OT: Props to two female soldiers who earned Ranger. . .

[RockyMTblue2]

If size was everything most men would be lost. Women are not fragile helpless girls. If they went thru Ranger training and passes recycled as it were) obviously the Army thinks they can do the job. Why restrict them? Ask men who were in combat--were all the small guys (the size of women?) helpless or a burden ? Roger Young in the Solomons five ft 3--turned down by marines, Paratroop-- was awarded the Medal of Honor for saving his company who were trapped by a machine gun--size isn't everything!!

You're sorta talking with your heart about outliers. A military force isn't created with a few outliers. Want to win - you structure on %es, not aspirations. I'm in a fire fight, I want someone next to me who can pick me up and run, not drag my butt.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Sounds like a memorable flight. I don't completely share your view about what it takes to qualify for Special Forces duty. Having served with the 7th (2x), the 5th (Nam), and 10th SF Groups, I have a pretty good idea of what it takes in SF. And if a female could cut the mustard, I'd add her to the manifest.

And why the hell not?

You both don't get my message. Whomever cuts the mustard is fine with me, be it male member equipped or not. Just saying women by in large will not cut the mustard for elite forces, but that hardly means they do not have skills for intense, on the line assignments.

 

[alexrgct]

. . .tabs this week at Fort Benning.

Here on the Boneyard - and, to be fair, similar message boards that admire and support women athletes - we are accustomed to seeing and appreciating excellence in (mostly) American women.

Unfortunately, there is an element of our population that doesn't "get it" and some are now denigrating these two soldiers just as they have dissed female firefighters, police officers, airplane pilots and many others who dared to break into male bastions.

Well, I know something about Ranger tabs and I am proud as I can be for these two new Rangers.
View attachment 10259

Hell yes. I'll thank anyone for their service, and would be in awe of a woman who can make such an elite group despite what I imagine are obstacles to overcome.

Dumb question: are than any women SEALS? Different branch of the military, I know- just curious.

 

[sherwood4459]

I believe that Delta Force or whatever they are calling it now had a special detachment that included women.

On the other hand-
There are some women that can beat most men, but the units your talking about are the elite with only the best of the best.

 

[JS]

Dumb question: are than any women SEALS? Different branch of the military, I know- just curious.

Opens to women candidates next year.

 

[vtcwbuff]

I am curious to see if a woman can complete BUDS. They have a higher drop rate than the Rangers.

I saw a talking head yesterday that had a bit of a different perspective. She was a retired Marine Gunnery Sergeant named Jessie Jane Duff. Her point was that in her experience she didn't think that women could handle the long term effects (i.e. months long forward deployed) on bodies that just aren't designed the same as men. She had some anecdotal stuff about fellow female marines with medical issues that she believed were related to long term physical rigors of deployment. She also mentioned that no woman had ever passed (0-29) the Marine Infantry Officer course.

 

[Kibitzer]

One of the new Rangers is a daughter of Connecticut, Captain Kristen Griest, originally from Orange. The other (female) was a 1st lieutenant from Texas. Their classmates were surely a mix of officers and enlisted men. During the course, ranks are suspended and every participant is addressed as, for example, "Ranger Griest."

On thing is highly likely. Neither Lt. Haver nor Capt. Griest will become victims of an unwelcome sexual predator.

 

[bramos]

[During the course, ranks are suspended and every participant is addressed as, for example, "Ranger Griest."]
This reminds me of the time when my class just completed the force march from Camp Darby. At Victory Pond, you climb the pole 30+ feet. Quickly cross to another on boards I swear were 8 inches or less wide. Grab a suspended cable. Pull yourself to a suspended RANGER tab/sign. Then hang on with two hands, asking permission to drop in the water. One young marine tested the Ranger Instructor by saying, "Recon recon, request permission to drop" The RI just ignored him and let the poor Recon hang for a little more..until the Recon was exhausted (read relented) to say "Ranger (Recon) request permission to drop"..The RI, not to be outplayed replied, "Drop Ranger. Then come here and give me 20"

 

[Kibitzer]

[During the course, ranks are suspended and every participant is addressed as, for example, "Ranger Griest."]
One young marine tested the Ranger Instructor by saying, "Recon recon, request permission to drop" The RI just ignored him and let the poor Recon hang for a little more..until the Recon was exhausted (read relented) to say "Ranger (Recon) request permission to drop"..The RI, not to be outplayed replied, "Drop Ranger. Then come here and give me 20"

Only 20? That's an insult to the Corps.

 

[reno tony]

I believe that Delta Force or whatever they are calling it now had a special detachment that included women.

On the other hand-
There are some women that can beat most men, but the units your talking about are the elite with only the best of the best.

