OT: Blessing in Disguise or Curse? - the Patriot League

[Carl Spackler]

The discussion on a former player and the football program known for the seven blocks of granite......got me thinking, and I talked about it briefly but it got passed over.

The Patriot League nearly lost Fordham a few years ago, because Fordham, against league policy, and against the model that had been built on Ivy's started awarding football scholarships again. Regardless of whether or not you think 1-AA palyers can play in the NFL (they can) or not - this is a MAJOR issue for UCONN - and other northern/eastern football programs moving forward, as each one of the Patriot League programs ramps up it's scholarship football to 63.

Competition for players - in the short term. Never mind Boston College and Syracuse, Temple or Rutgers, or Penn State - they will have the same problems.

My opinion is that in the long term, this will be a very healthy thing for the sport of football in our region of the country for all of those programs - UCONN, BC, Syracuse, Temple, Rutgers and Penn STate (and that should be the current 1A football conference in our region of the country by any reasonable rationale not governed by television greed - but I digress)

- the most populous, (is that word?) and most affluent area of the country, and the region of country with the most univeristies - we sit right in the middle. As more and more prestigious, large public, and small private colleges continue to offer scholarships, the youth sport of football will improve. There are more potential scholarships in football, vastly more, to be earned by young athletes, than in any other sport. Never mind if the Ivy's ever decide to stop playing charades with scholarships and actually get involved again - and they might - as they already do offer financial aid, and recruit totally imbalanced by academics.

The Ivy League, changed football in a dramatic way decades ago, that most of the SEC, ACC, etc. can not even have a faint grasp on, as the cultures are so different because of the corruption in the sport around television money.

It is slowly, over decades, changing again. The Patriot League consists of: at 1-AA, Bucknell, Colgate, Fordham, Georgetown, Holy Cross, Lafayette, Lehigh, and currently 1A football independants Army and Navy. In a year or two, that will be another approximately 500 or so athletes per year out of the following regions being recruited for scholarship football and scholarship academics.

THe regions are as follows - per the first class 2013:

2013 Patriot League Football Recruiting Class consisted of 135 players. By 2015 or so it will be somewhere around 500 per year.

By State: Pennsylvania (21); New Jersey (20); New York (18); Florida (17); Illinois (7); Ohio, Virginia (6); Maryland, Massachusetts and California (4); Connecticut, Georgia, Washington and North Carolina (3); Delaware, South Carolina, Colorado, Tennessee and Texas (2); Missouri, Kansas, New Mexico, Louisiana, Michigan, District of Columbia and Ontario (Canada) (1)

By Position: Offensive Line (30); Defensive Line (26); Wide Receivers (19); Defensive Backfield (17); Quarterbacks (12); Linebackers (11); Punters/Kickers (8); Running Backs (7); Tight Ends (5); Fullback (1); Athlete (1)

Here are the players and where they are from:


http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools...2012-13/misc_non_event/PLFBRecruiting2013.pdf



I think it's very interesting stuff for the future of our program. It is essential, that UCONN - as a football program, be promoted and grown as a center for football development of athletes in our region, or we will have great difficulty recruiting.

WHomever is brought in as the next head coach must have a great understanding of the work they need to do for this program, to become a recruiting powerhouse. This is why it's very unfortunate that Pasqauloni was unable to succeed. He is one of the few people that truly knows this, and hopefully in his short time, he was able to transfer that knowledge to somebody.

We need our administration to really make some choices as to the kind of athletes we are going to recruit, and what kinds of practices in recruiting, admission standards we will practice, and who to model those things after.

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

Things are this bad? We're worried about competing with Patriot League teams for recruits?

Is this post serious? Tell me I'm misunderstanding this.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Things are this bad? We're worried about competing with Patriot League teams for recruits?

Is this post serious? Tell me I'm misunderstanding this.

Yes it's serious, and no you are not misunderstanding it.

Not only is UCONN going to be competing for athletes at the top end, as we usually are, like we have been since upgrading, we are going to more than ever competition on the bottom end. What's so hard to understand? - are the best players in 1-AA that much different from the lowest players in 1-A? Is another 500 players out of PA, NJ, CT, NY, New England, Florida, Texas being not just recruited - but actually awarded scholarships in the coming years.......not going to be a problem for us? That's 500 players a year, that we won't have the opportunity to "Coach Up" because they will be playing elsewhere on scholarship.

