OT: Brady's Freed

[meyers7]

I'll be fleeing to WitSec after these comments... but A-Roid Rodriguez, Lance Armstrong, Ben Johnson, Bonds and McGwire, The 1919 Black Sox, the 2000 Spanish Paralympic teams, Rosie Ruiz, Shady Brady and Beli-Cheat- they are all birds of a feather. Based upon how beloved an athlete is or how devoted people may become to a particular sports team, people will believe what they choose to believe, willing to ignore even the most reasonable of inferences while demanding only direct evidence, which is often not possible but doesn't mean the charged is any less guilty.

People have been convicted of serious crimes based upon far less circumstantial evidence than was presented by Wells and the NFL. It is critical to note that Judge Berman only dismissed the NFL's case (and Brady's punishment) on procedural grounds, not evidentiary. Judge Berman's decision was strictly (and lawfully) based upon his finding that Brady, in Berman's opinion, had been denied due process. To wit:
1) the inadequate notice to Brady of his discipline and alleged misconduct,
2) the denial of Brady to examine lead investigator Jeff Pash, and
3) the denial of equal access to investigative files.

Brady's NFL punishment was rejected by Judge Berman because he deemed the due process clause of the 14th Amendment to have been violated. ANY evidence of cheating by Brady or New England Patriot employees, whether the result of evidence- circumstantial or direct- was NEVER considered by this court and this judge.

Don't get me wrong. We are nothing, if not a nation of laws. ALL defendants must have the absolute right to the safeguards of a fair trial that follows the rules constitutionally provided for all Americans. From John Rowland to Charles Manson to the poorest of the poor. For that reason, and that reason alone, I cannot argue with Judge Berman's decision. However; do not for one moment interpret that to mean Tom Brady is innocent of that which he was charged. He beat the charge and the punishment based upon three legal 'technicalities,' which I do not minimize for they are the bedrock of our justice system. But this is very very different than saying that Tom Brady is innocent of deflating footballs- that allegation has yet to be adjudicated, folks.

 

[j66kicker]

Where is that actual physical evidence of this? (I'm not reading that book--it doesn't exactly look credible).

If anyone suspected them of anything, why didn't the other teams change signals etc (hint: they did; and still do)? They could easily see the patriots guy from the sideline. It's not like anyone was hiding anything (as all the other teams did the same thing).

And if the patriots needed all that 'intelligence' to win, why have they continued to roll through the NFL since then? Even with the advent of radios in helmets.

Here's a condensed version of several of the pertinent points in the book (but not the statistical analysis) from the upcoming Sept 28 ESPN The Magazine. Article was published today by ESPN.com. (Not that ESPN makes the content any more credible - they had Roger Goodell as a guest on the Mike & Mike show this morning without giving him any advance notice they were releasing this highly-unflattering story at the same time.)

http://the-boneyard.com/threads/ot-espn-in-depth-article-on-deflategate-with-roots-in-spygate.80244/

 

[toadfoot]

Here's a condensed version of several of the pertinent points in the book (but not the statistical analysis) from the upcoming Sept 28 ESPN The Magazine. Article was published today by ESPN.com. (Not that ESPN makes the content any more credible - they had Roger Goodell as a guest on the Mike & Mike show this morning without giving him any advance notice they were releasing this highly-unflattering story at the same time.)

http://the-boneyard.com/threads/ot-espn-in-depth-article-on-deflategate-with-roots-in-spygate.80244/

You must have come to the Spygate party late. There's next to nothing new in either ESPN's or SI's articles. More anonymous sources making unsubstantiated allegations with virtually no evidence. Both still want to imply that video taping of signals is somehow against the rules despite the fact that it isn't and never has been.

 

[j66kicker]

You must have come to the Spygate party late. There's next to nothing new in either ESPN's or SI's articles. More anonymous sources making unsubstantiated allegations with virtually no evidence. Both still want to imply that video taping of signals is somehow against the rules despite the fact that it isn't and never has been.

"Condensed version" meant all this stuff had already been reported (in O'Leary's book in this case) years ago.

Regarding the legality of video taping signals:

"In 2006....NFL senior vice president for football operations Ray Anderson issued a memo reminding teams that “video taping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent’s offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches’ booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game.”

