OT: Bob Dylan wins Nobel Prize in Literature

[8893]

First rap song?

 

[bags27]

First rap song?

Often called that, but really rap-style is much older. Even Chuck Berry had the cadence, if not the same type of rhyming pattern, IMO. Dylan is our consummate genius--not for inventing anything, but in perfecting much (like Plato).

 

[jimazee]

Go 'way from my window
Leave at your own chosen speed
I'm not the one you want, babe
I'm not the one you need
You say you're lookin' for someone
Who's never weak but always strong
To protect you an' defend you
Whether you are right or wrong
Someone to open each and every door
But it ain't me, babe
No, no, no, it ain't me babe
It ain't me you're lookin' for, babe

Go lightly from the ledge, babe
Go lightly on the ground
I'm not the one you want, babe
I will only let your down
You say you're lookin' for someone
Who will promise never to part
Someone to close his eyes for you
Someone to close his heart
Someone who will die for you an' more
But it ain't me, babe
No, no, no, it ain't me babe
It ain't me you're lookin' for, babe

Go melt back in the night
Everything inside is made of stone
There's nothing in here moving
An' anyway I'm not alone
You say you're looking for someone
Who'll pick you up each time you fall
To gather flowers constantly
An' to come each time you call
A lover for your life an' nothing more
But it ain't me, babe
No, no, no, it ain't me, babe
It ain't me you're lookin' for, babe

Written by Bob Dylan • Copyright © Bob Dylan Music Co.

 

[wire chief]

Springsteen on Dylan » The Official Bruce Springsteen Website

powerful. with the recipient most deserving.

 

[wire chief]

Go 'way from my window
Leave at your own chosen speed
I'm not the one you want, babe
I'm not the one you need
You say you're lookin' for someone
Who's never weak but always strong
To protect you an' defend you
Whether you are right or wrong
Someone to open each and every door
But it ain't me, babe
No, no, no, it ain't me babe
It ain't me you're lookin' for, babe

Go lightly from the ledge, babe
Go lightly on the ground
I'm not the one you want, babe
I will only let your down
You say you're lookin' for someone
Who will promise never to part
Someone to close his eyes for you
Someone to close his heart
Someone who will die for you an' more
But it ain't me, babe
No, no, no, it ain't me babe
It ain't me you're lookin' for, babe

Go melt back in the night
Everything inside is made of stone
There's nothing in here moving
An' anyway I'm not alone
You say you're looking for someone
Who'll pick you up each time you fall
To gather flowers constantly
An' to come each time you call
A lover for your life an' nothing more
But it ain't me, babe
No, no, no, it ain't me, babe
It ain't me you're lookin' for, babe

Written by Bob Dylan • Copyright © Bob Dylan Music Co.

In the Before the Flood live album, he shakes us up grandly with an upbeat version.

bob dylan before the flood album It ain't me babe - Bing video

 

[Conndog]

Sorry, but I don't agree with Dylan getting this award. Is he one of the greatest song writers of all time? Yes, without question. But, even if you believe he is the greatest song writer ever, comparing song lyrics to novels and books is ludicrous. Where is character development, layers of plot with twists and turns, or rich illustrations of history or location?

I love lots of his songs, but come on, they aren't on the level of the world's great literature. Not trying to blame or demean Dylan, he's great, but saying that song lyrics are equivalent to literature is like saying finger painting is equivalent to a Van Gogh work.

 

[bags27]

Sorry, but I don't agree with Dylan getting this award. Is he one of the greatest song writers of all time? Yes, without question. But, even if you believe he is the greatest song writer ever, comparing song lyrics to novels and books is ludicrous. Where is character development, layers of plot with twists and turns, or rich illustrations of history or location? I love lots of his songs, but come on, they aren't on the level of the world's great literature. Not trying to blame or demean Dylan, he's great, but saying that song lyrics are equivalent to literature is like saying finger painting is equivalent to a Van Gogh work.

I appreciate your point, but, to be contrarian, I think a lot of his songs have precisely that. An easy example is "Hurricane", or "The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carrol" or "God on their side" (lyrics above). I think the Nobel committee made its statement last year when it awarded the Literature Prize to Svetlana Alexievich, whose works are oral histories. Clearly, the committee is attempting to understand literary production in a way that departs from its tradition. Which is only natural, I think, when we see what's happened with the electronic media and the way that has transformed communication.

 

[itsasport]

I seldom agree with the New York Times, but they said that awarding the prize to Dylon, who is already famous, has the effect of denying justifiable recognition to a great writer or poet who will now pass unnoticed to the general public.

The article said that the decision has caused a great furor in the creative community, who consider the choice to be a farce..

