ot: hbo the wire

[Vuce]

Absolutely fabulous show. Great writing, and great casting. They pulled in a fascinating array of different actors for the show, many of whom are making their mark throughout TV. (Clark Johnson, who played Gus on the Wire, has become a great TV director. Just noticed in the past week that he directed an episode of "Homeland" - also a very good show - and "The Walking Dead.") BTW - Snoop is supposed to be in Hartford at the Wadsworth!

Johnson also played Detective Meldrick Lewis on the NBC show Homicide: Life on the Street. That show is based on David Simon's book Homicide: Life on the Killing Streets. That also was a very good show for NBC back in the early 90's. Obviously they could not do as much with it as The Wire as it was on network TV. Some great actors appeared in Homicide like Andre Braugher (Pembleton) and Melissa Leo.

 

[M_Funkhauser43!]

Lol. Yeah, I got you.

My main objection is to the idea that The Wire "does things" other shows just can't or won't. I don't think that's more true for The Wire than it is for the 5 - 10 other truly classic shows that have emerged in the last 15 years. You're obviously, right, though, too. That scene expertly introduces the character, is very funny, is "authentic" in it's own, all while being 90% unintelligble (at least Snoop's part).

I just don't like the condescending notion that the Wire is the only work of art that's ever been "demanding." Just arguing against that generic idea - which I feel like most you aren't defending anyway.

First off, I don't think anyone argues that The Wire is "the only work of art" that is demanding, so you're creating a straw man there.

Secondly, your argument that The Wire is not a show that "'does things' other shows can't or won't" would be better supported by examples of other shows to which The Wire is comparable.

 

[NaughtybyNapier]

No offense taken, though your own rhetoric could use a bit of toning down too. You also seem to blow a hole in your own argument using the example of one poster in this thread and how he wound up buying into the hype.

First off, when I said that the show challenges viewers, I didn't mean that it made itself difficult to follow. The muddling of good guy/bad guy roles is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to "challenging viewers," and The Wire is, as far as I know, the first cops and criminals show to do so. I never said anything about literature or film, but television doesn't typically question the sanctity of American institutions such as the police force and the government. I'd be interested to know of other television shows that do because I'd like to see them as well.

Also, what other show on television has ever dealt with the kind of subject matter with which The Wire deals? Watching kids dealing drugs on street corners, junkies shooting up and teenagers being executed by their peers hasn't typically been the kind of programming most viewers tune into to fill their leisure time. On that level, The Wire is not an easy or comfortable show to watch.

The third way that the Wire challenges viewers is by posing to them the following question: if you measure a society by how it takes care of its most marginalized citizens, how does America stack up? That's really at the heart of Season Four. Did America declare a war on its own citizens when it launched the War on Drugs? That's one of the show's major themes. Whether or not you agree with David Simon's politics is not the point here; the point is that the show asks big questions like those above. I don't know of another television show that asks its viewers to consider a concept as big as American nationalism the way the Wire does.

I'm sorry if you find any of this haughty or pretentious, but it's what I get out of the show. Moreover, it's good drama because, from what I've heard, read and experienced, it's real.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, which I find neither haughty or pretentious. I appreciate it.

First, who said I had a (coherent) argument!?

Second, fair point about the subject matter and its handling of it on large and serious and grand terms as new in a sense. Not sure if I buy the argument that the idea or depiction of civic corruption was mind-blowing to an HBO-watching American viewer in 2002, but, yes, the Wire did delve into a lot of new kind of stuff in a more series and sophisticated way than, say, Menace II Society, and created a truly great tapestry to set the drama to.

On the "big questions" point. I think I kind of have to hold my tongue. I agree the show was "asking" those questions, but I don't think it was answering them as straightfowardly as you perhaps do. (Don't mean that in a sarcastic way at all). I can feel great sympathy for Dookie without having to repudiate vast tracts of American political orthodoxy on both sides of the aisle.

I think other shows ask big questions, too. If you wanted to pigeonhole them, you could expatiate for days about how the Sopranos or Deadwood or Mad Men, etc. are tackling the theme of America in big ambitious ways, some more metaphorical than others.

