OT: Coaching Help 2.0

[Hey Adrien!]

I coach 7th/8th grade boys basketball at my school where we practice, at best, twice a week sharing a gym with the girls team. All of our games also fall on the days that we might have practice, same with the girls, so if the girls have a home game, then we don't have practice, and we obviously don't practice on game days. We have no try-outs and sports are mandatory at my small school (unless kids leave early to do a sport outside of the school)_, so my group of 16 students varies from one 7th grader who plays outside of school, to the other 15 who only play basketball at school with varying degrees of athleticism/knowledge of the game.

Since our return from winter break, I've we've played five games (lost all five) and have had just three practices. Many of the teams we play have try-outs, practice 4-5x a week and are vastly more skilled, organized and nuanced then my team, naturally.

My AD, who is an excellent soccer coach, thinks that a big reason my team is having trouble is because I don't have any set plays on offense, but instead I told him it makes more sense to focus on various offensive strategies like spacing, some motion aspects, ball-fake, cutting, screens, etc, because...we've had three practices since December 19th!! Honestly, my kids prefer to plays, and share that they'd rather learn more about the game and they think plays are just automated movements that bores them. That being said, I have a great group of kids, but I don't have the standalone talent to do much on offense (we average ~25 ppg as a team in 32 minute games). Eleven kids have scored, but no one averages more than 5 ppg.

Long story short, do you side with the AD (run plays) or me (with such little practice, focus on offensive elements outside of plays)?

 

[husky429]

Your athletic director is an idiot. Set plays don't win at the middle school level. Fundamentals do. Honestly, they aren't going to win much at ANY level if you've had 3 practices and 5 games in two months without a freakish athlete or 2 on your team. That means they're only touching a basketball, what, once a week on average? That's absurd. You will simply never win with that kind of schedule unless

Tell him you need practice or games 5 days a week if he wants the program to improve. My one year of middle school we had practice or games 6 days a week. Practices were 2 hours in a full gym. That's how competitive basketball teams work. If he wants to have a rec team, continue to have the kids play or practice 1x per week. He's being moronic. Research shows you need 3-4 practices per game if you want to maximize improvement.

Please feel free to copy and paste this response in an email to him DM me for my extension at work if he wants an AD to AD chat.

It's nice to have a couplefew plays at that level so kids can start to learn how to run plays for high school. But the CONCEPTS are so much more important.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Yeah, we practiced 5x/week (if we didn’t have a game) in middle school. It’s all about on court time. You win with talent and knowledge at that age, not set plays. Kids that age can’t consistently run offensive sets.

We had a few plays back then but it was mostly pass the ball and move and take an open shot or get the ball to the kid who could make a play. I’d say incorporate some weave to get the defense moving and confused, have the players fake the handoff sometimes. Also try to mix in feed to the high post then have guys cut backdoor. That’s how we used to get easy buckets if we REALLY needed.

 

[uconnfan68]

Your athletic director is an idiot. Set plays don't win at the middle school level. Fundamentals do. Honestly, they aren't going to win much at ANY level if you've had 3 practices and 5 games in two months without a freakish athlete or 2 on your team. That means they're only touching a basketball, what, once a week on average? That's absurd. You will simply never win with that kind of schedule unless

Tell him you need practice or games 5 days a week if he wants the program to improve. My one year of middle school we had practice or games 6 days a week. Practices were 2 hours in a full gym. That's how competitive basketball teams work. If he wants to have a rec team, continue to have the kids play or practice 1x per week. He's being moronic. Research shows you need 3-4 practices per game if you want to maximize improvement.

Please feel free to copy and paste this response in an email to him DM me for my extension at work if he wants an AD to AD chat.

It's nice to have a couplefew plays at that level so kids can start to learn how to run plays for high school. But the CONCEPTS are so much more important.

Ditto… but you should have out-of-bounds plays. ;^)

 

[StllH8L8ner]

Near impossible to run plays without practicing them. Has the AD ever played a sport beyond Madden Football on his PlayStation? Gun to my head, I’d say focus on setting picks away from the ball to get each other open for shots, but you’re not set up for much success in the format you’re describing.

I’m a big fan of Malcolm Gladwell and this excerpt was interesting in David & Goliath. Kinda long but somewhat apropos.

