OT: Roberto Clemente

[Kibitzer]

Some other Pirates I clearly remember from those days were Smoky Burgess, Bob Veale, Don Clendenon, Elroy Face.

I remember them, too, since many had single syllable names: Groat, Friend, Hoak, Face, Smith, and Mazz.

And the Mets had Lindsay Nelson.

Many radio PBP announcers stayed with their teams for decades, most notably Vin Scully, who is still doing Dodgers' games (he began in 1950)!

Ernie Harwell was the "Voice of the Detroit Tigers" for many years. And Harry Caray did the Cardinals before switching to the Cubs. That's a whole lot of talkin'.

 

[meyers7]

And Harry Caray did the Cardinals before switching to the Cubs. That's a whole lot of talkin'.

Jack Buck worked with Carey and continued with the Cards for many years after.

 

[Carnac]

Thank you all for this trip down "memory lane". This is great!! I'm old enough to remember most of the players you've mentioned. I saw my first Dodger game in the L.A. Coliseum after they moved here from Brooklyn in 1958. The Coliseum was only 6 blocks from our home, so it was very easy to go to their games.

I was lucky enough to see many of the legends in modern baseball, many of them in their prime.
Willie Mays, Warren Spahn, Sandy Koufax, Don Drysdale, Henry Aaron (Scully referred to Aaron as "Bad Henry"), Mickey Mantle, Yogi Berra, Ernie Banks, Juan Marichal, Stan Musial, Willie Stargell, Leon Wagner, Albie Pierson, Ryne Duran, Whitey Ford, Robin Roberts, Gene Oliver, Del Crandall, Forrest "Smokey" Burgess, John Roseboro, Elston Howard, Curt Flood, The Boyer brothers (Clint & Clete), etc. I know I'm leaving some out, but I got to see them all beginning in 1958. I remember all of the players mentioned in your comments. Back then, the Chicago Cubs played all of their home games in the day time because Wrigley Field did not have lights yet.

I also went to Angel games during their first year of existence (1961) in old Wrigley field (yes, we had another stadium named Wrigley field here in L.A. The Angels played there 1 year until Dodger Stadium opened in 1962. They shared Dodger Stadium with the Dodgers until 1965, when they moved to their current location in Anaheim), to see the American league teams.

I was a baseball junkie then. I remember seeing Roberto when the Pirates came to town. I remember Vin Scully saying that Roberto was a 5 star player (run, hit, hit with power, field and throw). Scully also said that every time he interviewed Clemente, he was never healthy. Roberto would always complain about a nagging pain, but he never let it stop him from playing at a very high level.

I was lucky enough to see in person, Clemente display his arm on several occasions. He had no peer. Clemente was the standard by which ALL other outfielders with notable arms was compared to.

I don't think we'll ever see the likes of that many great players in one era, as we did back then.
Many of those players went on to become legends and "Hall of Famers".

I really enjoyed watching and following the Dodgers and major league baseball back then. Baseball to me, does not have the "awe" factor like it did back then. I miss that.

 

[stamfordhusky]

The Polo Grounds was 482 to center. 450 and 449 in the power allies and only 279 and 258 down the lines.

The Polo Grounds theoretically were 279 and 258 down the lines - but they wouldn't let anyone measure it. A reporter surreptitiously did that one day in 1962 or 1963 and found both were overstated by a lot. More like 250 and 230.

Due to its unusual shape, the power alley measurements fluctuated dramatically, depending on exactly where the measurement was made. What was called "shallow left center" was only 315 feet, normal left center was 360, deeper left center was 360, then 414, and finally 447. Similarly, right center fluctuated from 455 feet to 294 feet depending on where it was measured. The various dimensions looked like this when the Mets played there:

• Left Field Line: 279 ft. (not posted)
• Left Field Upper Deck Overhang: about 250 ft.
• Shallow Left Center: 315 ft.
• Left Center 1: 360 ft.
• Left Center 2: 414 ft.
• Deep Left Center: 447 ft. left of bullpen curve
• Deep Left Center: 455 ft. right of bullpen curve
• Center Field: approx. 425 ft. (unposted) corners of runways
• Center Field: 483 ft. posted on front of clubhouse balcony, sometimes 475 ft.
• Deep Right Center: 455 ft. left of bullpen curve
• Deep Right Center: 449 ft. right of bullpen curve
• Right Center 2: 395 ft.
• Right Center 1: 338 ft.
• Shallow Right Center: 294 ft.
• Right Field Line: 257 ft. 3 3⁄8 in. (not posted)

In total Forbes Field had a greater amount of outfield acreage, although obviously the Polo Grounds was much longer if you hit the ball to center.

