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OT - Giants HC search (Update: Hiring Ben McAdoo)

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intlzncster said:
Yeah, that likes a "mutual" resignation. Guys don't just walk away from lucrative position at the top of their profession for sh_ts and giggles. Coughlin "resigned" too, although everybody knows he was being fired.
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He thought he was going to get the Jet job...over played his hand...Bills didn't know he was gonna opt out. It was pretty well reported on last season...
 
intlzncster said:
Yeah, that likes a "mutual" resignation. Guys don't just walk away from lucrative position at the top of their profession for sh_ts and giggles. Coughlin "resigned" too, although everybody knows he was being fired.
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I would not say that, he had a clause that if ownership changed he could walk away, and he did, he did it because he wanted and thought he would get the Jets job. Bad miscalculation, but he will be a HC next season somewhere.
 
Jerry1714 said:
I would not say that, he had a clause that if ownership changed he could walk away, and he did, he did it because he wanted and thought he would get the Jets job. Bad miscalculation, but he will be a HC next season somewhere.
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FDNY99 said:
He thought he was going to get the Jet job...over played his hand...Bills didn't know he was gonna opt out. It was pretty well reported on last season...
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I'll take that as you say, but I've no idea how much spin that is. One thing I do know, is that spin in the NFL is so much more prevalent than any other professional sport. It's practically politics.

That said, how do you guys know the new Bills ownership truly wanted Marrone? I hate to post this guy as a source, as he's a complete rube, but there's this:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/f...arrone-not-well-liked-bills-article-1.2064861
 
intlzncster said:
I'll take that as you say, but I've no idea how much spin that is. One thing I do know, is that spin in the NFL is so much more prevalent than any other professional sport. It's practically politics.

That said, how do you guys know the new Bills ownership truly wanted Marrone? I hate to post this guy as a source, as he's a complete rube, but there's this:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/f...arrone-not-well-liked-bills-article-1.2064861
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I really don't know why he is on the NYG list...as a NYG fan if Mara tries to sell Marrone as the new HC..I will be an ex-NYG fan. Same with McDaniels....if they decided to interview and hire him..they should have kept TC.
 
The more I think about it, between reese and coughlin, there should have been two options IMO.

1. Keep Both
2. Fire Both

By firing coughlin... If Reese screws the pooch on the roster for next yr..he could be fired. Then they'll bring in a new GM, who will want a new HC. If the fired Reese and kept TC, the GM would want a new coach. So I think it should have been both or neither.
 
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KembaStepback said:
By firing coughlin... If Reese screws the pooch on the roster for next yr..he could be fired. Then they'll bring in a new GM, who will want a new HC. If the fired Reese and kept TC, the GM would want a new coach. So I think it should have been both or neither.
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Can't necessarily argue with that. There's nothing wrong with it. But you could keep Coughlin if, when hiring a new GM, you get a guy who actually does want him as coach. Coughlin's proven himself, and that's important, as most other guys they could get have not. Then it might be, fire the coach in a few years, but continue with Reese (read mediocrity).

I think the Giants could do well taking a look at Matt Patricia. He's the real deal. A guy who truly had to work his way up from the bottom. I read a great article on him in December, but Mike Reiss linked it again recently. Some might have interest:

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/patriots/2015/12/how_matt_patricia_engineers_patriots_defense

He's got 'smartest guy in the room', humbleness and people skills. He's coached both sides of the ball at many different positions. I really think he's going to be an impact coach in the future.
 
http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2016/01/the_research_jerry_reese_wanted_it_and_the_giants.html

Draft "hits" from 2007-13 in Rounds 3-7:

(Note: It usually takes three seasons to be able to accurately assess a draft so 2014-15 was not calculated.)

1. Packers – 14
2. Dolphins – 13
T-3. Panthers – 12
T. 28 Giants – 6

Only the Redskins had fewer "hits" than the Giants since Reese took over as general manager.

No fan with a brain can defend Reese's GM abilities or his behavior at the season ending presser. Good for Raanan showing facts to this fool Reese who delusionaly thinks he has done an adequate job. I fear no matter who we hire will be coaching with one hand tied behind his back due to the players Reese will give him
 
intlzncster said:
Perhaps. I don't know the exact details. Just what I've read over the years. I do know that McDaniels pushed hard for him, and Tebow wouldn't have been drafted if McDaniels didn't want him in the first place.

