OT - Drew Brees

[jleves]

Just watched him eclipse Favre for second and Manning for most yards in the regular season (He's still forth if you include playoffs). He'll be the first to 72,000 in the regular season tonight. Made me start thinking of great QBs and where do you put him? One hurricane fueled Superbowl and then just a lot of completions and yards. It's so hard to rank them, but I can't figure out if he is top 5, top 10 or outside.

There are so many ways to rank the greatest (Superbowls, Touchdowns, Yards, Years, MVPs, etc.) it's probably impossible to make any list that stands up well. I always like to think if I was starting a team today and could take any QB in their first full time year and keep them for at least a decade, who would I choose.

Hard not to take Brady 1 but after that, there have been so many greats: Montana, Favre, Manning, Marino, Roethlisberger, Elway, Tarkenton, Unitas, Rodgers, Naimeth, Unitas, Young, Staubach, and the lesser greats (in my mind), Other Manning, Rivers, Fouts, Kelley, Everett, Aikman, Jugensen, Warner and I'm sure I missed some that belong on the list.

Where do you think Brees stands on that kind of list?

 

[whaler11]

10th or so. The last 5-7 years are essentially a different sport than the prior 80 years.

The average QB rating this year is two points higher than Montana’s career rating....

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Top 15 definitely. Maybe top 10. That ain't bad.

 

[jleves]

On another note, that almost seemed scripted. Bring the family to the sidelines, the very next throw to a totally wide open receiver down field, guy coming over the top takes a bad angle and only half heatedly makes a tackle attempt.

I'm not big on conspiracy theory things, but that looked a little off to me.

 

[superjohn]

Rodgers is the best QB I've ever seen. Brees is maybe the most underrated player ever, he's almost never talked about outside of this week. Before this week I'm sure most people had no clue Brees was about to become the all-time leading passer. Another one that is shocking to me, Frank Gore is still playing and is the 4th leading rusher ever.

 

[WisePig]

Top 15... Mt Rushmore of QBs would have to include Brady, Montana, Bradshaw and Manning or Elway.
Second five putting him out of the top 10 would include Staubach, Roethlisberger, Aikman, Favre and Griese. You have to make Super Bowls and win some to be considered one of the greatest.

 

[LIuconn]

What was with the cheesy paper certificate?

 

[superjohn]

Top 15... Mt Rushmore of QBs would have to include Brady, Montana, Bradshaw and Manning or Elway.
Second five putting him out of the top 10 would include Staubach, Roethlisberger, Aikman, Favre and Griese. You have to make Super Bowls and win some to be considered one of the greatest.

lol, that's a hilarious list.

 

[Scoe]

Bree's just completed a pass to himself.

 

[Hans Sprungfeld]

Another one that is shocking to me, Frank Gore is still playing and is the 4th leading rusher ever.

First time I've ever heard the name. When the Giants suck, football season doesn't begin until late December.

 

[Chin Diesel]

I'd put him somewhere between 6-10.

 

[whaler11]

First time I've ever heard the name. When the Giants suck, football season doesn't begin until late December.

Do you pay attention when the Giants are good? He was the Niners RB when the Giants beat them in the NFC Championship game and also was their leading rusher when they went to the SB.

The Pro Bowl is after the Giants elimination? He played in 5 of those and played a role on national champion CFB team as a true freshman.

Where did this guy come from?

 

[HuskyHawk]

Easy top 5 for me. Superbowls are about teams and much of his career he didn’t have one. It’s a bad metric to rank QBs

 

[Hans Sprungfeld]

Do you pay attention when the Giants are good?

Apparently not enough. Too many Sundays outdoors or with friends & family.

But I do know who Al Gore, Allen Lowe, and Frank Lowe are. And it remains fun to baffle you.

Then again, I can't figure out how to upload a photo I just took of Super Bowl XXI glasses that might might nice for sharing a drink and discussing these matters.

 

[Deepster]

On another note, that almost seemed scripted. Bring the family to the sidelines, the very next throw to a totally wide open receiver down field, guy coming over the top takes a bad angle and only half heatedly makes a tackle attempt.

I'm not big on conspiracy theory things, but that looked a little off to me.

Is this a serious post?

 

[whaler11]

Apparently not enough. Too many Sundays outdoors or with friends & family.

But I do know who Al Gore, Allen Lowe, and Frank Lowe are. And it remains fun to baffle you.

Then again, I can't figure out how to upload a photo I just took of Super Bowl XXI glasses that might might nice for sharing a drink and discussing these matters.

If not for Al Gore we couldn’t have this conversation.

 

[Hans Sprungfeld]

If not for Al Gore we couldn’t have this conversation.

How about Frank Grimes? It only takes curiosity & willingness to build bridges.

 

[HuskyHawk]

What was with the cheesy paper certificate?