A quote from David and Goliath

Chapter One Vivek Ranadivé “IT WAS REALLY RANDOM. I MEAN, MY FATHER HAD NEVER PLAYED BASKETBALL BEFORE.” 1. When Vivek Ranadivé decided to coach his daug...

www.goodreads.com

 

[husky429]

Ditto… but you should have out-of-bounds plays. ;^)

Honestly, with that little practice? A BOB or SLOB shouldn't even be a concern. Just show the kids to stack and wing it.

 

[Jaydumo20]

Your athletic director is an idiot. Set plays don't win at the middle school level. Fundamentals do. Honestly, they aren't going to win much at ANY level if you've had 3 practices and 5 games in two months without a freakish athlete or 2 on your team. That means they're only touching a basketball, what, once a week on average? That's absurd. You will simply never win with that kind of schedule unless

Tell him you need practice or games 5 days a week if he wants the program to improve. My one year of middle school we had practice or games 6 days a week. Practices were 2 hours in a full gym. That's how competitive basketball teams work. If he wants to have a rec team, continue to have the kids play or practice 1x per week. He's being moronic. Research shows you need 3-4 practices per game if you want to maximize improvement.

Please feel free to copy and paste this response in an email to him DM me for my extension at work if he wants an AD to AD chat.

It's nice to have a couplefew plays at that level so kids can start to learn how to run plays for high school. But the CONCEPTS are so much more important.

I have no basketball youth coaching experience. This is all fascinating to me.
Before i get to my question:
When I was playing middle school ball in school and rec league, we had plays but we mostly played on instinct after all. I remember bringing the ball up, calling a play, but if I felt like shooting I would just pull up. Most of the time if a kid is open under the basket, which is often because defenses break down so easily, we'd get it to him regardless of whatever play was called.

Am I right in thinking that plays are also useless for this reason?

@uconnfan68 the only play I remember consistently running were the out of bounds plays, to your point

 

[QDOG5]

Here are my suggestions based on your limited practice schedule. You don’t need set plays but you do need to teach your players how to set a legal screen. You don’t need plays but you should drill two out of bounds under your own basket plays. Set one or two solid screens and you can get some easy baskets from those plays. There’s always a couple of kids who won’t shoot. Make sure everyone shoots in practice. Nothing kills a possession like when the ball is in a kids hands and he’s only looking to pass. Also, I would promote shooting threes. Kids are usually not closely guarded at the three and missed threes result in some random bounces that may allow for additional possessions. If you’re practicing once a week I think it’s easiest teaching zone defenses. I taught my daughter’s 5th grade team a 1-3-1 with a trap in the corners that they learned fairly quickly. Good luck. You’re behind the eight ball with your lack of practice time.

 

[husky429]

Also, I would promote shooting threes.

You obviously haven't watched a middle school basketball recently. Kids don't need to be told to shoot 3s. They jack them with abandon... and FAR too often.

 

[husky429]

I have no basketball youth coaching experience. This is all fascinating to me.
Before i get to my question:
When I was playing middle school ball in school and rec league, we had plays but we mostly played on instinct after all. I remember bringing the ball up, calling a play, but if I felt like shooting I would just pull up. Most of the time if a kid is open under the basket, which is often because defenses break down so easily, we'd get it to him regardless of whatever play was called.

Am I right in thinking that plays are also useless for this reason?

@uconnfan68 the only play I remember consistently running were the out of bounds plays, to your point

Even with set plays, much of the game is still instinctual. A good set play gives multiple guys the option to catch, shoot, dribble, etc.

Sounds like coach needed to bench you for pulling too much though, lol.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Interesting, I'm in a similar situation with a 8th grade town travel team that practices 1.5 times per week and b/c its a 10-player team with ongoing injuries/sickness we've had 9 players tops at practices - now mostly 6 or 7 making it very difficult to run an offense. Season started in December, we have a 10 day break right now then 3 games before playoffs.

I do have 3-4 out-of-bounds plays, yet with limited practices (gym time more scarce this year) and some new players they are at about 60% in terms of executing without someone doing the wrong thing and blowing it up. Half court Offense plays out of a set are really challenging as I agree generally that read and react to defense with movement and screening (emphasizing screens off ball as they get older) is better for developing as basketball players. I've tried a flex offense in past yrs with some success, but over course of a game I'd say that resulted in intended movement and a score less than 1/5 times. So now mostly 4-5 out movement with off ball screens and a set 1-3-1 configuration if facing a 2-3 zone.

