OT: Kevin Durant

[msgordon]

If anyone somehow thought Durant was better than Lebron, I hope you watched today's game

 

[msgordon]

This could be true.
Can you link to one of his big game winners?

 

[msgordon]

 

[Kitaman]

If anyone somehow thought Durant was better than Lebron, I hope you watched today's game

Lebron is the better player. Durant just seems so natural on the court and makes playing the game look easy (i.e. offensively). Which is why I felt he was born to play basketball.

 

[UConnSwag11]

when you guys think about whos the MVP of the league do you go by whos more important or who has better statistics... like i felt until kevin love got injured him, rondo, and durant were in the lead for the mvp, bc without them their teams wouldnt be where they are(even though love wouldnt have made the playoffs(maybe if rubio didnt get injured) i felt he was the most important player to a team). lebron would be the MOP bc if you take him off the heat his team is still a top 3-4 team so i dont consider him that valuable... ive wondered what peoples definition of mvp is

 

[aceboon]

Kevin Love? Minnesota didn't even become competitive until Rubio came over, and then once he tore his ACL they went right back to losing games again.

when you guys think about whos the MVP of the league do you go by whos more important or who has better statistics... like i felt until kevin love got injured him, rondo, and durant were in the lead for the mvp, bc without them their teams wouldnt be where they are(even though love wouldnt have made the playoffs(maybe if rubio didnt get injured) i felt he was the most important player to a team). lebron would be the MOP bc if you take him off the heat his team is still a top 3-4 team so i dont consider him that valuable... ive wondered what peoples definition of mvp is

 

[ConnHuskBask]

I think the only thing that is certain is that he should have stayed another year at Texas.

Imagine how good he'd be now..

 

[selles]

Lebron is the better player. Durant just seems so natural on the court and makes playing the game look easy (i.e. offensively). Which is why I felt he was born to play basketball.

I wouldn't backtrack, I think your initial post was correct. Best player is a tossup at the moment. Hopefully we'll see a head-to-head finals and they can answer the question.

 

[aceboon]

Oden was actually playing quite well in the season he fractured his patella tendon, the last time he was on the court. He was averaging 11pts, 8 rebs, 2.4blks, and shooting 60% from the floor, and 16pts in the previous 10 games right before the kneecap fracture. That was what was so bad about the injury, besides the fact that it was gruesome, he was actually showing signs of putting it all together and dominating for stretches.

I agree it's very sad. Well, except for the part about him making millions of dollars. I suppose there are probably 5 billion people or so who would trade places with GO, so, while I'm sad about the basketball potential lost, the guy has got a great life if he lives it without dwelling on what could have been.

Not sure about your speculation. He didn't seem to get the game, even when he was healthy. Dude kept getting in early foul trouble, and would show up intermittently.

But I agree - physical tools and aggression and skills that could have translated into a 30/15 type guy in his best years.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Durant has a ways to go before he's considered a top 20 player all-time, but he is well on his way to being one of the great, effortless scorers of all-time.

He's a couple of years away from being the Jabbar, Gervin, West, Erving and English class of killing it softly.

His game oozes smooth.

 

[champs99and04]

when you guys think about whos the MVP of the league do you go by whos more important or who has better statistics... like i felt until kevin love got injured him, rondo, and durant were in the lead for the mvp, bc without them their teams wouldnt be where they are(even though love wouldnt have made the playoffs(maybe if rubio didnt get injured) i felt he was the most important player to a team). lebron would be the MOP bc if you take him off the heat his team is still a top 3-4 team so i dont consider him that valuable... ive wondered what peoples definition of mvp is

IMO, it's crazy to say the Heat are a top 3-4 team without LeBron. Have you watched games two, three, and four of the Heat-Pacers series? They have struggled to just reach 80 points, and today it took heroic efforts from LeBron and Wade to hold off the Pacers. I still think the Pacers win this series and it won't be because of anything LeBron didn't do, it will be because they have about six or seven players better than Miami's third best player (minus Bosh).