I'm sure they kept Tebow because what else were they going to do with him? No one else seemed to want him much. They spent a 1st rounder on him. Didn't really have any other option. And then he even won a playoff game.

As an aside: here's McDaniel's on learning from his Denver experience:

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/c...-mcdaniels-admits-mistakes-when-broncos-coach
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I'm sure McDaniels did want Tebow, but given what his stature was within the organization and the fact the team kept and started Tebow after says to me that there were other people in the FO that were on that Tebow train.
 
PcketknfNiels said:
I'm sure McDaniels did want Tebow, but given what his stature was within the organization and the fact the team kept and started Tebow after says to me that there were other people in the FO that were on that Tebow train.
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Perhaps; I'm not arguing there isn't. But it is notoriously (read impossible) difficult for a team to eat a first round draft pick after only one season.
 
PcketknfNiels said:
I'm sure McDaniels did want Tebow, but given what his stature was within the organization and the fact the team kept and started Tebow after says to me that there were other people in the FO that were on that Tebow train.
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McDaniels' failures in Denver are well documented, and if I'm an NFL owner, I'd be a little wary of the Belichick coaching tree. I mean, he traded up to get Tebow in the first round. However, with hindsight, there's two things he did that absolutely changed the next decade+ of Broncos football.

1) Chasing Jay Cutler out of town. At the time it was crazy, but the Broncos aren't winning 5 straight AFCW titles if he stays.
2) Befriending Elway and helping to mend the relation between him and the Broncos front office. I wont give him all the credit here, but there's articles out there in the 2010 time frame documenting this.
 
intlzncster said:
Perhaps; I'm not arguing there isn't. But it is notoriously (read impossible) difficult for a team to eat a first round draft pick after only one season.
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Not saying they should have outright cut or traded him after 1 season, but I don't think he ever would have seen the field if Josh were his only fan in the org.

Mots010 said:
McDaniels' failures in Denver are well documented, and if I'm an NFL owner, I'd be a little wary of the Belichick coaching tree. I mean, he traded up to get Tebow in the first round. However, with hindsight, there's two things he did that absolutely changed the next decade+ of Broncos football.

1) Chasing Jay Cutler out of town. At the time it was crazy, but the Broncos aren't winning 5 straight AFCW titles if he stays.
2) Befriending Elway and helping to mend the relation between him and the Broncos front office. I wont give him all the credit here, but there's articles out there in the 2010 time frame documenting this.
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I can't even begrudge McDaniels too much for not getting along with Cu(n)tler and a young Brandon Marshall. And does McDaniels get as much credit for the DT88 pick as he gets blamed for Tebow?
 
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Jerry1714 said:
http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2016/01/the_research_jerry_reese_wanted_it_and_the_giants.html

Draft "hits" from 2007-13 in Rounds 3-7:

(Note: It usually takes three seasons to be able to accurately assess a draft so 2014-15 was not calculated.)

1. Packers – 14
2. Dolphins – 13
T-3. Panthers – 12
T. 28 Giants – 6

Only the Redskins had fewer "hits" than the Giants since Reese took over as general manager.

No fan with a brain can defend Reese's GM abilities or his behavior at the season ending presser. Good for Raanan showing facts to this fool Reese who delusionaly thinks he has done an adequate job. I fear no matter who we hire will be coaching with one hand tied behind his back due to the players Reese will give him
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Jerry we know 1 NYG fan on this board who tried over in the football forum...
 
Mots010 said:
McDaniels' failures in Denver are well documented, and if I'm an NFL owner, I'd be a little wary of the Belichick coaching tree. I mean, he traded up to get Tebow in the first round. However, with hindsight, there's two things he did that absolutely changed the next decade+ of Broncos football.

