OT: Brady's full 4-game suspension upheld by NFL

[Husky25]

What are we teaching the future of America?

YES. I LOVE IT!!! It's the first "What about the children?" of this thread.

How about parents raising their own kids? This is entertainment. What do you tell your Junior when Mel Gibson goes on antisemitic rant, yet watch Lethal Weapon for the 62nd time over the weekend? Tom Cruise acting crazy and jumping over Oprah's couch? Kim Kardashian releasing a coitus tape? Bruce Jenner?

 

[Alydar]

What are we teaching the future of America, when an organization can find an employee guilty, fine them, suspend them, and smear their reputation internationally, and permanently, when they do not have evidence that would stand up in local traffic court? When the same organization appoints itself judge and jury, and appeals court?

Having spent over 10 years as a union steward that attended countless arbitrations, the answer is yes, that is what we should teach the future of America because that is the way labor-management stands right now.

 

[johnnyc]

Latest tonight is Brady was offered a reduction to 2 games if he admitted that the 2 equipment guys violated rules, and a further reduction to 1 game if he admitted interfering with the investigation. He basically said, "I ain't admitting nothin", and will sue in Federal court. NFLPA suit will focus on NFL's procedures in the investigation and ruling being against the NFLPA agreement.

I am reminded of this scene from Band of Brothers.....




Winters = Brady, Sobel = Goodell

In this particular case it did not end well for Lt. Sobel.

 

[Husky25]

I am reminded of this scene from Band of Brothers.....




Winters = Brady, Sobel = Goodell

In this particular case it did not end well for Lt. Sobel.

Sure it did. He got "promoted."

 

[SubbaBub]

I haven't been following this super closely, but I have a thought I'd like feedback on. Is it possible that ball PSI is explainable by science but also possibly a result of tampering? If it's in a gray area, then the circumstantial evidence would seem pretty relevant and in that context the texts from the equipment guys and the fact that Brady destroyed a phone look pretty bad.

Anyhow, it's (mostly) all moot now as the impending court case will be all about the CBA and labor law.

Yes, the pressure gauges used are likely not all that accurate they could be plus minus a half pound, one pound or more. The condition/calibration of said gauges is also unknown. My company has all kinds of equipment that must be calibrated and certified on a regular basis. Some before each use.

Now assuming the gauges are accurate enough and in good shape, it is the NFL. The other flaw before you even get to the science of pressure and temperature, is that there will be variance between gauges. As the report states the officials who took the pressure at halftime could be say with certainty which gauge they used before the game. So, IMO, there is absolutely no real data to make a decision other that the Pats née Brady liked to use lowly inflated footballs.

Now the science. There are two key parts of a FB in this case. The actual bladder and the stem nozzle. All game FB are used/broken in by the offensive team presumably according to preferences of the QB. Being worn, the seals inside the ball can leak so that might explain why one teams FBs differ from another. The relationship between pressure and temperature is a symbiotic one. As temperatures drop the product of the volume of the container and the pressure inside also drop. Since a FB is essentially a constant volume, then it's the pressure that drops.

That said the pressure isn't dropping by 2 psi, but it could very well make a borderline legal ball, illegal or a slightly illegal ball, more obviously illegal.

Wrap that all up are there are plenty of explanations as to why the balls were under inflated.

What is no in doubt is that Brady likes minimally or slightly under inflated footballs. That the teams have always had the ability to tailor their footballs. That only one or two of the Patriots balls were significantly under inflated and that the NFL never made a big deal about it previously.

So, Brady will win if the judge agrees that the NFL was arbitrary in its suspension. The NFL will win if they followed their past procedures in accordance with the collective bargaining agreement.

My guess is they didn't and Brady will win on appeal if it goes that far.

The phone is a red herring. It's his phone and he had no obligation to turn it over to the NFL. Brady had tens of millions of dollars and I'm sure uses his phone for lots of confidential business communications both NFL related and not. No way in heck should he turn it over, and any sane person would destroy it the minute he got a new one.

 

[Alydar]

and any sane person would destroy it the minute he got a new one.

But from the reports I read, Brady didn't destroy the previous phone despite his claim that it was hid usual practice. It's also suspicious that he decided to buy a new phone just days before the hearing to which he had been specifically asked to bring in his phone. Brady's explanation stinks. Badly.