Miami's likely a five or six seed in the east if they are lucky IMO, and probably bounced in the first round. I would argue that the Thunder are still a playoff team without Durant, and the Celtics are still a playoff team without Rondo. I don't think the Wolves were a playoff team, but you could make a case for Kevin Love if they did.

Bottom line, I respect your opinion but I think LeBron was MVP by a significant margin this season. I think of MVP in terms of "who has the most value"? Not to his team, but the most value period. You'd be hard pressed to not say LeBron if you're answering that question honestly.

 

[champs99and04]

While there was speculation that Durant could end up going #1 because of the absolutely spectacular freshman season that he put up combined with the fact that there had never been a prospect quite like him (being billed as a 6'11" SG), it was pretty clear that Oden would have been the choice by nearly every team in the league. Oden had been extremely hyped all throughout high school as the next "big thing", and he didn't do too badly once he finally played in college either, being the best player on an eventual national runner-up. But I can't stress how much Oden was hyped. There were a lot of people saying that he was the next Bill Russell, a center who would be great offensively, but really dominate the game on defense and on the boards. Being compared to Russell, who some claim is the best player of all-time, is some high praise. Combine that with the fact that in the draft you always draft "big" and Oden was the clear pick at the time. (As an aside, I strongly encourage everyone to read the Grantland article about Greg Oden. Very insightful and just a good read overall. Link Here)

As for the LeBron v. Durant debate, give me LeBron. I know he's not labeled as a "winner" and it's an unpopular pick because the guy is so polarizing, but the difference for me is that LeBron is essentially a point guard. A massive, insanely athletic point guard who is great in every facet of the game. Durant is getting better and better as a passer and defender, but he's not even close to LeBron in those areas. LeBron is the most versatile defender in the league, and there was a strong case to be made that he could have been defensive player of the year this year. Defense is half of the game and LeBron stands pretty far ahead of Durant in that regard.

Also, something that I feel is never brought up enough and is often lost in the LeBron "no heart, isn't a winner" discussion is that, as a 22 year old, he essentially single-handedly willed the Cavs to the NBA Finals. Durant is currently 23 and has a much, much better team around him than LeBron did in Cleveland. That much isn't very close. But not only did LeBron carry the team to the Finals in just his fourth season in the league, but he had some impossibly clutch performances down the stretch that season. Most notably, Game 5 of the ECF LeBron scored the Cavs' last 25 points, and 29 of their last 30 in a 2-point OT win. To this day, I don't recall seeing a more clutch performance (other than Kemba's heroics of course!).

When it comes down to it, LeBron impacts the game in more ways than Durant. Durant may be seen as a better scorer, but through their first 5 years in the league, LeBron even averaged more points and at a more efficient rate. Durant is an absolute stud, and at his current pace is going to go down as one of the all-time greats. But despite his shortcomings, LeBron James is still the best player in basketball by a decently wide margin.

I thought this post was right on the money. Personally, I hate it when fans and pundits demean a player in a team sport because he doesn't have a ring, or isn't considered a "winner". Especially in this case, when we're talking about two players who don't have a ring.

I'm really, really tired of all the LeBron "3 quarter" and "zero rings" jokes. People have incredibly selective memories when it comes to discussing LeBron James. You're right, LeBron's performance in game five of the Detroit series was among the most breath taking and clutch performances I've ever seen. I was casually scanning the box scores of the Orlando-Cleveland series from 2009, and LeBron must have averaged something like 35 points per game in that series to go along with a significant number of rebounds and assists. He did everything but literally carry the team on his back in that series, yet to this day, people still think he should have done more.

LeBron's had two subpar postseason series in his career: Boston in 2010, and Dallas in 2011, yet, those are the only series his critics remember.