There seems a tradeoff of either spending 50% of limited practice time on plays and still accepting they work <25% of the time OR spending the time on skills and hoping those organically create more scoring opportunities. This problem is exacerbated when one faces teams that practice ALOT more or are generally better skilled/tough defensively. That is when it'd be great to have some set plays and/or have drilled the team in effectively running a play. I think the answer is spend 10 minutes of practice time on out-of-bounds plays and morph those into another 10 minutes of a very similar play out of a half-court set.

 

[Chin Diesel]

I coach 7th/8th grade boys basketball at my school where we practice, at best, twice a week sharing a gym with the girls team. All of our games also fall on the days that we might have practice, same with the girls, so if the girls have a home game, then we don't have practice, and we obviously don't practice on game days. We have no try-outs and sports are mandatory at my small school (unless kids leave early to do a sport outside of the school)_, so my group of 16 students varies from one 7th grader who plays outside of school, to the other 15 who only play basketball at school with varying degrees of athleticism/knowledge of the game.

Since our return from winter break, I've we've played five games (lost all five) and have had just three practices. Many of the teams we play have try-outs, practice 4-5x a week and are vastly more skilled, organized and nuanced then my team, naturally.

My AD, who is an excellent soccer coach, thinks that a big reason my team is having trouble is because I don't have any set plays on offense, but instead I told him it makes more sense to focus on various offensive strategies like spacing, some motion aspects, ball-fake, cutting, screens, etc, because...we've had three practices since December 19th!! Honestly, my kids prefer to plays, and share that they'd rather learn more about the game and they think plays are just automated movements that bores them. That being said, I have a great group of kids, but I don't have the standalone talent to do much on offense (we average ~25 ppg as a team in 32 minute games). Eleven kids have scored, but no one averages more than 5 ppg.

Long story short, do you side with the AD (run plays) or me (with such little practice, focus on offensive elements outside of plays)?

Long story short is you have an open roster and have little practice time. Oh yeah, it's also middle school. Are the kids safe? Are they learning about basketball? Do they support each other? Are they respectful to you, the officials, the opponent and the game? The more of those questions which get answered "yes", the better you are as a coach.

 

[husky429]

Long story short is you have an open roster and have little practice time. Oh yeah, it's also middle school. Are the kids safe? Are they learning about basketball? Do they support each other? Are they respectful to you, the officials, the opponent and the game? The more of those questions which get answered "yes", the better you are as a coach.

If you can figure out a way to get parents to behave at games even better. I'm a middle school admin and work the games one day a week.

Two folks were trespassed from the building by police this year. I've probably talked to about 8-10 about inappropriate comments made at/toward kids. And one school we're just not scheduling again the parents were THAT poorly behaved. A coach got kicked out of a game by the zebras.

It's insanity out there.

 

[Huskyblood]

I coach 7th/8th grade boys basketball at my school where we practice, at best, twice a week sharing a gym with the girls team. All of our games also fall on the days that we might have practice, same with the girls, so if the girls have a home game, then we don't have practice, and we obviously don't practice on game days. We have no try-outs and sports are mandatory at my small school (unless kids leave early to do a sport outside of the school)_, so my group of 16 students varies from one 7th grader who plays outside of school, to the other 15 who only play basketball at school with varying degrees of athleticism/knowledge of the game.

Since our return from winter break, I've we've played five games (lost all five) and have had just three practices. Many of the teams we play have try-outs, practice 4-5x a week and are vastly more skilled, organized and nuanced then my team, naturally.

My AD, who is an excellent soccer coach, thinks that a big reason my team is having trouble is because I don't have any set plays on offense, but instead I told him it makes more sense to focus on various offensive strategies like spacing, some motion aspects, ball-fake, cutting, screens, etc, because...we've had three practices since December 19th!! Honestly, my kids prefer to plays, and share that they'd rather learn more about the game and they think plays are just automated movements that bores them. That being said, I have a great group of kids, but I don't have the standalone talent to do much on offense (we average ~25 ppg as a team in 32 minute games). Eleven kids have scored, but no one averages more than 5 ppg.