My guess is that it was for the Hall of Fame, to certify the football Brees gave them as the one he threw.

 

[intlzncster]

Easy top 5 for me. Superbowls are about teams and much of his career he didn’t have one. It’s a bad metric to rank QBs

Depends. You see what they do in the playoffs and big moments matters. Teams be damned. Take for instance the ol' Brady vs Manning debate. If you look at their playoff performances, Brady's numbers are much better than Manning's. And those wins matter on top. Manning's numbers are fairly pedestrian in the post season.

Great QBs can carry bad teams, they make defenses look a lot better than they are, given that they keep their own defense off the field, and are usually playing from in front score-wise. They also make lesser players look like studs.

 

[the Q]

Rodgers is the best QB I've ever seen. Brees is maybe the most underrated player ever, he's almost never talked about outside of this week. Before this week I'm sure most people had no clue Brees was about to become the all-time leading passer. Another one that is shocking to me, Frank Gore is still playing and is the 4th leading rusher ever.

Bree’s will always be overrated because people still equate team success with individual greatness when no one plays less of the game (1/3 for QBs)

 

[HuskyHawk]

Bree’s will always be overrated because people still equate team success with individual greatness when no one plays less of the game (1/3 for QBs)

Your point seems reversed. In terms of individual greatness, he's arguably the best of all time. Not worse than 2nd. It's the lack of team success that holds him back.

 

[intlzncster]

Rodgers is the best QB I've ever seen. Brees is maybe the most underrated player ever, he's almost never talked about outside of this week. Before this week I'm sure most people had no clue Brees was about to become the all-time leading passer. Another one that is shocking to me, Frank Gore is still playing and is the 4th leading rusher ever.

You've always had a mildly irrational hard on for Rodgers though, and the blind spots that go with that. Probably the best arm I've ever seen in terms of being able to make all the throws (especially on the run). On top of that, he can really scramble. Obviously, very difficult to play against and very good at leading his team from behind.

Where he struggles is staying in the pocket.

Unless it's a designed bootleg, every time you scramble outside the pocket, that's a broken play. Linemen don't know who to block once you move off your spot. Receivers are ad libbing. It's essentially a broken play. Rodgers has the skill to make a series of broken plays work, but it eventually bites you in the arse. You've got to stay in the pocket, shifting to where the soft spot opens up.

He holds on to the ball much longer than he should on given plays, because his skill allows him to make those plays more often than not. Unfortunately, it's not good football. It caused him to fumble a few times just last week, and contributed to losing the game (turnovers being one of the best metrics to determine wins). And the root cause of why he's gotten hurt. Couple of separated shoulders, concussions earlier in his career etc. Scrambling so much also indicates he's also not reading the defense either pre/post snap fast or well enough.

Rodgers has even mentioned he needs to get better at pocket presence in order to extend his career, mentioning Brady as an example. Heck, Elway only managed to break through on Superbowls when he learned how to stay in the pocket towards the end of his career (by necessity).

I'm also not sure how great of a leader he is. Manning/Brady et al...guys would die for them. Rodgers never has inspired that kind of religious commitment among his guys. Hell, his own family doesn't even like him.

Bear in mind I'm talking about a Top 5 QB here, not poo pooing the guy overall in the slightest. He's absolutely awesome, and probably the most fun QB to watch in the game. But everybody has weaknesses.

I can feel your blood pressure rising as you read this haha

 

[intlzncster]

Bree’s will always be overrated because people still equate team success with individual greatness when no one plays less of the game (1/3 for QBs)

And yet, no single person has a greater impact on his team, in all phases. The QB touches the ball 100% of the time, and the good ones are quite literally the coach on the field. The team generally lives and dies with QB play. If it were just a team thing, then all you'd need was an average QB, the number of average QBs who win Superbowls is few and far between..

They impact every facet of the game:

Offense: touching the ball 100% of the time, and the good ones are quite literally the coach on the field. The good ones make average players better across the board.

Defense: A good QB keeps their offense on the field, and their defense well rested. And they often allow the defense to play ahead scoreboard wise, making things easier for the D in all phases.

Special teams: Good QBs, deliver better field position, and less risky opportunities for STs.

And the best QBs inspire. People give short shrift to intangibles, but at positions like QB it's very meaningful when it comes to on the field and off season work.

 

[superjohn]

You've always had a mildly irrational hard on for Rodgers though, and the blind spots that go with that. Probably the best arm I've ever seen in terms of being able to make all the throws (especially on the run). On top of that, he can really scramble.

Where he struggles is staying in the pocket.

Unless it's a designed bootleg, every time you scramble outside the pocket, that's a broken play. Linemen don't know who to block once you move off your spot. Receivers are ad libbing. It's essentially a broken play. Rodgers has the skill to make a series of broken plays work, but it eventually bites you in the arse. You've got to stay in the pocket, shifting to where the soft spot opens up.

