OT: Rock and Roll Royalty

[RSHERMVIKES]

Buddy Holly was the 1st rock & roller to use different backups and overdubbing in recordings! He used full orchestras or just strings, etc. on his recordings! He was a musical genius that would have taken MUSIC as a whole to unbelievable heights!
When he got killed in Iowa it was more of a loss to the music world than anyone could have imagined!

 

[bags27]

There is a very big difference between an album have recurrent themes or motifs and a concept album. Sinatra's "In the Wee Small Hours Of The Morning" had the recurrence of songs pitched around that theme. Woody putting out albums about Americana is a recurrent theme. Producing an album about fictional characters singing songs about their fictional lives all of it tied together within the concept of a fictional band is the definition of a concept album. This was their genius and they deserve credit for conceiving it.

I personally like Madonna. Glad you do too. Her ability to keep her pulse on what the public wanted to hear and alter herself accordingly was her genius. The ability however to make people like you on a mass scale is innate. Either you have it or you don't.

For me it was the type of harmonies, the pitch of their harmonies, and how and where they used them that made it peculiar to the Beatles. Very different from doo-wop harmonies, The Beach Boy harmonies, The Four Freshman harmonies (which were closer to barbershop stuff) or any others. It's these specific colorations that have been copied over the years and which I still hear in Rock music.

Not that I know as much as either of you. But seems to me, at least, that Jordy is right here. Probably 2/3 of all Dylan's albums have thematic integrity but I wouldn't say any is a concept album. Maybe one way to understand Pepper is that Help and Hard Day's Night were earlier and movie albums but become concept albums because, after we all saw the movie, we could follow the narrative. I think Pepper was produced as a non-visual movie album.

But Tapestry is far better (aesthetically, certainly not nearly as influential), and King/Lou Adler would have got there without the Beatles, IMO, because most of the songs had already been written and were just re-recorded and arranged. But how about Miles's Sketches of Spain (1960)? That is definitely a concept album...

Finally, I'm not a huge Pet Sounds fan, but isn't that a year before Pepper?

 

[Bigboote]

Responding to Connie and Jordy:

I'm with Connie that if I expand my definition of Rock and Roll, then the Beatles are king. I'd go further than Jordy and say, the Beatles weren't just a band, they were a way of life. I was 9 when they broke up, but I had older siblings. Whenever there was a new Beatles single out, nobody was talking about anything else. Every girl had a crush on one beatle and they'd argue about who was cutest. When John and Yoko got together, there was scandal, and when the Beatles broke up, the youth were devastated. As recently as a few years ago, I saw a bumper sticker that said, "Still pissed ad Yoko."

As far as concept albums, Freak Out! by the Mothers was released in 1966, very definitely a concept album. The Kinks were the first pop band to really push the idea, with several albums from the late 60's well into the 70's.

I love the Kinks, the Beatles, and the Mothers.

 

[chj001]

I think people are getting stuck on the labels "King" and "Rock & Roll." Change the question to "Who created the greatest music of the rock & roll era?" and the answer of course is John, Paul, George & Ringo!!!!

 

[wire chief]

I've read more than once that credit for the 1st concept album goes to the Moody Blues for a treatment of a day in DAYS OF FUTURE PAST.
Also I'm puzzled by those of you who dismiss Dylan. Yes, he started as a folkie, dabbled in some country and gospel, but a huge part of his repertory is rock and roll.

 

[connie]

Not that I know as much as either of you. But seems to me, at least, that Jordy is right here. Probably 2/3 of all Dylan's albums have thematic integrity but I wouldn't say any is a concept album. Maybe one way to understand Pepper is that Help and Hard Day's Night were earlier and movie albums but become concept albums because, after we all saw the movie, we could follow the narrative. I think Pepper was produced as a non-visual movie album.

But Tapestry is far better (aesthetically, certainly not nearly as influential), and King/Lou Adler would have got there without the Beatles, IMO, because most of the songs had already been written and were just re-recorded and arranged. But how about Miles's Sketches of Spain (1960)? That is definitely a concept album...

Finally, I'm not a huge Pet Sounds fan, but isn't that a year before Pepper?

I genuinely think Jordy is right about many things. And I almost always find his (her?) comments thought-provoking (including here). And in fact, having read through the comments and considered the matter, I hereby withdraw my vote for the Beatles as the King of R&R, and bequeath the title to Chuck (for many of the reasons stated). That said, I stand by pretty much all of my comments in this thread, including those addressing the issue of how we define R&R.

