the winter? Over 100 yards. Is 176 feet more or less than 100+ yards?

BTW, it is clear that a lot of you tailgate dangerously, because I am the only one in the entire thread that had a what-the-fudge reaction to reading someone post that only 100 feet back from the car in front of you is acceptable on the highway, in the winter no less. Am I the only person in this thread that measures distance by seconds back?

 

[Ha Who]

And how far back did I say a car should be in the northeast in the winter? Over 100 yards. Is 176 feet more or less than 100+ yards?

BTW, it is clear that a lot of you tailgate dangerously, because I am the only one in the entire thread that had a what-the-fudge reaction to reading someone post that only 100 feet back from the car in front of you is acceptable on the highway, in the winter no less. Am I the only person in this thread that measures distance by seconds back?

I guess you don’t drive in Connecticut. Everyone else on this board has seen ice fly off of cars and shoot hundreds of feet. But I guess you know better. Maybe there’s an opening on real housewives of Salt Lake City for you

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I learned the 1 car length for every 10mph rule in driver's ed. Doesn't mean it's still the standard because that was 35 years ago, but I looked it up and it's still used. I absolutely love the adaptive cruise control. That, the lane correction tech and blind spot warnings are life changing.

I learned 2 seconds back in driver's ed a long time ago, and that time incorporates my speed and the car in front of me's speed. Then my nieces and nephews took drivers ed about 10 years ago, and said the new standard was 3 seconds back. 3 feels better than 2.

I had family members that were/are EMT's and paramedics. They pointed out that most accidents involve someone going too fast, and about half involve following too close. By definition, if someone hits another car from behind, the car in the back was going too fast.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I guess you don’t drive in Connecticut. Everyone else on this board has seen ice fly off of cars and shoot hundreds of feet. But I guess you know better. Maybe there’s an opening on real housewives of Salt Lake City for you

Two questions:

1) Can you control what every other car on the road is doing at every second?

2) Can you control how close you get to the car in front of you?

Unless you control the Matrix, the answer to #1 is "no". And given the fact that you have no problem with driving within 100 feet of someone on the highway, you clearly tailgate, maybe you should focus on #2.

 

[JMick]

You are just picking a fight with me. My original comment was half a joke about people tailgating, which is a much more serious problem than a film of snow on top of the car. Also, I almost never have snow on top of my car because, I posted before this post quoted above, I park in a garage almost all the time.

Rather than engage in a performative shaming ritual that posters like you love, I was simply pointing out that tailgating in the winter in the northeast is a much bigger danger than a thin layer of snow on the top of the car that will melt off in about 10 minutes. Between ice patches on the roads, sand causing cars to slide, and snow and ice getting in tire treads, driving in the northeast after a snowstorm requires people to be more prudent than normal. You could take every flake of snow off your car and you will be the equivalent of a two ton missile if you are following within 3 seconds of the car in front of you after a snow storm or even a winter rain.

I am correct that something would have to go really wrong for any snow or even ice to come off a car and damage the car behind it unless the second car was tailgating.

Let's do some math. 60 mph is 1 mile a minute or 5280 feet per minute, so every second is 88 feet, almost 30 yards. That means 4 seconds is 352 feet, or 117 yards, on the highway. 3 seconds is 264 feet, or just under 90 yards. Even 2 seconds back is almost 60 yards. That is over half a football field.

Most importantly, ice does not levitate. It will hit the ground within a second of coming off the car. 2 seconds if it is a sheet and catches the wind just wrong. If you are 3 or 4 seconds back, none of that is your problem. If there is a lot of snow on the car in front of you, stay further back and slow down.

This is literally a 3 page thread about how to make tailgating safer. STOP TAILGATING and the snow won't be a problem.

It doesn't just go backwards. It can hit cars in other lanes.

I don't tailgate. Im a safe driver. Part of being a safe driver is ensuring your car is in proper condition for driving. That includes removing hazards from your vehicle.

 

[Ha Who]

Connecticut general statute 252A. Also known as the missile law

a) The operator of any noncommercial motor vehicle, as defined in section 14-1, shall remove any accumulated ice or snow from such motor vehicle, including the hood, trunk and roof of such motor vehicle, so that any ice or snow accumulated on such vehicle does not pose a threat to persons or property while the vehicle is being operated on any street or highway of this state. Any such operator who fails to remove accumulated ice or snow that poses such a threat shall be fined seventy-five dollars and shall be deemed to have committed an infraction.

 

[Ha Who]

https://www.cga.ct.gov/2010/act/pa/2010PA-00182-R00HB-05387-PA.htm#:~:text=In%20Connecticut%2C%20drivers%20must%20remove%20any%20snow,period%20of%20snow%2C%20sleet%2C%20or%20freezing%20rain

 

[Hey Adrien!]

I'm finishing up another trip home to Connecticut.

Was fortunate enough to see the snow and enjoy winter. Cue the Progressive commercial. I got to shovel the driveway three times over the weekend.

I am somewhere between interested, curious, and intrigued at the different levels of effort Nutmeggers put in to cleaning snow off of car before they hit the road.

There is a range from pristine cleaning of frint windshield down to barely a square big enough to see through. Some leave the snow on the roof, some don't bother cleaning off the passenger side. Some don't clean the rear window, they just let the wiper or rear defrost do what they can.

I drive a '09 Corolla, so I'm a huge fan of the "use the whole arm to clothesline the snow off the roof" kinda guy. Usually, I'll warm up the car for a solid ten minutes before cleaning up, makes it nice and smooth.

 

[HooperScooper]

I am arguing, but not for the sake of arguing. 300+ feet is the right distance to be back on the highway. There is some percentage chance that all kinds of bad stuff can still happen, but if you are regularly driving under 200 feet back from the car in front of you at highway speeds, especially in the northeast in the winter, you are taking a huge chance, and you are endangering everyone else on the road.

300 feet seems like an awfully far distance. That's an entire football field. Or more than 3 basketball courts. That's really far. Does anyone on here stay that far behind the car in front of you on the highway? Seems impossible to do unless you're in a very rural area with few cars on the road. Someone would always come into your lane in front of you and if you had to slow down every time to get back 300 feet behind the car that did that then the car behind you would be coming up on you. Seems dangerous and impossible to drive that way. I'm going to pay attention to the cars on the highway tomorrow to see if it can be done.