He holds on to the ball much longer than he should on given plays, because his skill allows him to make those plays more often than not. Unfortunately, it's not good football. It caused him to fumble a few times just last week, and contributed to losing the game (turnovers being one of the best metrics to determine wins). And the root cause of why he's gotten hurt. Couple of separated shoulders, concussions earlier in his career etc. Scrambling so much also indicates he's also not reading the defense either pre/post snap fast or well enough.

Rodgers has even mentioned he needs to get better at pocket presence in order to extend his career, mentioning Brady as an example. Heck, Elway only managed to break through on Superbowls when he learned how to stay in the pocket towards the end of his career (by necessity).

I'm also not sure how great of a leader he is. Manning/Brady et al...guys would die for them. Rodgers never has inspired that kind of religious commitment among his guys. Hell, his own family doesn't even like him.

Bear in mind I'm talking about a Top 5 QB here, not poo pooing the guy overall in the slightest. He's absolutely awesome, and probably the most fun QB to watch in the game. But everybody has weaknesses.

I can feel your blood pressure rising as you read this haha

Rodgers has nothing, he's always had nothing around him. The defense is always terrible, McCarthy is useless and should have been fired a couple of years ago, and Jordy Nelson (yes Jordy freakin' Nelson) is the best target he ever had. He still got one but injuries at the worst time have kept him from a chance at more. Football is a team game and Brady has been blessed with great teams and the best coach of all time. At least Brady knows what's up.

Report: Brady says Aaron Rodgers is 'much more talented than me'

 

[intlzncster]

Rodgers has nothing, he's always had nothing around him. The defense is always terrible, McCarthy is useless and should have been fired a couple of years ago, and Jordy Nelson (yes Jordy freakin' Nelson) is the best target he ever had. He still got one but injuries at the worst time have kept him from a chance at more. Football is a team game and Brady has been blessed with great teams and the best coach of all time.

Brady threw to hot garbage the first half of his career, and still killed it. Julian 'freakin' Edelman, all 5'8 or 5'9 of him (i've stood next to the guy), was Brady's best receiver his last Superbowl (Gronk was hurt). And Jordie Nelson is a better receiver than Edelman. Also, Greg Jennings might very well have been a Top 10 receiver in the league during his time.

Patriots players go to other teams and rarely ever thrive. I can only think of 1 year of Wes Welker, and he was catching balls from another QB in the GOAT conversation.

Yes, Brady's played with 2 HOFs in his career (Moss and Gronk), but let's not pretend he's throwing to studs all the time:

• Moss for only two years (2007&2009); Brady was out all 2008, and Moss forced his way out in 2010. As a result, Brady put up godlike numbers in 2007.
• And Gronk has been hurt or hobbled half his career. He was out for the year the last time they won a Superbowl. And he was merely a decoy in the 2012 one (could barely walk).
• Not really apropos of anything, but an interesting stat I saw: Gronk and Edelman rarely play together (2 of these games Brady didn't even play due to suspension)
  • 2015: Patriots Games Played: 18. Games with both players: 11
  • 2016: Patriots Games Played: 19. Games with both players: 8
  • 2017: Patriots Games Played: 19. Games with both players: 0
  • 2018: Patriots Games Played: 4. Games with both players: 0

And Brady has dragged plenty of mediocre teams late into the playoffs. They were one play away from going to the Superbowl in 2006 (iirc) against Manning and the Colts. They would have beat the lowly bears as well and had another ring. Brady's top target? Reche Caldwell. Reche freakin' Caldwel. Rodgers never had that poor of a cast.

I guess it comes down to preference. I prefer a QB who actually runs the offense as it's supposed to be run. As you game planned all week, and only ad libs when absolutely necessary. I prefer a guy who reads the defense quickly and makes the best decisions possible. I think over the long haul, it leads to more consistent winning. I prefer consistent execution over spectacular get out of your seat plays.

I concede that BB over Montgomery is a huge advantage. But I laugh when people say Brady wins solely because of BB. I've yet to see BB make spectacular throw after spectacular throw and miraculous comeback after miraculous comeback. It's predominantly Brady who's the architect of those things; Arguably the two greatest comebacks in Superbowl history. Nothing compares to 2016, and coming back down 2 TDs in the 4th against one of the best D's in football was unreal.

At least Brady knows what's up.
Report: Brady says Aaron Rodgers is 'much more talented than me'

Of course Brady would say that. Because he's a great guy and always magnanimous. Rodgers isn't. He's the type of guy to trash his own team: I remember when he railed on Packers' young wide receivers for "piss-poor" (his words) performances.

And I'd agree actually with Brady here actually, Rodgers has more natural talent, but I think Brady is a better overall QB. Being a great QB is about much, much more than having great talent.