But, in summary, I think you made some very good points and I agree with a lot of what you're saying.

 

[NaughtybyNapier]

Um, Hamsterdam isn't a pipe dream. Switzerland, based on a measure passed by 68% of voters, distributes prescription heroin to users and provides sterile environments in which to use. Previous safe zones for heroin distribution and use in Bern and Zurich succeeded in lowering drug-related crime in those cities, but they also drew heroin addicts from further afield where there was less tolerance, making that tactic unsustainable.

Furthermore, the larger point of Hamsterdam is to argue that anyone in an institution of power who challenges the War on Drugs will be immediately shown the door. Suggesting legalization of drugs cost one Baltimore mayor his political career.

In America - in that Baltimore - it most certainly was a pipe dream. As you said, the mere insinuation cost a real politician his career. (To be fair, that doesn't mean, per se, that it couldn't work. Just that it was politically impractical.)

And Bunny/Simon perpetrated Hamsterdam with "good intentions" but also with a certain recklessness as to the actual results. On some level it felt like narrative masturbation, but on the other hand, I felt like Simon's belief that America is so draconian in its stance on the WoD that he himself viewed it as completely far-fetched - and that sense of the absurdity of it taking hold via police fiat (albeit renegade police) contributed to the lighthanded, comedic way it unfolded throughout the season.

But enough politics. Just on a visceral level, when Bubbles is walking past the demolished Hamsterdam at season's end and unsuspectingly tells its wistful author that it "used to be a pretty nice place" or something to that effect...did you really find Bubble's recollection to be accurate? Did you agree with him? I felt like, as much as Simon would want us to end the WoD, the show is ultimately fairly "responsible" in showing the ugly side of the drug use and a drug colony. (And in that sense we would then move to the chicken or egg root of this whole thing: essentially, whose fault is it that Dookie's parents are monsters: Ronald Reagan, Rayful Edmond, or Mr and Mrs Dookie.)

 

[NaughtybyNapier]

First off, I don't think anyone argues that The Wire is "the only work of art" that is demanding, so you're creating a straw man there.

Secondly, your argument that The Wire is not a show that "'does things' other shows can't or won't" would be better supported by examples of other shows to which The Wire is comparable.

My use of quotes around "demanding" was meant to show my self-awareness - and facetitiousness - in making that mock claim. In the very next line after I said "demanding," I myself conceded that I was arguing against a strawman: Just arguing against that generic idea - which I feel like most you aren't defending anyway.

It was an explanation of my tone and an attempt to pinpoint where my specific objection to Wire adulators lies, especially considering that I'm a big Wire fan myself.

On the second point, again, I'm apologize if I haven't been enable to demonstrate my sense of humor when writing some of this (ridiculous) stuff and using quotes to underscore that. I'm trying to distill in admittedly over-the-top bytes the same sense of triumphalism and elan with which Wire fans will proclaim the show as the GOAT.

Really short version of where I stand: count me in the camp that thinks the Wire is Top 5-ish of all-time.

 

[Walker11]

I don't pay much mind to whether or not the Wire is an artistic masterpiece or handled subject matters in a way never seen in t.v. before. I can tell you that its a helluva entertaining t.v. show. Season 4 is possibly my favorite season of any show.

 

[M_Funkhauser43!]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, which I find neither haughty or pretentious. I appreciate it.

First, who said I had a (coherent) argument!?

Second, fair point about the subject matter and its handling of it on large and serious and grand terms as new in a sense. Not sure if I buy the argument that the idea or depiction of civic corruption was mind-blowing to an HBO-watching American viewer in 2002, but, yes, the Wire did delve into a lot of new kind of stuff in a more series and sophisticated way than, say, Menace II Society, and created a truly great tapestry to set the drama to.

On the "big questions" point. I think I kind of have to hold my tongue. I agree the show was "asking" those questions, but I don't think it was answering them as straightfowardly as you perhaps do. (Don't mean that in a sarcastic way at all). I can feel great sympathy for Dookie without having to repudiate vast tracts of American political orthodoxy on both sides of the aisle.