Do I think LeBron is an assasin like Durant or Jordan? No. But his crunch time numbers aren't nearly as poor as people would like to believe, and I could go down the line and find several clutch postseason performances throughout the course of his career if somebody wanted me to. How about game seven of the 2008 East semis against Boston when LeBron scored 45 points and almost knocked off the eventual champions with a supporting cast of Wally Z, Delonte West, and Booby Gibson? Is that clutch enough for you?

If you watched the game today and still consider LeBron "heartless" or "soft", then you're just being a . With Chris Bosh out, he had to defend anybody from Danny Granger to David West, grab 10+ rebounds, and run the offense nearly every possesion because his teammates can't create for themselves. Millions of fans were ready to crush him and demean his unbelievable talents if he failed to articulate anything less than a superman type individual performance, yet, he somehow surpassed expectations.

40 points, 18 rebounds, 9 assists, 2 steals, 3 blocks. Just f'in amazing. I would go as far to call the guy underrated.

 

[champs99and04]

While there was speculation that Durant could end up going #1 because of the absolutely spectacular freshman season that he put up combined with the fact that there had never been a prospect quite like him (being billed as a 6'11" SG), it was pretty clear that Oden would have been the choice by nearly every team in the league. Oden had been extremely hyped all throughout high school as the next "big thing", and he didn't do too badly once he finally played in college either, being the best player on an eventual national runner-up. But I can't stress how much Oden was hyped. There were a lot of people saying that he was the next Bill Russell, a center who would be great offensively, but really dominate the game on defense and on the boards. Being compared to Russell, who some claim is the best player of all-time, is some high praise. Combine that with the fact that in the draft you always draft "big" and Oden was the clear pick at the time. (As an aside, I strongly encourage everyone to read the Grantland article about Greg Oden. Very insightful and just a good read overall. Link Here)

As for the LeBron v. Durant debate, give me LeBron. I know he's not labeled as a "winner" and it's an unpopular pick because the guy is so polarizing, but the difference for me is that LeBron is essentially a point guard. A massive, insanely athletic point guard who is great in every facet of the game. Durant is getting better and better as a passer and defender, but he's not even close to LeBron in those areas. LeBron is the most versatile defender in the league, and there was a strong case to be made that he could have been defensive player of the year this year. Defense is half of the game and LeBron stands pretty far ahead of Durant in that regard.

Also, something that I feel is never brought up enough and is often lost in the LeBron "no heart, isn't a winner" discussion is that, as a 22 year old, he essentially single-handedly willed the Cavs to the NBA Finals. Durant is currently 23 and has a much, much better team around him than LeBron did in Cleveland. That much isn't very close. But not only did LeBron carry the team to the Finals in just his fourth season in the league, but he had some impossibly clutch performances down the stretch that season. Most notably, Game 5 of the ECF LeBron scored the Cavs' last 25 points, and 29 of their last 30 in a 2-point OT win. To this day, I don't recall seeing a more clutch performance (other than Kemba's heroics of course!).

When it comes down to it, LeBron impacts the game in more ways than Durant. Durant may be seen as a better scorer, but through their first 5 years in the league, LeBron even averaged more points and at a more efficient rate. Durant is an absolute stud, and at his current pace is going to go down as one of the all-time greats. But despite his shortcomings, LeBron James is still the best player in basketball by a decently wide margin.

I thought this post was right on the money. Personally, I hate it when fans and pundits demean a player in a team sport because he doesn't have a ring, or isn't considered a "winner". Especially in this case, when we're talking about two players who don't have a ring.

I'm really, really tired of all the LeBron "3 quarter" and "zero rings" jokes. People have incredibly selective memories when it comes to discussing LeBron James. You're right, LeBron's performance in game five of the Detroit series was among the most breath taking and clutch performances I've ever seen. I was casually scanning the box scores of the Orlando-Cleveland series from 2009, and LeBron must have averaged something like 35 points per game in that series to go along with a significant number of rebounds and assists. He did everything but literally carry the team on his back in that series, yet to this day, people still think he should have done more.