1) Chasing Jay Cutler out of town. At the time it was crazy, but the Broncos aren't winning 5 straight AFCW titles if he stays.
2) Befriending Elway and helping to mend the relation between him and the Broncos front office. I wont give him all the credit here, but there's articles out there in the 2010 time frame documenting this.
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Every coach isn't going to succeed, that's just the way it is, but much of that failure/success is due to not having a quarterback. If you don't have a quarterback, you aren't going to succeed in the NFL.

Right now, Bill Obrien is looking very good down in Houston. And he's playing with a good backup QB at the helm. So, I don't think it's a particular indictment on the totality of the BB coaching tree. Some guys are just great coordinators, and just aren't cut out to be HCs. That's life. For instance, Romeo Crennel just doesn't have the personality to be an HC. That wasn't going to work. And Charlie Weiss is nuts. :D

I would like to see the success of Patricia and McDaniels at his next gig, before I make a grand assessment. I think Patricia has a chance to be a fantastic HC, he just needs the right opportunity. Don't go somewhere without a least an above average QB.
 
PcketknfNiels said:
Not saying they should have outright cut or traded him after 1 season, but I don't think he ever would have seen the field if Josh were his only fan in the org.



I can't even begrudge McDaniels too much for not getting along with Cu(n)tler and a young Brandon Marshall. And does McDaniels get as much credit for the DT88 pick as he gets blamed for Tebow?
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A bunch of things McDaniels/Elway did set the Broncos up for success in the following years. All it took was getting a quality QB. It always comes down to QB.
 
intlzncster said:
Every coach isn't going to succeed, that's just the way it is, but much of that failure/success is due to not having a quarterback. If you don't have a quarterback, you aren't going to succeed in the NFL.

Right now, Bill Obrien is looking very good down in Houston. And he's playing with a good backup QB at the helm. So, I don't think it's a particular indictment on the totality of the BB coaching tree. Some guys are just great coordinators, and just aren't cut out to be HCs. That's life. For instance, Romeo Crennel just doesn't have the personality to be an HC. That wasn't going to work. And Charlie Weiss is nuts. :D

I would like to see the success of Patricia and McDaniels at his next gig, before I make a grand assessment. I think Patricia has a chance to be a fantastic HC, he just needs the right opportunity. Don't go somewhere without a least an above average QB.
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Going to PSU under the circumstances he had there helped Bill O'Brien a lot imho. You have to admit that if John Mara and Jerry Reese try to sell McDaniels or as I mentioned before Marrone to the fan base...it will go over like a fart in church. Right now if you ask me as a NYG fan...either hire McAdoo or if going outside organization hire Lovie Smith (who got screwed over inTampa). Other than that..they should have just kept TC.
 
Mots010 said:
However, with hindsight, there's two things he did that absolutely changed the next decade+ of Broncos football.

1) Chasing Jay Cutler out of town. At the time it was crazy, but the Broncos aren't winning 5 straight AFCW titles if he stays.
2) Befriending Elway and helping to mend the relation between him and the Broncos front office. I wont give him all the credit here, but there's articles out there in the 2010 time frame documenting this.
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As I mentioned before, running Cutler out was the right move, but the way he did it was poor. It reeked backstabbing, and didn't engender any trust among the remaining guys on the team. He could have either been really upfront, or simply noncomittal behind the scenes before leveling with the guy. In turn, he would have had the respect/trust of the players, and might have more in return for Cutler.

Same sort of deal happened with Marshall, but to a lesser extent. Marshall was self-admittedly a loose cannon early in his career, untreated for a mental illness. Doing great now, which is nice to see.
 
FDNY99 said:
Going to PSU under the circumstances he had there helped Bill O'Brien a lot imho. You have to admit that if John Mara and Jerry Reese try to sell McDaniels or as I mentioned before Marrone to the fan base...it will go over like a fart in church. Right now if you ask me as a NYG fan...either hire McAdoo or if going outside organization hire Lovie Smith (who got screwed over inTampa). Other than that..they should have just kept TC.
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As I think I mentioned previously, I would have kept TC no questions asked (well 1 question). Reese appears to be by far the biggest culprit for the Giants woes. The one question I would have addressed would have benn toreview, and figure out how he could change, his end of game management. Coughlin, even in his old age, has shown a willingness to change to the point where I think he'd be receptive to that kind of criticism.
 