First of all, it is common knowledge that Dylan took much of his prose from others.. It is apparently not that uncommon in his field and considered an homage. It was done in classical music, but always with an attribution to the original.

To me, it is plagiarism which in itself should disqualify him from receiving an award of any kind.

Even without that, Dylon's work is, at best, enjoyable pop poetry. The difference between his work and great poetry is like comparing UConn and Tennessee women's basketball.

All really great poets and prose writers receive many substantial awards on the way to getting a Nobel. Dylan has , to my knowledge, received none of them and had no standing in the literary community.

I think that this award will do tremendous damage to the Nobel Committee and the standing of the Nobel Prize itself.

 

[Husky25]

I seldom agree with the New York Times, but they said that awarding the prize to Dylon, who is already famous, has the effect of denying justifiable recognition to a great writer or poet who will now pass unnoticed to the general public..

As someone who doesn't care one way or they other, Was the NYT okay with President Obama getting the prize, or does "Leader of the Free World" not come with the requisite amount of recognition?

 

[8893]

I seldom agree with the New York Times, but they said that awarding the prize to Dylon, who is already famous, has the effect of denying justifiable recognition to a great writer or poet who will now pass unnoticed to the general public.

***

Even without that, Dylon's work is, at best, enjoyable pop poetry. The difference between his work and great poetry is like comparing UConn and Tennessee women's basketball.

Not famous enough for you to know how to spell his name.

Where was the outrage when Winston Churchill won the award?

 

[bags27]

All really great poets and prose writers receive many substantial awards on the way to getting a Nobel. Dylan has , to my knowledge, received none of them and had no standing in the literary community.
.

Dylan's Pulitzer Prize doesn't count; how about his Oscar, his Kennedy Award, his Grammies?

Great academic scholars of poetry, such as Sir Christopher Ricks and Sir Frank Kermode, have said for decades that Dylan's poetry ranks at or near the top in the world. Courses on Dylan are offered at Harvard University, University of Minnesota, University of Chicago, and Brown University, among others. One of the most important books written on Dylan is by a Pulitzer Prize winning Princeton University history professor.

I recognize that this is a shocking event--pretty much took everyone by surprise. But we humans have a difficult time with change. The Nobel Committee failed, for example, to give the award to James Joyce because his work was so radically different than anything previously. Looking back, it was a massive, massive failure. Joyce is now widely rewarded as the most important literary voice of the entire 20th century. And were we living in the late 19th century, we might well discount the musings of a shy young woman living in Amherst, MA. Fortunately Thomas Wentworth Higginson, an important literary patron of his day, did not, and so we have the poetry of Emily Dickinson, poetry that transcends the ages. No one then, not even Higginson, could possibly have predicted that.

Dylan is 75 and not always in the best of health. When he dies, he's no longer eligible. The Committee certainly appreciated that burden of history.

 

[itsasport]

I thought Obama was an equally stupid choice and was surprised when I went through the list and saw Churchill's name. But he, at least, was a good writer, not a great one.

Concerning the spelling issue, the Nobel winner doesn't spell his own name correctly...it is Zimmerman. I learned that years ago from my stepmother who was a friend of his family and knew him as a child. She had only good things to say about them and him.
I understand the reasoning. My grandmother changed the family name from Fuchs.

On the subject of song writing and poetry. A nephew is a musician and his girlfriend majored in poetry in college. I once asked him if he had ever used her work in his songs. He said no because
good poetry had to be watered down and simplified to be useful as lyrics.

 

[Husky25]

I thought Obama was an equally stupid choice and was surprised when I went through the list and saw Churchill's name. But he, at least, was a good writer, not a great one.

Concerning the spelling issue, the Nobel winner doesn't spell his own name correctly...it is Zimmerman. I learned that years ago from my stepmother who was a friend of his family and knew him as a child. She had only good things to say about them and him.
I understand the reasoning. My grandmother changed the family name from Fuchs.

On the subject of song writing and poetry. A nephew is a musician and his girlfriend majored in poetry in college. I once asked him if he had ever used her work in his songs. He said no because
good poetry had to be watered down and simplified to be useful as lyrics.

Thanks for your opinion, but that is not what I asked. I asked about the Times.

Incidentally, it appears The NYT were puzzled with the Obama selection, but it had little to do with notoriety. The Times moved the goal posts to "condemn" the selection of Dylan as far in the opposite direction as the Nobel Committee did in awarding it.

 

[itsasport]

I thought that Obama's award was equally stupid and reinforces my point about the questionable judgement of the Nobel Committee.

Churchill didn't deserve it either. But it might have been a reward for saving Europe from the book-burning Nazi's.

Has Dylan received any award from the Poetry Society of America, etc. or was he ever the Poet Laureate of America?