LeBron's had two subpar postseason series in his career: Boston in 2010, and Dallas in 2011, yet, those are the only series his critics remember.

Do I think LeBron is an assasin like Durant or Jordan? No. But his crunch time numbers aren't nearly as poor as people would like to believe, and I could go down the line and find several clutch postseason performances throughout the course of his career if somebody wanted me to. How about game seven of the 2008 East semis against Boston when LeBron scored 45 points and almost knocked off the eventual champions with a supporting cast of Wally Z, Delonte West, and Booby Gibson? Is that clutch enough for you?

If you watched the game today and still consider LeBron "heartless" or "soft", then you're just being a . With Chris Bosh out, he had to defend anybody from Danny Granger to David West, grab 10+ rebounds, and run the offense nearly every possesion because his teammates can't create for themselves. Millions of fans were ready to crush him and demean his unbelievable talents if he failed to articulate anything less than a superman type individual performance, yet, he somehow surpassed expectations.

40 points, 18 rebounds, 9 assists, 2 steals, 3 blocks. Just f'in amazing. I would go as far to call the guy underrated.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Bottom line is as of now Lebron is on the starting five that includes Reggie Miller, Lebron, Dominique Wilkins, Charles Barkley and Patrick Ewing that combined have won jack shitttt.

Maybe some day in future Lebron leads a franchise to a championship but right now he has nothing on his resume better than Reggie choking out the Knicks at MSG, Barkley going for 40+ on Chris Webber in their primes or Dominque going mano a mano with Bird. Common theme? None of those moments led to a championship..

If Lebron wants to be mentioned with the greats, it has to happen in the finals and lead to a win. Otherwise, he can take a seat with the rest of the almost was.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Bottom line is as of now Lebron is on the starting five that includes Reggie Miller, Lebron, Dominique Wilkins, Charles Barkley and Patrick Ewing that combined have won jack ****ttt.

Maybe some day in future Lebron leads a franchise to a championship but right now he has nothing on his resume better than Reggie choking out the Knicks at MSG, Barkley going for 40+ on Chris Webber in their primes or Dominque going mano a mano with Bird. Common theme? None of those moments led to a championship..

If Lebron wants to be mentioned with the greats, it has to happen in the finals and lead to a win. Otherwise, he can take a seat with the rest of the almost was.

As fun as it is, I guess, for some of you to say things like this, the Heat started Dexter Pittman at center in a game this series. At some point you have to pay attention to the talent on any given team.

 

[Dogdeacon]

I think the only thing that is certain is that he should have stayed another year at Texas.

Imagine how good he'd be now..

Rose, Durant, Carmelo - there's always going to be a number of spectacularly talented superstars who will be great almost regardless of the path. Requiring more college wouldn't help these guys (did requring 1yr hurt Durant, NO - help him?? MAYBE) although I think fans of Texas, Memphis and Syracuse wouldn't have minded seeing them one more year. But other key OKC players did develop while in college including; James Harden (2), Russell Westbrook (2) and even Ibaka who played 2 years in Spain (same as minor leagues if there were decent one in US aka college basketball). Lakers are losing to this squad cuz they have 2 of their top 3 in Kobe and Bynum with no college experience

 

[UConn990411]

LeBron's had two subpar postseason series in his career: Boston in 2010, and Dallas in 2011, yet, those are the only series his critics remember.

Well, those are also the two most recent, so that makes some sense. And, whether true or not, he's criticized for giving up in the Boston series and standing in the corner too afraid to shoot in the 4th quarter of the Dallas series.

While I think LeBron's received more unwarranted, over-the-top criticism than maybe any athlete ever (he's never committed a crime as far as I can recall), he set himself up for all of this with "The Decision" and the "Not 1, not 2, not 3..." campaign.

 

[Walker11]

Do you all think KD will bail for a bigger market when his contract is up?

He already reupped, he just didn't have a TV special.

