OT: Rick Kuhn, convicted in BC point shaving scandal, dies.

[swami7774]

Kuhn was a backup forward on the BC Eagles of the late 70s. He, SG Ernie Cobb and PG Jim Sweeney were accused of shaving points in several games(including one vs UConn in early '79). Kuhn was the only one convicted. He served more than 2 years in prison. Cobb(who was drafted by Utah) and Sweeney were banned from the NBA. Kuhn was 69.

 

[dvegas]

Ernie Cobb got shafted. Only participant fully exonerated (by the courts), got blackballed forever by the NBA (might have been too short, but never really got the change). Had a had a cup of coffee in the pro league in Israel. Was a nice guy (FfldCntyFan???), my basketball counselor at summer camp.

 

[temery]

What were they charged with? I get why pt shaving is wrong, but why is it illegal?

 

[swami7774]

What were they charged with? I get why pt shaving is wrong, but why is it illegal?

From memory, Kuhn was charged with conspiracy for meeting with mobsters and exchanging money. Cobb and Sweeney were not charged. It's illegal probably because it affects the integrity of the contest(s).

 

[Vowelguy]

What were they charged with? I get why pt shaving is wrong, but why is it illegal?

fraud?

 

[Drame]

All fraud is illegal. Misrepresenting or cheating or lying by one party that results in another party losing assets or money.

 

[temery]

fraud?

Who is the victim?

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Ernie Cobb got shafted. Only participant fully exonerated (by the courts), got blackballed forever by the NBA (might have been too short, but never really got the change). Had a had a cup of coffee in the pro league in Israel. Was a nice guy (FfldCntyFan???), my basketball counselor at summer camp.

Ernie was a senior at Stamford High my freshman year (as was his cousin Garry, who played in the NFL for about a decade). Garry's family were all better people (and students) than they were athletes.

Ernie wasn't a bad guy but always acted a bit entitled. From what I remember of the point shaving story, he did take money (and admitted to it in court) but thought the cash was just a gesture from a fan. He was adamant that he never shaved points and I believe his stats during the games in question weren't much different than what he did on average in all games.

I also think the whole thing fell apart (leading to it going public) when BC won a game the gamblers (Henry Hill and friends) thought they were going to lose.

 

[UConnDad]

Saw Ernie play in the Schoolboy classic in 1975 at the JCC in Bridgeport. He could shoot from deep. Abromatis was on that team also.

 

[swami7774]

Ernie was a senior at Stamford High my freshman year (as was his cousin Garry, who played in the NFL for about a decade). Garry's family were all better people (and students) than they were athletes.

Ernie wasn't a bad guy but always acted a bit entitled. From what I remember of the point shaving story, he did take money (and admitted to it in court) but thought the cash was just a gesture from a fan. He was adamant that he never shaved points and I believe his stats during the games in question weren't much different than what he did on average in all games.

I also think the whole thing fell apart (leading to it going public) when BC won a game the gamblers (Henry Hill and friends) thought they were going to lose.

Cobb pissed off the syndicate by scoring a bunch of points late in the Holy Cross game, which meant BC covered even though they lost. That right there would indicate he wasn't shaving points.

 

[mmct01]

Point shaving is a Federal crime. I have seen where people think it's a "victimless crime" as if the Casinos are only losers. In reality Casinos don't want people thinking contests are being manipulated by gamblers. They would lose business. Going back to the 1919 Black Sox gamblers and sports do not mix.

 

[Vowelguy]

Who is the victim?

Not a lawyer. Fraud was a guess.
But continuing that....

• Anyone who bought a ticket to the game expecting a fairly contested event.
• Anyone who legally bet on the game.

 

[superjohn]

Who is the victim?

The teammates, the coaches, the other team and coaches, the fans, the bettors, the schools, college basketball etc.

 

[temery]

Not a lawyer. Fraud was a guess.
But continuing that....

• Anyone who bought a ticket to the game expecting a fairly contested event.
• Anyone who legally bet on the game.

I don't understand the gambling argument. The law was passed in the 60s, when sports betting was illegal.

 

[storrsroars]

Ernie was a senior at Stamford High my freshman year (as was his cousin Garry, who played in the NFL for about a decade). Garry's family were all better people (and students) than they were athletes.

Ernie wasn't a bad guy but always acted a bit entitled. From what I remember of the point shaving story, he did take money (and admitted to it in court) but thought the cash was just a gesture from a fan. He was adamant that he never shaved points and I believe his stats during the games in question weren't much different than what he did on average in all games.