 

[CL82]

People have been convicted of serious crimes based upon far less circumstantial evidence than was presented by Wells and the NFL.

No, they haven't.

 

[toadfoot]

"Condensed version" meant all this stuff had already been reported (in O'Leary's book in this case) years ago.

Regarding the legality of video taping signals:

"In 2006....NFL senior vice president for football operations Ray Anderson issued a memo reminding teams that “video taping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent’s offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches’ booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game.”

And here's where ALL the confusion begins. Anderson's memo actually misstates the rule book. The rule book doesn't say that filming is prohibited from the sidelines, nor does it say anything about other locations accessible to club staff etc. Anderson made that up and he had no authority to modify the rules governing filming.

The rule book does say filming can't be done from the "field" and the field throughout the rule book is generally defined as the area between the sidelines and the endlines. In other words, you can't place your videographer in the end zone or on the field of play. You can argue that Belichick took advantage of a badly worded memo meant to clarify the rules (and did the exact opposite), but that's about it.

Finally, video taping of signals is NOT illegal and nothing in Anderson's memo says that. What the memo says is that video taping signals from "certain locations" is prohibited and as I pointed out above, his memo includes prohibitions that are simply not in the rule book. There is no rule against video taping of opponents signals, period, end of story. I have challenged others in the past to prove me wrong and I'm still waiting. No such rule exists or has ever existed.

 

[billnaples]

Here's a condensed version of several of the pertinent points in the book (but not the statistical analysis) from the upcoming Sept 28 ESPN The Magazine. Article was published today by ESPN.com. (Not that ESPN makes the content any more credible - they had Roger Goodell as a guest on the Mike & Mike show this morning without giving him any advance notice they were releasing this highly-unflattering story at the same time.)

http://the-boneyard.com/threads/ot-espn-in-depth-article-on-deflategate-with-roots-in-spygate.80244/

I like to clear the air before posting Patriot/Brady vs. NFL/Goodell opinions. I began rooting for the NY Giants probably 15 years before the then AFL Boston Patriots were born. So spare me that battle.

The haters are going to hate and those who have no ability to examine reports and see them for what they are are forever going to claim cheating. They are going to drink the Goodell Kool Aid about a number of items the NFL thinks will support them in the appeal. And I damn near peed my pants laughing this morning when he quoted the Wells report as being an independent search for facts. A report he admitted to Judge Berman was not necessarily independent or factually correct but it didn't have to be since he had the power to ignore the real world of legal fairness.

I am no legal scholar (okay, not a scholar at all) but I think eventually the 2nd Circuit will affirm the judges rejection of the NFL position because of the reality of the denial of reasonable access to reports and findings and a cross of Counsel who edited the Wells Report (Pash). All Roger said this morning was a replay of his weak presentation he made to the judge. And the judge gaveled down hard on the NFL/

 

[toadfoot]

I like to clear the air before posting Patriot/Brady vs. NFL/Goodell opinions. I began rooting for the NY Giants probably 15 years before the then AFL Boston Patriots were born. So spare me that battle.

I am no legal scholar (okay, not a scholar at all) but I think eventually the 2nd Circuit will affirm the judges rejection of the NFL position because of the reality of the denial of reasonable access to reports and findings and a cross of Counsel who edited the Wells Report (Pash). All Roger said this morning was a replay of his weak presentation he made to the judge. And the judge gaveled down hard on the NFL/

Agree. The people claiming this will be overturned by the 2nd Circuit because Berman didn't give deference to the CBA, is an activist judge, etc., are seeing this through the prism of their own hatred and jealousy of the Patriots. While no lawyer, I know enough to understand that the 2nd Circuit doesn't even have to completely agree with Berman to uphold his decision on appeal. In order to overturn they must find reversible error. Appellate courts give the original "trier of fact" a great deal of deference when it comes to assessing the evidence and rarely overturn based on the original judges evidentiary finding.