I think other shows ask big questions, too. If you wanted to pigeonhole them, you could expatiate for days about how the Sopranos or Deadwood or Mad Men, etc. are tackling the theme of America in big ambitious ways, some more metaphorical than others.

But, in summary, I think you made some very good points and I agree with a lot of what you're saying.

I appreciate your comments. I just wanted to add I'm not arguing that tuning into The Wire suddenly makes people aware that civic corruption exists or that kids are being raised by addicts and murdering one another over drug money. My argument is that it's impressive to see a television show tackle these issues and ask its audience to stay tuned, whether or not they agree with the messages.

Also, I don't think I answered any of the questions that I argue the show poses. I just teased them out. I think the show is much more straightforward in answering them than I was in my post. Perhaps you don't agree with David Simon's politics, but The Wire seems to have been effective in eliciting a response from you to its messaging. Like I said, the show asks you to consider these issues and it looks like you've done so.

Furthermore, it bears mention that The Wire lost money for HBO during its run on television, but the execs there thought the subject matter was important enough to see the show through to its conclusion. There was never any inkling that the show would be become this popular after it finished airing. I think that speaks very highly to the artistic integrity of the show, once again, regardless of whether or not you agree with the points its creators are trying to make.

 

[NaughtybyNapier]

I appreciate your comments. I just wanted to add I'm not arguing that tuning into The Wire suddenly makes people aware that civic corruption exists or that kids are being raised by addicts and murdering one another over drug money. My argument is that it's impressive to see a television show tackle these issues and ask its audience to stay tuned, whether or not they agree with the messages.

Also, I don't think I answered any of the questions that I argue the show poses. I just teased them out. I think the show is much more straightforward in answering them than I was in my post. Perhaps you don't agree with David Simon's politics, but The Wire seems to have been effective in eliciting a response from you to its messaging. Like I said, the show asks you to consider these issues and it looks like you've done so.

Furthermore, it bears mention that The Wire lost money for HBO during its run on television, but the execs there thought the subject matter was important enough to see the show through to its conclusion. There was never any inkling that the show would be become this popular after it finished airing. I think that speaks very highly to the artistic integrity of the show, once again, regardless of whether or not you agree with the points its creators are trying to make.

Agree 100%. Right on.

Thanks for the respectful back-and-forth. Sorry one more time if I came off as rude or combative. I look forward to more badinage down the road. Nice talking with you. Take care, M-Funk!

 

[Deepster]

Count me in with the "greatest show of all time" crew.

Honestly, since watching the entire series, I haven't watched much TV. Everything else I tried paled in comparison and disappointed me (Weeds, Mad Men, Dexter). I loved everything about The Wire.

You come at the king, you best not miss.... - Omar

 

[Burnsbros23]

everything has already been said

 

[Huskies320]

Best show in the history of television

 

[crownfox2]

To M_Funkhauser 43 who messaged that the Wire was the only TV show where the morality of the police was questione I would suggest The Shield another top ten series. There is also coming up a new series based on the corrupt Ramparts Division in the L.A. Dept.

 

[caw]

There are a lot of things in The Wire that are done very well, almost perfectly. The ending was even well done and I love the season ending montages they go through.

I was not a fan of the newspaper aspect of the final season. It didn't mesh as well as previous seasons did for me. Of course, it could also have been because it followed season 4 which was amazing.

I think I liked it as 4, 3, 1, 5, 2

 

[BUHusky]

It's the greatest show of all time. And season 4 is the greatest season of television ever made. EOM.

 

[HartbeatHusky]

The Wire is one of the all time greatest shows ever. I didn't care for season 2 at first but after watching it again realized it was pretty good and tied some things together. The second to last and last seasons were amazing as was the first. HBO probably has created the best shows in recent memory with The Wire, Sopranos, Boardwalk Empire, and Game of Thrones.