 

[8893]

Concerning the spelling issue, the Nobel winner doesn't spell his own name correctly...it is Zimmerman.

That explains your use of "Dylon" how?

Do you have a problem with him changing his name? Let's hear all the other excuses why you don't think he's worthy.

He's been pissing people off since 1962, so your rage is a valuable part of the dynamic.

 

[bags27]

this is fun....

Nobel Committee can't get a hold of Bob Dylan - CNN.com

maybe itsasport will get his wish, and Dylan won't bother to show up

 

[itsasport]

The "o" was simply a typo. The "Zimmerman" was a joke; but, I now remember that some of his family were bothered by the name change.

The Times was only used as the source of the negative opinion in the poetry community. It is not an excuse to state that Dylan never received any of the increasing levels of recognition that would be expected for someone who was regarded highly by fellows in his discipline.

My guess is that the reason that he has not responded to the award is that he has the same respect for great poetry as I do and he knows that the award is not justified. His is probably dumbfounded and a little embarrassed. I doubt he will accept the award personally.

What bothers me is the dumbing down that is occurring; and again, that the Nobel for Literature is seldom awarded for poetry (there should be a separate award) and that there are many more deserving, and that one of them will never receive the recognition he/she deserved.

Perhaps all this will will encourage us, including me, to read more poetry and even buy some.

 

[Husky25]

 

[AZHuskiePop]

Could be worth a Nobel by itself:

I wish that for just one time
You could stand inside my shoes
And just for that one moment
I could be you

Yes, I wish that for just one time
You could stand inside my shoes
You’d know what a drag it is
To see you

An ode to Joan Biaz
I think I described a poster here is positively 4th Street
I was an early fan and actually saw him perform at the old New Haven Arena.

 

[8893]

Perhaps all this will will encourage us, including me, to read more poetry and even buy some.

I don't know if it supports your point, but it certainly supports the same ends that Dylan turned me on to Verlaine and Rimbaud and made me seek out their work.

 

[ed4ourgirls]

He's been pissing people off since 1962, so your rage is a valuable part of the dynamic.

Back when the counterculture was the counterculture I'm sure Dylan did piss off more than a few folks.

But now that the counterculture has, in large measure, become the culture, I suspect that the contemporary
reaction to Dylan is more likely to be indifference or boredom than ire.

 

[AZHuskiePop]

Sorry, but I don't agree with Dylan getting this award. Is he one of the greatest song writers of all time? Yes, without question. But, even if you believe he is the greatest song writer ever, comparing song lyrics to novels and books is ludicrous. Where is character development, layers of plot with twists and turns, or rich illustrations of history or location?
I love lots of his songs, but come on, they aren't on the level of the world's great literature. Not trying to blame or demean Dylan, he's great, but saying that song lyrics are equivalent to literature is like saying finger painting is equivalent to a Van Gogh work.

So William Shakespere should be excluded
Prose describes which is fine.I believe Tolkien was a genius.but
Poetry is experienced and its the most ambitious use of the written word.

 

[bags27]

What bothers me is the dumbing down that is occurring; and again, that the Nobel for Literature is seldom awarded for poetry (there should be a separate award) and that there are many more deserving, and that one of them will never receive the recognition he/she deserved.Perhaps all this will will encourage us, including me, to read more poetry and even buy some.

Laying my cards on the table: I don't think you know what you're talking about. I think you just don't like Dylan (which is entirely fair) and are boxed into a corner without a deep understanding or appreciation of the kinds of literature that merit such an award.

Having said that, I am interested in what poets you think deserve the honor ahead of Dylan (on the honor system: no fair googling an answer). I ask this so that perhaps I can be surprised to learn that you really do know what you're talking about, and, if not, so that you can appreciate that you don't.

 

[bags27]

Back when the counterculture was the counterculture I'm sure Dylan did piss off more than a few folks.

But now that the counterculture has, in large measure, become the culture, I suspect that the contemporary
reaction to Dylan is more likely to be indifference or boredom than ire.

The New York Times the next day ran THREE long articles praising the award, plus an op-ed to that effect. The New Yorker posted two articles in praise on its website within hours. The Rolling Stone article (which I think started this conversation) was posted immediately. "What took them so long" is I think how it started.
Dylan has gone so far beyond counterculture stuff. His three main albums of the late 90s to mid-00s contain a number of masterpieces reflecting on what it means to be getting old. In every way, this is a major intellectual event.

 

[Intpseeker]

An ode to Joan Biaz
I think I described a poster here is positively 4th Street
I was an early fan and actually saw him perform at the old New Haven Arena.

My first real concert. Dylan at the Bushnell, end of October 1965. Last row of the balcony for the acoustic first set, then right down front when many bolted in protest when he went seriously electric for the second set.