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PcketknfNiels said:
I'm sure McDaniels did want Tebow, but given what his stature was within the organization and the fact the team kept and started Tebow after says to me that there were other people in the FO that were on that Tebow train.
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Well hindsight is 20/20. I mean, yes, Tebow was an epic flop...but I highly doubt it was McDaniels making the call. Im sure he had input, but lets be serious. Tebow sold jerseys, put butts in seats, and certainly had the media's attention. I don't remember what they gave up to get Tebow, but I don't remember it being a lot. If it was a lot, then I take that statement back. lol
 
intlzncster said:
A bunch of things McDaniels/Elway did set the Broncos up for success in the following years. All it took was getting a quality QB. It always comes down to QB.
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Well yeah, that's why McDaniels was smart to get rid of Cutler (especially for what they got in return), and it's also why I don't believe in the Chiefs in that other thread.

KembaStepback said:
Well hindsight is 20/20. I mean, yes, Tebow was an epic flop...but I highly doubt it was McDaniels making the call. Im sure he had input, but lets be serious. Tebow sold jerseys, put butts in seats, and certainly had the media's attention. I don't remember what they gave up to get Tebow, but I don't remember it being a lot. If it was a lot, then I take that statement back. lol
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I'm in the same boat with you. I can't imagine McDaniels having the pull to single handedly make that draft decision as a 30-something year old coach with only a couple years experience. I'm sure McDaniels was probably in favor, or at least not vehemently opposed, I just don't think he was the driving factor. I don't even fault the collective FO for taking that chance, McDaniels knew Cutler wasn't the guy, so they tried to find a real franchise QB.
 
KembaStepback said:
Well hindsight is 20/20. I mean, yes, Tebow was an epic flop...but I highly doubt it was McDaniels making the call. Im sure he had input, but lets be serious. Tebow sold jerseys, put butts in seats, and certainly had the media's attention.
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PcketknfNiels said:
I'm in the same boat with you. I can't imagine McDaniels having the pull to single handedly make that draft decision as a 30-something year old coach with only a couple years experience.
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Note: Josh McDaniels had full control of the Broncos roster, controversial though that was at the time. Clayton mentions it here. As one of the more sought after candidates at the time, he had plenty of HC possibilities as leverage. He comes from the Belichick/Parcells shop-for-your-groceries school. That was part of the deal.

I don't see McDaniels taking the job in the first place if he didn't have significant input on who the future QB would be, never mind the rest of the personnel. This is a guy who'd been both a quarterbacks coach and offensive coordinator for one of the greatest QBs of all time, and his backup one year.

And you can't say he was responsible for running Cutler out of town, in the same breath that you say he wasn't responsible for the Tebow pick.

BTW, the Broncos traded three picks to get the 25th overall pick (Tebow): a second-round (43rd pick), a third-round (7oth pick) and a fourth-round draft pick (114th pick).[/QUOTE]
 
intlzncster said:
Note: Josh McDaniels had full control of the Broncos roster, controversial though that was at the time. Clayton mentions it here. As one of the more sought after candidates at the time, he had plenty of HC possibilities as leverage. He comes from the Belichick/Parcells shop-for-your-groceries school. That was part of the deal.

I don't see McDaniels taking the job in the first place if he didn't have significant input on who the future QB would be, never mind the rest of the personnel. This is a guy who'd been both a quarterbacks coach and offensive coordinator for one of the greatest QBs of all time, and his backup one year.

And you can't say he was responsible for running Cutler out of town, in the same breath that you say he wasn't responsible for the Tebow pick.

BTW, the Broncos traded three picks to get the 25th overall pick (Tebow): a second-round (43rd pick), a third-round (7oth pick) and a fourth-round draft pick (114th pick).
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Most of your post is extremely presumptive, but I will say that I did claim that if McDaniels gets the blame for the Tebow pick, then he also should get more credit for dumping Cutler for that massive haul of picks and for drafting DT88 (and also Eric Decker).
 