 

[Coach McGurk]

as far as great HBO shows I think Rome and to a lesser extent Deadwood need to be included also....(and let us not forget the fraggles.... )
As for the wire, I used to curse that show....once and a while HBO would run marathons of it and it seemed like the worst show because I had no idea what was going on....(sort of the same way I felt about OZ)....you simply NEED to see every episode in order.
Great production value...the writing isn't dummed down to the audience...nothing is re-capped, nothing is broken down and simplified....it is sink or swim.
I don't know if it is the BEST show ever (arrested development?) but it is top 5 (perhaps top 2-3)
just look here...
http://the-best-tv-shows.com/

 

[OkaForPrez]

I'm 4 episodes into season 3.

I went back and read the "starting 5" thread that people were throwing out wire characters in recently, I can't believe Frank Szobotka didn't make that list. I thought his story and character were heart-breakingly awesome.

 

[NittanyHusky]

Absolutely the best show I've seen. Folks who aren't familiar with the political scene here in Baltimore don't realize how accurate The Wire's depiction of local politicians was. It really showed how intricately well David Simon knew this city inside and out which made the show just that much more realistic. I used to see them film around where I work all the time. Too bad I didn't know anything about the show back then.

 

[HartbeatHusky]

as far as great HBO shows I think Rome and to a lesser extent Deadwood need to be included also....(and let us not forget the fraggles.... )
As for the wire, I used to curse that show....once and a while HBO would run marathons of it and it seemed like the worst show because I had no idea what was going on....(sort of the same way I felt about OZ)....you simply NEED to see every episode in order.
Great production value...the writing isn't dummed down to the audience...nothing is re-capped, nothing is broken down and simplified....it is sink or swim.
I don't know if it is the BEST show ever (arrested development?) but it is top 5 (perhaps top 2-3)
just look here...
http://the-best-tv-shows.com/

Wow, forgot about Rome. Rome was awesome. Never really got into Deadwood but want to see it now.

 

[kemba]

By far my favorite show of all time. Almost through the whole series twice now.

 

[crownfox2]

Thanks Coach McGurk for jarring the old gray cells a remembering another all time best series....OZ

 

[ConnHuskBask]

Just starting to watch, what do people think?

I watched it this summer from Season 1 - Season 5 and I loved it. I would put it 1a/1b with The Sopranos as my favorite series of all time.

If I was you, I would ignore most of the banter in this thread and just watch it yourself. It's really compelling television and you can draw your own conclusions about the shows social commentary yourself without any preconceived biases from other peoples opinions.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

Not much more I can say that hasn't already been said. To me, it is by far my favorite TV show. Nothing is really even that close. As someone else pointed out, there are very few completely good or bad characters. You end up endeared to hardened killers plenty in the show. It goes to why they are the way they are.

What really makes it stand above all others for me is how so many separate story lines are seamlessly tied together. I love seeing the same issues from every angle and then the interaction between all those different factions. It makes you realize just how similar all these different parts of city life (police, city hall, drug dealers can really be). It takes a couple of episodes to really get into it, after that I can almost guarantee you will be hooked.

 

[progrocks]

I have watched it three times through, once as it aired, then in marathon format from DVD, and recently weekly all the way through on directv. Just as good as the first time through. Watching it back in 2002 I was not influenced by any hype, I watched it because it was on HBO and that is what you did back then. About 6 episodes in I was like "holy crap, this is better than the sopranos" and I have been preaching the show ever since.

Only other shows I have watched over like that is arrested development, coupling (which I must have done about 7 times now), sports night, and the new doctor who.

Also, I have seen every episode of David Simon Tv and I love Homicide LOTS, thought that The Corner was okay, and am really enjoying treme so far. The man is great.

 

[Deadrody]

Count me in with the "greatest show of all time" crew.

Honestly, since watching the entire series, I haven't watched much TV. Everything else I tried paled in comparison and disappointed me (Weeds, Mad Men, Dexter). I loved everything about The Wire.

You come at the king, you best not miss.... - Omar

I feel 'ya

I do think some of the stuff on FX and AMC is starting to challenge HBO and Showtime for quality. Though I can't think of anything that comes close to the way The Wire told its story.