I can be fairly certain that he neither did nor said anything without consulting his attorney and if the best advise he got was to smash the phone then what was on it must have been damning. And yeah, I know that is just speculation.

 

[toadfoot]

Do you know anything of the law? There would not be enough evidence of anything for Brady to use for a defamation suit. In order to sue for defamation there would need to be evidence that the people or persons intentionally made false statements in order to cause injury. How can you prove them intentional made false statements, when you cannot even prove the statements are false to begin with?

Actually, I do.
You can't possibly know that there's insufficient evidence to win a defamation suit. It's likely that all NFL correspondence between Goodell, Vincent, game officials, Colt's management and possibly others will be fair game. It's absurd to claim to know what may or may not be found in those documents.
And false statements have already been made on the record. Among the most prominent was the initial report by Chris Mortensen of ESPN that 11 of 12 Patriot's balls were 2 PSI below league standard. That was demonstrably false and in a defamation lawsuit it's entirely possible that Mortensen would be required to identify his source or face contempt.
So I ask, what if that source was from the league office? Would that not be clear evidence of knowingly making a false statement.
As for injury, you're right, that's more difficult to prove, but just supposing Brady's lawyers have evidence that a potential endorsement deal was cancelled due to these allegations. Is that not evidence of "injury"?

Bottom line is no one, including you, can possibly know at this juncture what information might come out during a defamation lawsuit.

Finally, I said it was my wet dream, not that I expected it would ever happen. Try to read with a little more care.

 

[superjohn]

Good. My wet dream is that after winning in federal court that Brady goes after the league and some media, principally ESPN, with a defamation lawsuit.

If you're having wet dreams about Tom Brady you seriously need to get a life.

 

[UcMiami]

The lawsuit is going to hinge initially for the inflation issue:
1. Is there precedence for the punishment - and the NFL last year established precedence - a memo informing teams it is illegal to heat balls on the sidelines (effecting air pressure by the way) after two teams were caught doing that in MN) - no other punishment assigned to the two teams or to the employees filmed doing it.
2. Is there codified punishment - yes $25K for tampering with equipment.
3. Is the league punishment to Brady within the parameters of the precedence or the codified rules - a clear NO.

On the cooperation/non-coorperation issue:
1. Is there precedence - yes, a 50K fine of Farve for not turning over his phone (specific to a phone text message issue.)
2. Is the league punishment within the parameters of precedence - a clear NO.

On the arbitration issue:
1. Was the arbitration situation unprejudiced?
2 Is there precedence for the commissioner to hand out punishment and hear the appeal?
3. This one cuts both ways - it is clearly in the CBA so precedence is established, but the recent history of the Commissioners arbitration appeals being overturned might be used against the 'unprejudiced' aspect.

Only after those questions get answered (and any one of them in favor of the plaintive) will there be a chance for the process to get into the scientific questions and evidentiary ones. the evidentiary question might come up on the arbitration issue, but that is likely the weakest of the three issues the NFLPA has.

 

[Aluminny69]

Additional information:

Tom Brady Declares Innocence and Explains Cellphone Destruction


Brady Wednesday also disputed accusations that he had destroyed his phone to hide evidence from the N.F.L.:

“I replaced my broken Samsung phone with a new iPhone 6 AFTER my attorneys made it clear to the N.F.L. that my actual phone device would not be subjected to investigation under ANY circumstances. As a member of a union, I was under no obligation to set a new precedent going forward, nor was I made aware at any time during Mr. Wells’s investigation that failing to subject my cellphone to investigation would result in ANY discipline."

“Most importantly, I have never written, texted, emailed to anybody at any time, anything related to football air pressure before this issue was raised at the A.F.C. championship game in January. To suggest that I destroyed a phone to avoid giving the N.F.L. information it requested is completely wrong.”

The league based its decision mainly on Brady’s asking an assistant to destroy a cellphone that he had used the week of the game. Brady was not obliged under league rules to provide the phone.