 

[stamfordhusky]

Its a shame he quit right near the end of his prime. He could have put up some really historic numbers...

"Quit" certainly isn't the right word - but yes, his stats would have been much greater had he not tragically died. He had some injury issues his last year (Age 37) and "only" hit .312 - but the three previous years his averages were .341, .352, and .345 - all in an era when pitchers still dominated and the average BA was in the .240's. With good health, I imagine he could have put up averages well over .300 for the next few years.

 

[j66kicker]

Jack Buck worked with Carey and continued with the Cards for many years after.

I used to listen to Jack and Harry do the Cardinals games on my transister in Oklahoma. Harry used to say "Holy Mackerel" back then, before his Cubs "Holy Cow" days.

 

[bmayuc]

"Quit" certainly isn't the right word - but yes, his stats would have been much greater had he not tragically died. He had some injury issues his last year (Age 37) and "only" hit .312 - but the three previous years his averages were .341, .352, and .345 - all in an era when pitchers still dominated and the average BA was in the .240's. With good health, I imagine he could have put up averages well over .300 for the next few years.

sorry, sarcasm detector not functioning

 

[alexrgct]

His death was tragic, but at least he experienced the gestalt of getting his 3,000th hit. So he'll forever be a prized and cherished member of an elite club.

 

[Carnac]

A correction to my above comment. I referred to the Boyer brothers as Clete and Clint. The other brother's name was KEN. Boyer was an American Major League Baseball third baseman, coach and manager who played on the St. Louis Cardinals, New York Mets, Chicago White Sox, and Los Angeles Dodgers for 15 seasons, 1955 through 1969

 

[Kibitzer]

He also played most of his career in the park, Forbes Field, that had the deepest overall outfield dimensions in all of baseball. It was 365 feet down the LF line, with a high scoreboard to carry; 406 feet to the deeper LF power alley, and 457 feet to CF.

A reminder of just how spacious Forbes Field was - the batting cage was actually stored on the playing field during games, in deep center field, facing the wall.

A few years ago, Duke Snider was a guest on WFAN and stupid host"Mad Dog" Russo launched into a diss of Clemente because he didn't hit many homers. Duke ended the discussion by pointedly informing Russo that Forbes Field was "like an airport." (Silence)

Back then (about pre-1955 or so) major league ballparks were designed to fit into a city block, so variations in shape and size fluctuated wildly. Griffith Stadium in Washington had the most vast dimensions (and the Babe played there often and annually). We all know about the odd dimensions of Fenway Park. Crosley Field in Cincinnati actually had the farthest part of its left field gradually elevated, forcing left fielders to run uphill to chase long flies. 'Tis said that left field in the very old Baker Bowl (Philadelphia) was so shallow that second basemen risked inhaling the foul breath fumes of a right fielder experiencing a hangover.

And the fielders all left their gloves on the field when it was their turn to bat. . . .

 

[stamfordhusky]

One interesting thing is that they preserved a lengthy section of Forbes Field's ivy-covered brick wall - the portion that stood in left-center field and center field - along with the center field flag pole. It stands in a section of the University of Pittsburgh campus. Definitely worth visiting. The original home plate has also been preserved in the hallway of a nearby Pitt academic building, close to where it was originally located.

 

[BlueDolphin]

The post about about Chris "Mad Dog" Russo reminded me of a Mike and the Mad Dog show some years ago when Russo confidently asserted that Roberto Clemente was not a great baseball player. Which I took as proof positive that Russo had never actually seen Clemente play..........and that Russo is an idiot.

 

[Bigpetunia]

Thank you all for this trip down "memory lane". This is great!! I'm old enough to remember most of the players you've mentioned. I saw my first Dodger game in the L.A. Coliseum after they moved here from Brooklyn in 1958. The Coliseum was only 6 blocks from our home, so it was very easy to go to their games.