Long story short, do you side with the AD (run plays) or me (with such little practice, focus on offensive elements outside of plays)?

When I was coaching middle school I drilled my kids repeatedly on how to read their defender on a screen (cutter and passer). They needed to either curl or fade and then what to do when they caught it (proper footwork, shooting, etc.). If they can learn to do this they can run practically any offense when they get older. I would run flex a lot because I wanted everyone to be able to make "basketball plays" and be able to play facing and working on what we did (I did not have many 7 footers to put in the post). Gave them a lot of freedom. As they got better I would give them a couple of plays with more options and some wrinkles to flex. We practiced everyday and over Christmas break. Otherwise, as someone said, it becomes rec ball. I did not split the gym with the girls. We practiced early or late.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Too little structure, and the kids just stand around watching, so I always had a few set plays just to get the kids moving. The formation and responses are more important than the actual step by step execution. I have coached boys and girls, and I typically started with my biggest player in the high post, three guards spread along the outside, and my worst player on the baseline looking for dump offs and putbacks. You won't have 3 shooters, so don't play some stupid trendy offense like a 4 out or 5 because most coaches you play aren't going to be stupid enough to guard your worst player in the corner, so he will be standing by himself while the rest of your team plays 4 on 5.

Give and gos to the high post player or give and reverse will get the kids thinking about how to move the ball. Give and kick out is another good play, where the point guard passes to the high post, runs like he is going to get it back, and takes a defender or two out of the paint while the ball gets kicked out to the perimeter. If the defenders don't chase, then he should stop at the weakside block. You can call these plays, and make up fun names for them, but they are really just teaching kids basic action. If a couple of give and goes work, then the defensive center may drop down and your center will be open for a 12 footer. Just basic action.

If you have one shooter, leave him on the 3 point line. Youth coaches and players always overreact to a good shooter and will do something stupid like faceguard him, opening the defense up for everyone else. If you want to mess with the other team, run some off-ball screens for your shooter, and before you know it, there will be 3 defenders above the 3 point line and you will have a 3 on 2 break with the rest of the kids on many possessions. Most of these coaches in a travel league won't know the other teams, so if you make them think you are running plays to get your shooter open, they will run their defense to stop the shooter. I had a shooter on my girls team and if she hit a 3 in the first 4 minutes of the game, it was going to be a good day for my other scorers.

Also, always have a press break. ALWAYS. Get the ball in then to the middle of the court over the first line of the press as fast as possible. Happy to take this offline.

And don't do the old school press break that kept reversing back and forth, because there is a shot clock in high school and the dirty secret of those old school press breaks is that they often take more than 10 seconds to get the ball over half court but before the shot clock the refs didn't usually start counting until 2 or 3 seconds in so teams really had 12 to 13 seconds to get the ball over half court. Now there is a shot clock in high school, and the refs don't need to start counting, they just look at the shot clock. I have talked to a lot of parents this year that talk about how many more 10 second calls there are. The presses haven't gotten better, but the old school press breaks have been exposed.

 

[mussels]

If you can figure out a way to get parents to behave at games even better. I'm a middle school admin and work the games one day a week.

Two folks were trespassed from the building by police this year. I've probably talked to about 8-10 about inappropriate comments made at/toward kids. And one school we're just not scheduling again the parents were THAT poorly behaved. A coach got kicked out of a game by the zebras.

It's insanity out there.

In today,s Post

Irate Washington hockey dad allegedly assaults teen refs in ‘unprovoked’ attack during youth game

“In my over 40 years in hockey, I have never witnessed anything so completely unacceptable.”

nypost.com

 

[BlueandOG]

Your AD needs to trust you to do your job. No one likes to be micromanaged.

 

[husky429]

In today,s Post

Irate Washington hockey dad allegedly assaults teen refs in ‘unprovoked’ attack during youth game

“In my over 40 years in hockey, I have never witnessed anything so completely unacceptable.”

nypost.com

Thankfully, nothing like that here. Had parents call a girl fat, one of them told a girl she played like an n-word (hard-r) and banned him from campus. Tons of yapping at players on the court "ohh you can't go left," "you won't make this free throw" etc. And every time I just say "hey, let's keep comments positive and about our own team please." Very simple and polite.

I'm sure our parents are just as bad elsewhere, but they respect me enough to stfu in our own gym because they know I'm going to bad for their kids every day.