 

[Deadrody]

The stats analysis of the Pats home performance against the spread during the Belichick years up to when the book was written was more than an "outlier" - it was so statistically unlikely it's basically "impossible" for it to be random. The LV spread takes into account home field advantage, and eventually catches up to a larger-than-normal home field advantage, but not this one. (BTW Seattle is also known to have a greater-than normal home field advantage with the decibel level produced by their crowd and the stadium architecture.)

Regarding Cassel, O'Leary notes that he was excellent filling in for Brady in the Pats' system in 2008. But as a starter in Kansas City after that his completion % AND yards per completion dropped way off. He also notes coaches who did well as assistants at NE, but bombed as head coaches after they moved on (Josh McDaniels, Charlie Weiss). And if any of these guys were in on any cheating, why would they admit it afterward and implicate themselves?

None of this is "evidence, just observations. But, even as a Patriots fan, I thought there was a large body of interesting observations.

Nonsense. What it is, is the kind of brain dead stupidity that is common with all conspiracy theories. The idea, for instance, that the minimal level of cheating alleged here could have made Cassell awesome in one season in New England, but stink ever since is laughably stupid.

Ideas like those are an insult to the professional athletes in the NFL, basically chalking up the difference between winning and losing to knowing some of the other team's signals.

I'll give you an example. Assume you could positively steal every sign - from the Yankee's catcher with Mariano Rivera on the mound. You know his cutter is coming (which you basically did know). Doesn't matter. You still couldn't hit it. And even if you did, you broke your bat and hit a weak ground ball to short.

That's how elite level professional athletics works. All the hate on the Patriots is nothing more than petty jealousy. Because the Patriots are just run that much better than most other teams. The idea that they might bend the rules on top of already being better than your team ? Just too much, I guess.

 

[intlzncster]

Ideas like those are an insult to the professional athletes in the NFL, basically chalking up the difference between winning and losing to knowing some of the other team's signals.

I'll give you an example. Assume you could positively steal every sign - from the Yankee's catcher with Mariano Rivera on the mound. You know his cutter is coming (which you basically did know). Doesn't matter. You still couldn't hit it. And even if you did, you broke your bat and hit a weak ground ball to short.

Richard Sherman agrees with this sentiment completely:

"Everybody does their things a little differently, but at the end of the day, it's handled between the lines," Sherman said. "And if they man up and they beat you straight up, they beat you straight up. You can say they knew your plays or they watched this or they watched that, but a lot of times if you watch film good enough, you find good indicators. You find things. So if you're studying the game the right way, you go out there understanding what plays are coming, and you know when the plays are coming. But can you execute? Can 11 guys stop the other 11 from executing their play?

"And at the end of the day, that's what it's about. You can say you stole scripts or whatever it is, but they still have to win the game. They still have to intercept the ball. They still have to execute. Eleven guys have to execute at the same time. And that's what they did, so give them credit. If there's hanky-panky going on, they've gotten away with it.

 

[j66kicker]

Nonsense. What it is, is the kind of brain dead stupidity that is common with all conspiracy theories. The idea, for instance, that the minimal level of cheating alleged here could have made Cassell awesome in one season in New England, but stink ever since is laughably stupid.

Ideas like those are an insult to the professional athletes in the NFL, basically chalking up the difference between winning and losing to knowing some of the other team's signals.

I'll give you an example. Assume you could positively steal every sign - from the Yankee's catcher with Mariano Rivera on the mound. You know his cutter is coming (which you basically did know). Doesn't matter. You still couldn't hit it. And even if you did, you broke your bat and hit a weak ground ball to short.

That's how elite level professional athletics works. All the hate on the Patriots is nothing more than petty jealousy. Because the Patriots are just run that much better than most other teams. The idea that they might bend the rules on top of already being better than your team ? Just too much, I guess.

I agree you still have to execute. Willie McGinest said yesterday (re. the recent ESPN 'report'), "If all that stuff was true we would have won 5 Super Bowls." (They won 3 while he was a Patriot). Apparently he feels it would have provided an advantage.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on...-would-have-5-super-bowl-titles-if-we-cheated

 

[ed4ourgirls]

Looks like it's going to be soggy in Foxborough tonight. The balls will be slippery.

Steelers may want to knock 'em down a few psi.

 

[intlzncster]

Looks like it's going to be soggy in Foxborough tonight. The balls will be slippery.