At what are these women beating most men? There is an old racing quote "You can't fake horsepower" and that is one problem that all women face.... they don't have the muscular structure of a man. Of course not all men take advantage of their muscular structure and are deficient compared to some women. But when dealing with even the most rudimentary physical skills necessary for SF assignments it is hard for me to imagine a woman able to be successful to the task. Of course sometimes I don't have the greatest imagination.

 

[j66kicker]

At what are these women beating most men? There is an old racing quote "You can't fake horsepower" and that is one problem that all women face.... they don't have the muscular structure of a man. Of course not all men take advantage of their muscular structure and are deficient compared to some women. But when dealing with even the most rudimentary physical skills necessary for SF assignments it is hard for me to imagine a woman able to be successful to the task. Of course sometimes I don't have the greatest imagination.

Suspect endurance is a key factor

 

[FASTEDDY]

As a retired Ranger, I am glad for the integration of skilled female soldiers and welcome them into our community.

 

[Kibitzer]

As a retired Ranger, I am glad for the integration of skilled female soldiers and welcome them into our community.

"​

[ditto]

 

[BroadwayVa]

I am curious to see if a woman can complete BUDS. They have a higher drop rate than the Rangers.

I saw a talking head yesterday that had a bit of a different perspective. She was a retired Marine Gunnery Sergeant named Jessie Jane Duff. Her point was that in her experience she didn't think that women could handle the long term effects (i.e. months long forward deployed) on bodies that just aren't designed the same as men. She had some anecdotal stuff about fellow female marines with medical issues that she believed were related to long term physical rigors of deployment. She also mentioned that no woman had ever passed (0-29) the Marine Infantry Officer course.

I love Marines, gutzy guys (and now gals) in way too many battlefields you had to kill them to stop them. But jessie Jane must forget that women from small towns and big cities in the east hopped aboard Conestoga Wagons and walked or drove cattle over a 1000 mile journey, fought Native Americans along the way, forded flooded rivers, all the time cooking, and bearing children. Anyone who think the Female Gender are not a tough group--think again!! My 101 pound wife has all the features, virtues and vices of those Conestoga Wagon women. The rigors of long term deployment or long term combat creates medical and mental issues for those of all genders--to me that disrespect Women--it is wrong to tell any one they cannot or should not do anything until they are given a chance is wrong!!!

 

[sherwood4459]

It is not a question that the rigors of war effects everyone but the degree which they effect each.
Special operation forces takes a lot of time and resouces to select and train, and military resouces are not unlimited. If a group has a much higher dropout rate you have to consider weeding them out before they consume resouces better spent elsewhere. In war the needs of the military as a whole is what is important not the individual rights. That may sound harsh but if you choose wrong, people will die that would not have died before.

In war many things,not just this issue:weapons,tactics,organization and leadership can be introduced, and it can look fine until exposed in the fires of combat. Complicating the issue, in the case of the US is the enormous amount of fire support America's military has (artillery, A-10s, helicopter gunships up to B52 and B2 strategic bombers. They can cover and hide a lot of weaknesses even though we have been at war for years. Looking 10,15 or 20 years down the road, you don't know what the situation will be that could neutralize those advantages.

 

[Icebear]

As has been said many times and in many ways the temptation is to always be preparing to fight the last war instead of what is emerging as the unknown threat of tomorrow.

 

[BroadwayVa]

As has been said many times and in many ways the temptation is to always be preparing to fight the last war instead of what is emerging as the unknown threat of tomorrow.

That's not the "Temptation", our leaders military and political, are always great in hindsight. Science and technology and analysts are ignored for "this is how we always have done it" mentality!! Good comment!!

 

[BroadwayVa]

It is not a question that the rigors of war effects everyone but the degree which they effect each.
Special operation forces takes a lot of time and resouces to select and train, and military resouces are not unlimited. If a group has a much higher dropout rate you have to consider weeding them out before they consume resouces better spent elsewhere. In war the needs of the military as a whole is what is important not the individual rights. That may sound harsh but if you choose wrong, people will die that would not have died before.

In war many things,not just this issue:weapons,tactics,organization and leadership can be introduced, and it can look fine until exposed in the fires of combat. Complicating the issue, in the case of the US is the enormous amount of fire support America's military has (artillery, A-10s, helicopter gunships up to B52 and B2 strategic bombers. They can cover and hide a lot of weaknesses even though we have been at war for years. Looking 10,15 or 20 years down the road, you don't know what the situation will be that could neutralize those advantages.

In past wars our military have always been surprised and not ready for innovations, tactics, and equipment they were not prepared for.
Cases in point: Hitler developed rockets, Panzers and Tiger tanks--we had no tanks to stop them, Vietnam's tactics of surrounding large units in small unit segments (was known and dismissed by out military in WWII), Mass human attacks in Korea (known and dismissed),
IED attacks in Iraq (insurgents always use what is given ie the cell phone to trigger blasts) Small unit attacks that hit and run have been with the world since Bunker Hill some things you can't plan for.