 

[Wally East]

I'm not impressed by university studies, by AEI rebuttals, by the "independent study" of the NFL and especially not by a clever interpretation of the rulebook. While I'm not naive enough to believe that athletics is above subterfuge, one of the most appealing things about sport to me is that it is a fair competition in which victory goes to the better competitor. For years the public was assailed with tales of the transcendent genius of Tom Brady. How his uncanny ability to know exactly where to throw a pass would put him among the immortals. Then we found out that he was being fed the defensive signals through his helmet before the snap. It was like discovering glasses that allow one to read playing cards. I'm sure there are no prohibitions against X Ray lens in the rules of poker, but most would consider it cheating none the less. That was the point where I considered Brady a cheat, and coniving to deflate his game balls is just further evidence. To me, and to most people who don't root for the Patriots, the preponderance of the evidence is clearly against Brady, no matter how many "experts" are hired by Kraft to rebut.

Whether or not there are other teams employing similar artifice to win is irrelevant.

TL;DR = Facts are hard and dumb and who cares and stuff. Truthiness is on my side.

 

[Aluminny69]

Well, this Brady case is definitely polarizing, based on the response. For me, I would like to see a truly independent ruling on this case. Roger Goodell is definitely NOT that person.

 

[ed4ourgirls]

So, I gather from all of this that we now have a fair idea of which posters are
Pats fans and which are Jets fans. Whoopie.

 

[pinotbear]

So, I gather from all of this that we now have a fair idea of which posters are
Pats fans and which are Jets fans. Whoopie.

I'll cop to being a Pats fan, but, that's not really what gets me fired up.

I hate bullies. I hate unfounded arrogance. I hate gutless smear campaigns. I think the NFL commissioner, and his office, have displayed all 3 of those traits.

 

[toadfoot]

I'll cop to being a Pats fan, but, that's not really what gets me fired up.

I hate bullies. I hate unfounded arrogance. I hate gutless smear campaigns. I think the NFL commissioner, and his office, have displayed all 3 of those traits.

Precisely. It's my opinion, and just my opinion, that Goodell and others in the league office hired Wells with the explicit instructions to produce a report showing that the Patriots tampered with the footballs. Evidence be damned. There's no other conclusion to be reached when the Wells Report specifically disregards Anderson's recollection about which gauge was used prior to the game. Especially when it was the ONLY Anderson statement that was deemed to be "mistaken'.

 

[Kibitzer]

I am reminded of this scene from Band of Brothers.....



Winters = Brady, Sobel = Goodell

As far as I am concerned you can compare Goodell to Sobel, Genghis Kahn, Pontius Pilate or Adolf Eichmann.

But Tom Brady is no Dick Winters.

 

[Icebear]

And the beat goes on ....

 

[Ouremblem]

Precisely. It's my opinion, and just my opinion, that Goodell and others in the league office hired Wells with the explicit instructions to produce a report showing that the Patriots tampered with the footballs. Evidence be damned. There's no other conclusion to be reached when the Wells Report specifically disregards Anderson's recollection about which gauge was used prior to the game. Especially when it was the ONLY Anderson statement that was deemed to be "mistaken'.

The judge in Minnesota declined to hear the case and is forcing Kessler to file in NYC.. The irony is in Minnesota the judge was a bush appointee and the judge in NYC was appointed by a dem.

 

[meyers7]

You are right. I only know what I have read in the media. I didn't realize that all the cheating accusations against the Patriots over the last 10 years or so were simply fabrications. If that is correct then the Patriots should sue the league. Frankly I'm only posting on this thread because I'm bored. I'm a Giant fan and have nothing but fond memories of Tom Brady and the Patriots.

Some of the worst people on earth. (probably universe too, but I haven't met any from there to compare)

 

[Wally East]

Back to the topic at hand. The initial report of 11 of 12 footballs being significantly deflated was in error. One was -- maybe.

 

[Ouremblem]

Please read Sally Jenkins article today, in which she quotes the special counsel for MLB, John Dowd(the man who investigated Pete Rose) as saying "The entire NFL disciplinary process lacks integrity and fairness". The NFL "knew and had no quarrel with the non-production of the phone". "The NFL commissioner has denied Tom Brady the fundamental right to a notice of charge and the right to defend against it". Perhaps that's why Judge Berman in his instructions said both sides should try to solve this beneficially NOW if they hadn't tried to already. He can't be talking to the Pats. They have no leverage anymore. Is Judge Berman in his dignified way telling Roger he's blown it again & to get reasonable?