Steelers may want to knock 'em down a few psi.

ESPN Breaking News tomorrow: Patriots accused attempting to alter the play of the field, by keeping it too dry during rain storms. The Steelers only brought extra long cleats, and as a result, had a difficult time with footing. Five draft picks and jail time for Tom Brady.

 

[billnaples]

Berman's ruling was based on the PROCEDURAL DEFECTS he identified. PERIOD. I think he left the door wide open on appeal. Several of his comments I find inappropriate and some may question his impartiality, particularly comments attributed to him prior to the hearing and ruling. I wouldn't want to plead my case before a judge who made such public statements. I will offer no thoughts on his impartiality, but I do know personally of his love to expeditiously dispose of cases, attorneys suggesting that a fast resolution trumps [mod edit] almost everything else for Judge Berman. And little is more expeditious than dismissing 'charges' on procedural improprieties (by DA, prosecutor, law enforcement, investigators, et al). Bing, bang, boom...case over.

I agree that his ruling was on the failure of the NFL to conduct this case in a fair manner. I just reread his decision. I am not a legal scholar but I fail to see what doors he left open ffor the NFL to have a successful appeal. Every reason he gave for his decision seemed to me to have been supported by cites of previous cases. As to impartiality I saw no remarks attributed to Berman outside of the inquiries he made in open court. It seemed to everyone except the legal scholars that he was trying to make a point to the NFL that based on his review of the record they should try to settle. In Goodell's arrogance he was not going to lose, the CBA was undeniable in giving him abusive powers. The only difference is that had this been a criminal proceeding I would have expected the "dismissal" to have been with prejudice precluding another prosecution (or in this case a persecution).

 

[01Neaggrad02]

OJ was freed and still guilty as sin....

 

[pinotbear]

OJ was freed and still guilty as sin....

Once again, somebody equates the bloody slaughter of two people with an unexplained drop in air pressure in some footballs. Un-freakin'-believable.

 

[toadfoot]

I agree that his ruling was on the failure of the NFL to conduct this case in a fair manner. I just reread his decision. I am not a legal scholar but I fail to see what doors he left open ffor the NFL to have a successful appeal. Every reason he gave for his decision seemed to me to have been supported by cites of previous cases. As to impartiality I saw no remarks attributed to Berman outside of the inquiries he made in open court. It seemed to everyone except the legal scholars that he was trying to make a point to the NFL that based on his review of the record they should try to settle. In Goodell's arrogance he was not going to lose, the CBA was undeniable in giving him abusive powers. The only difference is that had this been a criminal proceeding I would have expected the "dismissal" to have been with prejudice precluding another prosecution (or in this case a persecution).

Correct, while Berman ruled on procedural issues it also doesn't take a brain surgeon (or a psychic) to understand what the judge thought of the evidence in the case. I think anyone objectively reading his opinion would have to conclude that if the suit had been about guilt or innocence he would have thrown this case out and rebuked the NFL even worse than he did.

 

[j66kicker]

Loved the Steelers' headset controversy last night (continuing into this morning). What timing! (Is the NFL just orchestrating all this for tabloid hype? Getting very WWF-like.)

 

[Icebear]

Since the NFL is completely in control of the headset system and New England, also, had problems. It would be a further attempt to discredit and disparage the Pats without basis.

 

[toadfoot]

The blame for the perception around the league that the Patriots are cheaters falls entirely on the NFL office and specifically Roger Goodell. Spygate was a minor violation of camera location that morphed into a gigantic cheating scandal primarily due to Goodell’s mishandling of the tapes and I believe, initially believing (mistakenly) that taping signals was illegal. Deflategate will eventually be shown to be entirely a weather related phenomena that Goodell and the league office almost single handedly created when they overreacted without knowledge of the Ideal Gas Law. Then ESPN and SI dredge up pre-Spygate nonsense citing unnamed sources with unsubstantiated allegations and no evidence. Finally we have communications issues, the Steelers cry foul and the internet goes ballistic even though communication equipment is the responsibility of the NFL.