PcketknfNiels said:
Most of your post is extremely presumptive, but I will say that I did claim that if McDaniels gets the blame for the Tebow pick, then he also should get more credit for dumping Cutler for that massive haul of picks and for drafting DT88 (and also Eric Decker).
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And yet all of your arguments to the contrary were presumptive as well. But I at least provided sourcing from John Clayton, someone who is in the know far more than either you or I. I doubt he was making it up when he said:

The lesson learned in the Josh McDaniels fiasco in Denver is not to surrender too much personnel power to a coach -- particularly a young one.

Mike Shanahan lost his job as the Broncos' head coach because of his personnel decisions, but he put together one of his best core groups on offense before owner Pat Bowlen fired him. McDaniels was so headstrong that he got rid of Jay Cutler, Brandon Marshall and Tony Scheffler; McDaniels also ripped apart the offensive line and put together a 3-4 defense that has struggled.

Will the lesson change the temptation for an owner to hand over his franchise to one boss with a whistle?
 
intlzncster said:
And yet all of your arguments to the contrary were presumptive as well. But I at least provided sourcing from John Clayton, someone who is in the know far more than either you or I. I doubt he was making it up when he said:

The lesson learned in the Josh McDaniels fiasco in Denver is not to surrender too much personnel power to a coach -- particularly a young one.

Mike Shanahan lost his job as the Broncos' head coach because of his personnel decisions, but he put together one of his best core groups on offense before owner Pat Bowlen fired him. McDaniels was so headstrong that he got rid of Jay Cutler, Brandon Marshall and Tony Scheffler; McDaniels also ripped apart the offensive line and put together a 3-4 defense that has struggled.

Will the lesson change the temptation for an owner to hand over his franchise to one boss with a whistle?
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I read the article, but that's not exactly a declarative statement to verify that McDaniels had carte blanche to do as he pleased. He's not specifically saying to what extent Josh had a say in player personnel decisions.
 
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I hate having to relive that "era" in Bronco history. Appreciate the reminder.
 
I will be very surprised if the Giants don't hire McAdoo.

One thing the Giants hold dear is their 'family' approach and there have only been a few head coach hires since Steve Owen took over in 1930 that did not have some prior time as a Giant's employee; Bill Arnsbarger (who came highly recommended by Don Shula, fit the bill as a football family oriented coach and was the hottest commodity on the market when hired), Dan Reeves (George Young's first hire who had a relationship with Young in Baltimore, before Young left Baltimore for Miami) and Dan Reeves (who was hired after the Giants stuck out with Coughlin and was highly recommended by Frank Gifford, who was not only a member of the Giants' family but also viewed by Wellington Mara as a son).

Another is that from George Young's time forward, the team (with two exceptions) always adhered to the philosophy that a first time head coach would be a better fit. The exceptions were the above stated Reeves and Coughlin, who Wellington Mara a) saw as the one who got away and b) had an old school, disciplinarian approach that WM believed the team was in desperate need of.

While it is now Wellington's kid who runs the show and the guy who replaced the guy who replaced Young as GM, the teams approach and philosophy really has not changed at all.
 
8893 said:
Every time this thought entered my mind I dismissed because it was too disturbing to think about; it would kill me if this happened--like watching Calhoun go to BCU:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/14533972/philadelphia-eagles-expected-interview-tom-coughlin
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Look at it this way...as bad as this would be..think of how bad it blows up on Mara and that idiot Reese if they try to sell that moron Marrone as Coughlin's successor! Mara will have an empty stadium and Reese gets fired after that control freak loser can't get team into playoffs and then Mara is at it again next year hiring another GM..who will want to hire a new coach. Marrone had thin skin in Buffalo with the media...no way he survives NYC.
 
8893 said:
Every time this thought entered my mind I dismissed because it was too disturbing to think about; it would kill me if this happened--like watching Calhoun go to BCU:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/14533972/philadelphia-eagles-expected-interview-tom-coughlin
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It would be a great hire for the Eagles. Coughlin's a toned down (now) version of Kelly disciplinary-wise. So the players would easily adjust. And he has so much knowledge about the Giants that it would hurt them during the season.

BBs assistants always seem to give him fits. I maintain that the greatest weapon against BB is familiarity. If you are used to him doing what he does and have knowledge of it, it's a huge step up over the average coach.
 
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