I was lucky enough to see many of the legends in modern baseball, many of them in their prime.
Willie Mays, Warren Spahn, Sandy Koufax, Don Drysdale, Henry Aaron (Scully referred to Aaron as "Bad Henry"), Mickey Mantle, Yogi Berra, Ernie Banks, Juan Marichal, Stan Musial, Willie Stargell, Leon Wagner, Albie Pierson, Ryne Duran, Whitey Ford, Robin Roberts, Gene Oliver, Del Crandall, Forrest "Smokey" Burgess, John Roseboro, Elston Howard, Curt Flood, The Boyer brothers (Clint & Clete), etc. I know I'm leaving some out, but I got to see them all beginning in 1958. I remember all of the players mentioned in your comments. Back then, the Chicago Cubs played all of their home games in the day time because Wrigley Field did not have lights yet.

I also went to Angel games during their first year of existence (1961) in old Wrigley field (yes, we had another stadium named Wrigley field here in L.A. The Angels played there 1 year until Dodger Stadium opened in 1962. They shared Dodger Stadium with the Dodgers until 1965, when they moved to their current location in Anaheim), to see the American league teams.

I was a baseball junkie then. I remember seeing Roberto when the Pirates came to town. I remember Vin Scully saying that Roberto was a 5 star player (run, hit, hit with power, field and throw). Scully also said that every time he interviewed Clemente, he was never healthy. Roberto would always complain about a nagging pain, but he never let it stop him from playing at a very high level.

I was lucky enough to see in person, Clemente display his arm on several occasions. He had no peer. Clemente was the standard by which ALL other outfielders with notable arms was compared to.

I don't think we'll ever see the likes of that many great players in one era, as we did back then.
Many of those players went on to become legends and "Hall of Famers".

I really enjoyed watching and following the Dodgers and major league baseball back then. Baseball to me, does not have the "awe" factor like it did back then. I miss that.

The "awe factor," to which you correctly refer, has been sadly diminished, as you point out...and organized baseball itself, sad to say, is the culprit...all about money. Excessive expansion, excessive reliance on modifying the greatest of all games to tailor it to perceived fan appeal (lowering the pitcher's mound, the DH rule, interleague play, new and so-called "improved" ballparks). I took a grandson to Fenway two weeks ago, which he loved. We talked about Fenway and Wrigley. Then he asked, "Poppy, do you know what the third oldest major league ballpark is?" I stumbled. " Well," he said, " it's the Los Angeles Coliseum!" No offense to the Chavez Ravine site, but that' one sad commentary!

 

[stamfordhusky]

Dodger Stadium doesn't have the character of Wrigley or Fenway - or of the better new stadiums such as PNC Park, Camden Yards, AT&T. But it is still fairly nice. Nothing like the terrible football-baseball stadiums built in the mid-to-late 60's, such as Shea, Three Rivers, Veterans Stadium, Riverfront, etc. I disagree wholeheartedly about the "new and improved ballparks" comment. A number of the newer stadiums are great. There is a reason fans (Tripadvisor) and analysts (ESPN etc) rank PNC Park ahead of Wrigley and Fenway.

 

[BlueDolphin]

Dodger Stadium doesn't have the character of Wrigley or Fenway - or of the better new stadiums such as PNC Park, Camden Yards, AT&T. But it is still fairly nice. Nothing like the terrible football-baseball stadiums built in the mid-to-late 60's, such as Shea, Three Rivers, Veterans Stadium, Riverfront, etc. I disagree wholeheartedly about the "new and improved ballparks" comment. A number of the newer stadiums are great. There is a reason fans (Tripadvisor) and analysts (ESPN etc) rank PNC Park ahead of Wrigley and Fenway.

The mention of PNC Park in a thread about Clemente is spot on. One of the best things about that lovely ballpark is you get to it by walking across the Roberto Clemente Bridge!

 

[stamfordhusky]

The mention of PNC Park in a thread about Clemente is spot on. One of the best things about that lovely ballpark is you get to it by walking across the Roberto Clemente Bridge!

Yes, great approach to a ballpark. And the Clemente statue at the adjacent entrance to the ballpark.