I also think the whole thing fell apart (leading to it going public) when BC won a game the gamblers (Henry Hill and friends) thought they were going to lose.

Did I know you were at SHS when I was a senior?

I knew Ernie back at Dolan all the way through SHS. Dude actually bit me once in 8th grade. I completely believe he would have believed the money was a gift and not conditional. He was not an academic star in HS (even he notes he was basically illiterate back then), but I've been very impressed with his finishing his degree on time, and his professional career as a teacher and youth counselor. I've seen interviews he did awhile back and he's like a new person from the kid I remember.

I knew a bunch of guys on that SHS team. Was good friends with Mickey "Goose" Thompson, was forever giving cigs to Ed McIntyre in the boy's room, knew Bob Moffat from elementary school, and a couple others. Funny thing about that SHS team - the guy who actually was convicted of a federal crime was Moffat, who was an exec at IBM and convicted of security fraud sometime around 2010. But you only still hear about Ernie.

(Garry was a year behind Ernie, so a junior when you were a frosh. Ernie and me are 68, Garry is 67).

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Did I know you were at SHS when I was a senior?

I knew Ernie back at Dolan all the way through SHS. Dude actually bit me once in 8th grade. I completely believe he would have believed the money was a gift and not conditional. He was not an academic star in HS (even he notes he was basically illiterate back then), but I've been very impressed with his finishing his degree on time, and his professional career as a teacher and youth counselor. I've seen interviews he did awhile back and he's like a new person from the kid I remember.

I knew a bunch of guys on that SHS team. Was good friends with Mickey "Goose" Thompson, was forever giving cigs to Ed McIntyre in the boy's room, knew Bob Moffat from elementary school, and a couple others. Funny thing about that SHS team - the guy who actually was convicted of a federal crime was Moffat, who was an exec at IBM and convicted of security fraud sometime around 2010. But you only still hear about Ernie.

(Garry was a year behind Ernie, so a junior when you were a frosh. Ernie and me are 68, Garry is 67).

Garry may have been a year younger but both were class of 75. Garry went to USC (when they were as big a name as there was in college football).

I think we went over this a couple years ago on some thread on this board. I was three years behind in school, don't believe our paths crossed back then.

I was class of 78, Michael Cobb (Garry's younger brother) was class of 77 but he and I were in a few classes together in SHS. He went to Cornell. Jimmy (older brother) went to Dartmouth and was a student teacher at Burdick when I was in eight grade. Had him in history and talked about all kinds of things (mostly sports and history) before and after class.

 

[superjohn]

I don't understand the gambling argument. The law was passed in the 60s, when sports betting was illegal.

There's been all sorts of federal and state law over the years to try and break up the mafia controlling sports bookmaking.

 

[uconnbill]

Who is the victim?

The colleges who gave scholarships to these players, that's who. Plus the fans of these teams

 

[temery]

The colleges who gave scholarships to these players, that's who.

that's the only legitimate answer I can see, but their remedy should be civil.

 

[karstenkibbe]

Garry may have been a year younger but both were class of 75. Garry went to USC (when they were as big a name as there was in college football).

I think we went over this a couple years ago on some thread on this board. I was three years behind in school, don't believe our paths crossed back then.

I was class of 78, Michael Cobb (Garry's younger brother) was class of 77 but he and I were in a few classes together in SHS. He went to Cornell. Jimmy (older brother) went to Dartmouth and was a student teacher at Burdick when I was in eight grade. Had him in history and talked about all kinds of things (mostly sports and history) before and after class.

I knew @storrsroars was a Stamford guy. Same with @dvegas … why did I think you were from a little further up the line? I feel like we need a Stamford sports fireside chat, hosted by the great Stamford High alum, Len Gambino (who was my boss at WSTC).

 

[uconnfan68]

Who is the victim?

The bettors.

 

[Dave Carlson]

What were they charged with? I get why pt shaving is wrong, but why is it illegal?

Sports bribery is a crime under Federal law (also under state laws, but Kuhn was prosecuted by the feds)
18 U.S. Code § 224 - Bribery in sporting contests

 

[PAHusky]

You guys realize you can Google “Rick Kuhn charges” to see what he actually was convicted of rather than just guessing right? From the NYT - violation of Federal racketeering statutes, conspiracy and interstate gambling