I was at a point 2 weeks ago where I was ready to ban parents from either team watching the games it got so bad but my boss talked me out of it. Instead I'm just getting on a microphone and threatening everyone before the game and making an of myself.

 

[Gutter King]

You have 16 kids, one coach, and inconsistent practice time? That's a recipe for disaster.

With all that working against you, you just have to keep establishing the fundamentals. If you can get a couple of kids to drive the paint to the area in front of the FT line that will open up additional teaching moments.

Teach them the footwork of a good first step asap, then coaching new kids starts to get easier.

I fully encourage running plays in middle school, so long they have enough fundamentals...you want to get the point of leveling up their BBIQ as soon as you can, particularily on offense. Kids need to have simplified intent on offense, or they will just pass/dribble around the 3pt line and never get anywhere.

I show my 7th grade girls tape of Cam, when I'm teaching new skills (floaters, off ball movement, manipulating physics).

Don't be afraid to give your kids homework....tell them to let you know their favorite player and have them watch 10 minutes a day of their highlights. Just keep them engaged with bball, just like you would with any other subject like Math or Reading.

 

[Hey Adrien!]

Honestly, with that little practice? A BOB or SLOB shouldn't even be a concern. Just show the kids to stack and wing it.

That's our one BLOB, lol.

 

[Magic32]

Realistically you have no shot at teaching solid plays with so little practice time, add in the fact that you probably have players missing some practices and teaching becomes even more difficult. Teach spacing and movement and work on rebounding. Hustle goes a long way at that age.

 

[jake14mw]

It's a difficult question. Firstly, I completely agree with you in the general concept of teaching young players skills rather than remembering plays. That's the way I did it. I was lucky enough to have kids with enough talent so that they could still look competent and win some games. But, you do need to accept that people that don't understand basketball think that plays are some kind of magic. That's their reality and you do have to deal with that.

One thing you have to ask yourself is what is the main goal? Is winning more the main goal? To some parents/administrators it is, and it's their sole measure of your coaching ability, even though your coaching skills don't mean nearly as much as the talent of the kids.

When I coached, my main goals were to give the kids a good experience, teach them as much as I could about basketball. If you have 16 kids that have to play a sport, probably 10 of them have no real aspirations of being a great basketball player, and maybe 4 will play in high school past freshman year? One thing I always did think about as I was coaching was that for the few with a basketball future, I wanted to make sure I did everything that I could to make sure they improved as much as possible in their time with me. I took that seriously. I also tried to balance that with the fact that many of them were just there to have fun and be with their friends. There is a lot involved with coaching. I don't think any player gets better by learning how to run "Carolina" or whatever other play you come up with, but it does make you look like a better coach for those who don't know any better.

 

[Milo65]

Here are my suggestions based on your limited practice schedule. You don’t need set plays but you do need to teach your players how to set a legal screen. You don’t need plays but you should drill two out of bounds under your own basket plays. Set one or two solid screens and you can get some easy baskets from those plays. There’s always a couple of kids who won’t shoot. Make sure everyone shoots in practice. Nothing kills a possession like when the ball is in a kids hands and he’s only looking to pass. Also, I would promote shooting threes. Kids are usually not closely guarded at the three and missed threes result in some random bounces that may allow for additional possessions. If you’re practicing once a week I think it’s easiest teaching zone defenses. I taught my daughter’s 5th grade team a 1-3-1 with a trap in the corners that they learned fairly quickly. Good luck. You’re behind the eight ball with your lack of practice time.

This right here. I coached this age level for years with limited practice time. Literally worked on picks, spacing, zone defenses that are not the norm 1-3-1 and 3-2 and junk box and one.

 

[uconnfan68]

Honestly, with that little practice? A BOB or SLOB shouldn't even be a concern. Just show the kids to stack and wing it.

Just a little structure to make sure the right kid gets free to receive the ball.

 

[Edward Sargent]

Fundamentals definitely, especially defense. I shared your same dilemma but coached 7th and 8th grade girls at a Catholic school. over the season we occasionally practiced against the boys which helped develop a nice level of aggression. Our first year came two points shy of winning it all. Best story though when one of our girls stole the ball from the other team the father of the girl who got TOd game out onto the court and grabbed our girl.