Now then . . . as to the "concept album" . . . I am not at all comfortable with the proposition that concept album is limited to "an album about fictional characters singing songs about their fictional lives all of it tied together within the concept of a fictional band is the definition of a concept album." That just seems too narrow to me. (And even then, Pepper does not really comfortably fit the definition. Paul says that he initially conceived of the idea. But it really did not drive what followed. "I'm Fixing a Hole", "Within You Without You", "Good Morning Good Morning" don't seem to fit the definition. Moreover, a number of the songs were not really written with Paul's concept in mind.) As I've said, I think the concept of the "concept album" entered the popular lexicon as a result of Pepper. But I think many prior albums quite arguably deserve to be considered as such--something reflecting a whole greater than the sum of its parts--a kind of ethos characterized by any number of features: a lyrical thematic focus (Sinatra's "Only The Lonely"); a lengthy narrative (the post-Pepper "The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway"); an instrumental mood ("Sketches of Spain"); a confessional anthem ("Blue"; "Tapestry"); or something else ("Piper At The Gates of Dawn"-- which was recorded just down the hall from the Pepper sessions). And so on. So . . . I guess I would be willing to include much of early Dylan in the "concept album" club. Admittedly, at some point one could begin to argue that just about every album that is not merely an arbitrary collection of tracks is a concept album. So, I appreciate the struggle to set limits.

As for Pet Sounds . . . I must confess that while I grew up loving the early Beach Boys, I did not come to know Pet Sounds until the late 80s. Just one of those gaps in my experience. Only so many minutes in a day. But when I discovered it, I fell in love with it. I am not crazy about every single track. And it admittedly opens itself up to the criticism of being over-produced. But there are some lovely tracks. "Caroline No" is absolutely haunting and heart-breaking.

 

[connie]

Freak Out! by the Mothers was released in 1966

Well spotted!

 

[connie]

Buddy Holly was the 1st rock & roller to use different backups and overdubbing in recordings! He used full orchestras or just strings, etc. on his recordings! He was a musical genius that would have taken MUSIC as a whole to unbelievable heights!
When he got killed in Iowa it was more of a loss to the music world than anyone could have imagined!

Absolutely. Buddy Holly was a terrific songwriter and one of the greatest singers in popular music. Words are too weak to express the scale of his loss. When he died, he probably took with him a hundred great songs the world will never know.

 

[Bigboote]

I've read more than once that credit for the 1st concept album goes to the Moody Blues for a treatment of a day in DAYS OF FUTURE PAST.

Great album, but a year after Freak Out! [which may also have been the first double album (I'm open to corrections)]. But I tip my hat to you, the Moodies began the repeated concept albums a year before the Kinks.

 

[tomcat]

It's really an impossible question, as all these well-reasoned answers prove. I could have easily voted for any one of them. I guess my point is that there is noi one "king," though many were called that. Settle on royalty, name maybe 10 individuals or groups, and that should suffice.

 

[Hope]

Life gets pretty boring when you stop drinking—unless you are a member of a Beatles' Tribute Band.

 

[UpstateNY]

The Beatles - having been personally exposed to Beatlemania in 1964 with attendance at a concert in SF , i can attest to the fact that this was something neverseen or heard before . Coming full circle ,last night i attended a Paul Mccarteny concert to the delight of 35000 fans . The most striking thing about the concert was every person in the audience aged 8-80 including the ushers was singing along with Paul. The Beatles weremore than rock n kings- they were a cultural icon who helped define an era . They left a musical legacy that is still fresh and interesting and has been embraced by every generation since the 60's

 

[Scud49]

From the Apple music library, I always thought this commentary summed up the Beatles impact rather nicely - I'll copy and paste the first 2 paragraphs and provide a link to the entire article if interested. And they get my vote BTW.

"So much has been said and written about the Beatles -- and their story is so mythic in its sweep -- that it's difficult to summarize their career without restating clichés that have already been digested by tens of millions of rock fans. To start with the obvious, they were the greatest and most influential act of the rock era, and introduced more innovations into popular music than any other rock band of the 20th century. Moreover, they were among the few artists of any discipline that were simultaneously the best at what they did and the most popular at what they did. Relentlessly imaginative and experimental, the Beatles grabbed hold of the international mass consciousness in 1964 and never let go for the next six years, always staying ahead of the pack in terms of creativity but never losing their ability to communicate their increasingly sophisticated ideas to a mass audience. Their supremacy as rock icons remains unchallenged to this day, decades after their breakup in 1970.

It's hard to convey the scope of the Beatles' achievements in a mere paragraph or two. They synthesized all that was good about early rock & roll, and changed it into something original and even more exciting. They established the prototype for the self-contained rock group that wrote and performed its own material. As composers, their craft and melodic inventiveness were second to none, and key to the evolution of rock from its blues/R&B-based forms into a style that was far more eclectic, but equally visceral. As singers, both John Lennon and Paul McCartney were among the best and most expressive vocalists in rock; the group's harmonies were intricate and exhilarating. As performers, they were (at least until touring had ground them down) exciting and photogenic; when they retreated into the studio, they were instrumental in pioneering advanced techniques and multi-layered arrangements. They were also the first British rock group to achieve worldwide prominence, launching a British Invasion that made rock truly an international phenomenon."

The Beatles on Apple Music