 

[aceboon]

He already reupped, he just didn't have a TV special.

"The Decision" was assinine but the situations aren't comparable, Durant was going to be a RFA and not going to be able to go anywhere without the Thunder matching whoever offered him a contract if he ever got to that point.

 

[Excalibur]

I don't think so. As I remember, it wasn't a clear cut decision. They were both seen as can't-miss prospects. Blazers went with Oden because of a team need.

The general logic was that a great center is harder to find than a great 3, so you have to take the big. There was a vocal minority (that I was a part of) that favored Durant as a potential once in a generation player. However, I don't think anyone thought that Oden would be as fragile as he is.

 

[Dogdeacon]

"The Decision" was assinine but the situations aren't comparable, Durant was going to be a RFA and not going to be able to go anywhere without the Thunder matching whoever offered him a contract if he ever got to that point.

No they are 100% comparable. Yes Durant signed a year early, but he easily could have elected not to sign like LeBron did (granted his 3rd contract) and become a free agent and have a season of speculation. The biggest difference is of course that OKC was patient and built a young club around its young star as opposed to the Cavs who kept trying to a quick-fix to surround LeBron with good players and ended up with mediocre complimentary pieces.

Kind of like the Heat now except they have 2-3 stars. That's the other problem with LeBron, it was selfish (taxes) to pick Miami and not the best basketball team (Chicago) IF the sole reason he wanted to leave Cleveland really was to win.

 

[aceboon]

As usual, you are completely clueless. "Not to sign like Lebron did"...what does that even mean? This was Durant's 2nd contract, he either signs a max contract for 6 years or goes for the 3 year deal that gives him the option for free agency sooner like Bron, Wade, & Bosh did. Durant was going to be a RESTRICTED Free Agent, not Bron who was a UNRESTRICTED Free Agent because this was his 3rd contract. The only other option would be to take a 1 year contract tender, play that out, and then become and unrestricted free agent and that would really make no sense for a player in Durant's position. The only other high profile player to use that option of accepting a 1 year tender has been BG and that worked out for him money wise.

Also OKC wasn't really patient, they just sucked that badly in Durant's first few years that they were able to land high lottery picks like Westbrook & Harden(Ibaka was a great pick tho), compared to Bron, whose teams either finished at the back end of the lottery or made the playoffs in his early years.

No they are 100% comparable. Yes Durant signed a year early, but he easily could have elected not to sign like LeBron did (granted his 3rd contract) and become a free agent and have a season of speculation. The biggest difference is of course that OKC was patient and built a young club around its young star as opposed to the Cavs who kept trying to a quick-fix to surround LeBron with good players and ended up with mediocre complimentary pieces.

Kind of like the Heat now except they have 2-3 stars. That's the other problem with LeBron, it was selfish (taxes) to pick Miami and not the best basketball team (Chicago) IF the sole reason he wanted to leave Cleveland really was to win.

 

[UConn990411]

Kind of like the Heat now except they have 2-3 stars. That's the other problem with LeBron, it was selfish (taxes) to pick Miami and not the best basketball team (Chicago) IF the sole reason he wanted to leave Cleveland really was to win.

This is such hindsight bulls**t.

When LeBron, Wade, and Bosh first joined forces, everyone thought they'd be an unstoppable force - while the Bulls would have been the favorites in the East, no one would have thought the same about them (remember, this was pre-MVP Derrick Rose).

And if LeBron was only thinking about the money like you imply, he would've have re-upped with Cleveland where he could've signed for A LOT more than Chicago, Miami, New York, etc.

Do I think winning was the only thing that factored into LeBron's decision? No. But you don't take less money, sacrifice your numbers, and team up with two All-Stars if winning championships isn't very important to you.

 

[Dogdeacon]

This is such hindsight bulls**t.

When LeBron, Wade, and Bosh first joined forces, everyone thought they'd be an unstoppable force - while the Bulls would have been the favorites in the East, no one would have thought the same about them (remember, this was pre-MVP Derrick Rose).