Goodell and the NFL office have essentially let the genie out of the bottle and it’s tarnishing the entire league. If Goodell had an once of integrity every time a new allegation is made he should be demanding that sources go on the record with hard evidence and if they can’t the league should issue strong, clear statements that such unfounded and unnamed allegations will not be permitted. If made by current players/coaches/owners they should be fined or suspended. It is unconscionable that a team, its players, coaches and owner should be subjected to innuendo and charges of cheating without even the slightest shred of evidence.

A good start would be fining/suspending Tomlin for his post-game comments last night. It's people around the league like Tomlin and his tinfoil hat that are harming the integrity of the league.

 

[billnaples]

The blame for the perception around the league that the Patriots are cheaters falls entirely on the NFL office and specifically Roger Goodell.

Quite true and enhanced by the jealous and envious who can't compete on a consistent basis. I never saw an apology from Chris Mortenson for posting the lies leaked to him, he only removed it after some considerable time had passed and long after he knew the data was wrong. He should not be allowed in any facility to talk to any players unless and until he identifies the source in the NFL office who fed him the lie.

 

[intlzncster]

Loved the Steelers' headset controversy last night (continuing into this morning). What timing! (Is the NFL just orchestrating all this for tabloid hype? Getting very WWF-like.)

Funny part is it happens everywhere. And the Pats headsets were screwed up too. Certainly nothing to do with the torrential rain storms during the game though.

The Steelers' problem was that they inexplicably decided to NOT cover Gronk. Whoops. Then make excuse for idiocy after the game and feel better about themselves.

More proof that BB is all up in other coaches' heads. If only that bloody Coughlin wasn't such a hard headed bastard.

 

[intlzncster]

Notice he's tweeted only TWICE since the judge ruled. Hiding under a rock.

 

[intlzncster]

Also thought it was funny that 'unnamed sources' said this morning that Steelers would file a complaint. Then of course the Steelers 'decide' not to do so later in the day.

Hooray for 'unnamed sources'.

 

[intlzncster]

 

[intlzncster]

 

[j66kicker]

Brady completed 19 consecutive passes last night. This is so statistically unlikely it is pretty much 'proof' that he cheated. Not sure HOW he cheated, but we're pretty sure he did. We'll figure out the 'how' though...

 

[UcMiami]

The NFL is proving to be a completely Mickey Mouse operation - amazing that the richest sports league in the country nickel and dimes its way through life with equipment that most coaches complain ALWAYS has problems.

They are two cheap to install a consistent set of 64 end zone cameras so replay angles vary in every stadium and lead to inconsistency in ability to judge what is and isn't a touchdown.

They lock out their refs for the start of a year and used scabs that effect the 'integrity' of the game in more serious ways than PEDS or domestic abuse (not saying those are not serious issues, but blown calls directly effect the outcome of specific games in ways the others do not.)

They never cared about inflation of footballs and have no protocols and dime store gauges and no knowledge of science, until they care about it so much, and then install a system involving 18 steps for all future games that is about as complex as defusing a nuclear bomb.

They lie and obfuscate for years about concussion issues like the tobacco companies did about cancer and addiction.

And they run a league office of mediocrities with loose lips and little integrity, headed by a gutless public opinion poll swayed, anger management troubled commissioner who was to 'scared' to perform his duty and attend the opening game of a new season. Suspect he is the first sports league commissioner to miss an opening day in any league around the world.

 

[alexrgct]

Bottom line, Pats are 1-0 and defending SB champions, Brady is the starting QB, and Hatriots gonna hate, much to their chagrin...

 

[MJL243]

Goodell and the NFL office have essentially let the genie out of the bottle and it’s tarnishing the entire league. If Goodell had an once of integrity every time a new allegation is made he should be demanding that sources go on the record with hard evidence and if they can’t the league should issue strong, clear statements that such unfounded and unnamed allegations will not be permitted. If made by current players/coaches/owners they should be fined or suspended. It is unconscionable that a team, its players, coaches and owner should be subjected to innuendo and charges of cheating without even the slightest shred of evidence.

A good start would be fining/suspending Tomlin for his post-game comments last night. It's people around the league like Tomlin and his tinfoil hat that are harming the integrity of the league.

Have you been lurking on the Summitt?