 

[pinotbear]

..and, it looks like, 3 of the 4 Colts balls were also under-inflated. There may have been more, but, the "didn't have time" to test the other 8 balls. Conspiracy! If they had, they may have found 11 of 12 Colts footballs were deflated!

 

[Ouremblem]

..and, it looks like, 3 of the 4 Colts balls were also under-inflated. There may have been more, but, the "didn't have time" to test the other 8 balls. Conspiracy! If they had, they may have found 11 of 12 Colts footballs were deflated!

Are you reading the e-mails that were freed up concerning the false report about the number of deflated balls and the fact the NFL didn't correct the misinformation? Pash looks very bad here.

 

[toadfoot]

..and, it looks like, 3 of the 4 Colts balls were also under-inflated. There may have been more, but, the "didn't have time" to test the other 8 balls. Conspiracy! If they had, they may have found 11 of 12 Colts footballs were deflated!

And 3 of 4 were under inflated despite the fact that they likely sat in a warm 72° (or warmer) locker room for at least several minutes while the officials measured and re-inflated the Patriot's footballs, which according to several studies was sufficient to raise the PSI .5 or more and according to Anderson, the Colt's footballs were initially inflated to 13.0 or 13.1.

As far as conspiracy goes there was actually at least one article that hypothesized that the officials stopped after measuring 4 of the Colt's balls not because they ran out of time, but because they were concerned that if more of them measured below 12.5 PSI it would completely blow the case against the Patriots. I personally don't buy that and I think they probably did just run out of time after spending most of halftime measuring/adjusting the Patriot's balls.

As far as I'm concerned anyone with 2 logical brain cells to rub together should realize that this whole alleged incident never happened and the Wells investigation was done with the deliberate intent of trying to show that it did. That's why I've characterized the Wells Report as akin to a grand jury indictment, which typically presents the case for the prosecutor in the most favorable light and leaves out anything that would be exculpatory.

 

[toadfoot]

Are you reading the e-mails that were freed up concerning the false report about the number of deflated balls and the fact the NFL didn't correct the misinformation? Pash looks very bad here.

And these are just the emails between the Patriot's counsel, Robin Glaser, and Pash. When this goes to federal court I would assume the Patriot's as part of discovery will be asking for any and all documents/emails/etc. relevant to this case. Who knows what that might show! This could be fun.

 

[ocoandasoc]

Brady and the Pats cheated for the entire season, not just one game. Some of those games were close, and the deflated balls could have made the difference. A couple more losses and the playoff seeding is different, and maybe the Pats don't get to the Super Bowl.
They cheated (again!), they got caught, they need to be punished.
I would have taken their Super Bowl victory away from them.
If Brady had taken responsibility like a man, and apologized (even if insincerely), he probably would have gotten a two-game suspension. But his arrogance and lack of remorse cost him two additional games.

 

[zakalex]

Who are the first four opposing teams this coming season?

 

[Kibitzer]

Ahem.

For several posters in this thread: correct placement of the apostrophe.

When referring to the footballs of either team. use Colts' footballs or Patriots' footballs (apostrophe after the "s") to indicate team possession of the balls.

To write Patriot's or Colt's footballs (apostrophe before the "s") implies possession of balls by only one player.

Apostrophes need to be placed with care (e.g., "the UConn Huskies' championships" or "a UConn Husky's MVP award").

 

[Wally East]

Brady and the Pats cheated for the entire season, not just one game.

And how do you know this?

 

[Bigpetunia]

My, my, how worked up certain folks get over this foolishness! Well, given the irrefutable nature of Brady's guilt, it is, in fact, foolish. Guilt?? Uh huh, and unlike so many of my fellow posters, I, as is usually the case, am in a position to back up that assertion with PROOF, to wit:

Gisele, in response to the shame that Brady has brought upon his family, has putatively resorted to covering herself in a head-to-toe burqua, and is now alleged to be impersonating a Muslim in Paris! Yeah, I know, you decline to believe this. Well, my friends, just Google 'er...as Yogi himself used to say, "You could look it up!"