And if LeBron was only thinking about the money like you imply, he would've have re-upped with Cleveland where he could've signed for A LOT more than Chicago, Miami, New York, etc.

Do I think winning was the only thing that factored into LeBron's decision? No. But you don't take less money, sacrifice your numbers, and team up with two All-Stars if winning championships isn't very important to you.

I gave 2 possible reasons in ADDITION to winning that LeBron signed with Miami. My guess is others were lifestyle, playing with friends. Winning was on the list, but it simply was not the only consideration as he said - not me. And of course HE thought they'd win multiple titles as he is on record for saying that was the most important reason and predicting not 6 etc...


As far as 'everyone thought they were an unstoppable force' that's hyperbole, but Miami was favored to win both last year and this year. They still might be the best bet because San Antonio & OKC are 50-50 to get past each other whereas even with the Bosh injury Heat are still the favorites to come out of the east. But so what, any team with LeBron on it is immediately the title favorite witness the Cavs who went from perennial eastern contenders (61-21 LeBron's last yr) to 19-63 post-LeBron cuz there was nothing else on that roster. Add LeBron to the Knicks and they would have been immediatley in the mix. But the Bulls? Sure Rose didn't have his MVP yet, but he put up 16.8PPG and 6.3 apg, 3.9 boards his ROOKIE OF THE YEAR season, then 20.8, 6 assists and 3.7 boards the year you think no one knew he was good. Who could have projected he'd score 25ppg with 7 assists and 4.1 boards the next year - I'd say anyone paying attention but you might contend only Nostradamus and certainly not an opponent that sees him more than ten times a year. After all DRose only averaged 27pts and 7 assists in the Bulls playoff series vs the Cavs in 2010. Point is add LeBron to the Bulls and they were immediate favorites for a very long time with LeBron choosing a complimentary player and younger player to run with. I specifically remember BSimmons writing about fearing him picking Chicago cuz they'd be an immediate dynasty threat.
Here's a link (check out #3 midway down:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/100514&sportCat=nba
Only problem 'haters' would have had with Chicago is it would have been too much good fortune for Chicago (b/c they also had MJ) and many likely would have accused LeBron of copying MJ. LeBron kind of was in a no-win situation.

Acebon I haven't a clue why you are bent out of shape I said the same thing you did that Durant was a year away from being a free agent, congratulations for spelling out exactly how he could have got there. It is relevant because Durant, unlike LeBron didn't take either the long (3yr) or quick route to full free agency AND he chose to resign long-term with little fanfare. By 'not to sign like LeBron did' I meant play your final year with unknown future and 'test the waters' or whatever the euphemsim is for becoming a free agent and bolting (see Cavs meltdown and LeBron quitting vs Celtics - first reason people started questioning him). To say the contract signings of 2 of the top 5 basketball players in the NBA are not comparable strikes me as a bit ridiculous. No?

PS - I think LeBron is WAyyyy better than Durant right now, though I'm not certain who is more likely to win multiple titles. But it'd be nuts to say LeBron is not the better player, Durant hasn't had his game dissected the way LeBron has and has been relatively under the radar. For that reason among others I think OKC likely has to try and fail versus the Spurs to ascend to the title.

 

[aceboon]

Dude, they're not comparable at all because Durant wasn't going anywhere, because he couldn't. The way the CBA is set up a team pretty much controls your rights for at least the first 7 years. Durant re-upped to a deal that he pretty much had to take(or take the 3 year extension), his situation was nothing like Lebron's because Lebron had already been through that stage in his career.

As an aside, people make way too much of a big deal about Durant signing long term in OKC. I know that wasn't your point but I've seen it on here and in the national media. I'm sure if LeBron had a top 5 PG(Westbrook), top 5 SG(Harden), and the best shotblocker in the game while he was in Cleveland he would've likely committed there long term as well.