If I'm crazy, I'm crazy. I think it's a major issue in the future, especially as long as the current intercollegiate landscape maintains itself and we are not considered among ESPN elite of the 'Power 5' label.

If we had the label "Big 10 conference member UCONN.....", or even ACC (puke) conference member UCONN"

then you can call me crazy and I won't argue.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Also - all it takes is a very dynamic, young, and energetic leader to make things work for us. We have all the tools built and ready to be what we need to be, in recruiting. Eventually the football facilities will need to be renovated, but they are still new, and they are still impressive. We have a university that is tops in the country among publics in academics. We have an athletic department that in every respect is a national contender for titles (except for football - yet). We will need an administration that is willing to follow the models that both the Big 10 an the Ivy's follow for admission of student athletes.

FWIW - the average SAT scores for a football player in the Ivy league are SIGNIFICANTLY lower than the general student body. Those SAT scores are probably still tops in the entire student body for an SEC school, but it's relative. The big 10 admits students that are not on par with the general student body.

These policies need to be re-examined at UCONN. You can have academic success and follow good ethics and do things the right way, without shooting yourself in the foot with admissions.

The Ivy's do it every year.

 

[Carl Spackler]

BTW: Look at that list of players. For those of you that follow recruiting, our coaching staff, whatever it is going to be in the future, is going to be running into coaches from these Patriot league schools at the places we have drawn players in the past, and currently, and if we can't find a way to separate ourselves, as a school, very quickly, and definitively, we will have plenty of recruiting competition.

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

I am not concerned. Nor do I think this is an issue for UConn. We will agree to disagree, as per usual.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I am not concerned. Nor do I think this is an issue for UConn. We will agree to disagree, as per usual.

Fair enough.

I think that people that actually coach and recruit would feel differently though. UCONN needs to be much different than say...... a Colgate when we go into say..... a St. Thomas Aquinas high school and recruit offensive linemen in the future. (Kyle Schafenacker UCONN - Zack Provin - Colgate)

There are many other examples. It is essential that our next head coach, is able to sell our program at the level we want to be at, and to do that, minus the "power 5" media lable, they are going to need to be able to get huge numbers of high quality players and high school coaches from far away, to visit campus.

I do think that in the long term, as long as we survive the interim, it will be beneficial, because locally, the enormous population of the northeast USA will begin to pump out high quality high school athletes as the numbers of scholarships available ramp up.

But we've got to survive, and not just survive - THRIVE - before we get there.

That's all I'll say on this. I've given my reading of tea leaves.

 

[J187Money]

I can't say much about this from a football context, but for some kids - it is about the NFL dream. For some kids, it is about getting an education. If you are a high 1AA kid or low 1A kid, do you want to go to Georgetown for free or UCONN for free? If you want to play and aren't concerned about the NFL, hard to argue that this isn't competition. I'm not saying UCONN doesn't have something to offer, but Carl is right - they need to keep offering something special or this could become a problem until the region puts out enough kids so there are enough to go around.

 

[ZooCougar]

It's both hilarious and embarassing that this thread exists.

We already had the A-10, which became the CAA. The CAA is the strongest FCS conference top to bottom. One of their schools actually beat us pretty badly on our own field.

The Patriot League? The non scholarship I-AAs were/are essentially souped up D-III teams.

If anything adding scholarships to the PL hurts the CAA.

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

I can't say much about this from a football context, but for some kids - it is about the NFL dream. For some kids, it is about getting an education. If you are a high 1AA kid or low 1A kid, do you want to go to Georgetown for free or UCONN for free? If you want to play and aren't concerned about the NFL, hard to argue that this isn't competition. I'm not saying UCONN doesn't have something to offer, but Carl is right - they need to keep offering something special or this could become a problem until the region puts out enough kids so there are enough to go around.

So we lose a kid like Matt Edwards to Fordham? That's a big deal?

Recruit A walks into Colgate's weight room a week after touring the Burton and Shenk. What does the Colgate coach say?

 

[Palatine]

The more scholarships available, the better. That will increase the level of play in high schools and benefit UConn.

 

[Carl Spackler]

So we lose a kid like Matt Edwards to Fordham? That's a big deal?

Recruit A walks into Colgate's weight room a week after touring the Burton and Shenk. What does the Colgate coach say?

I've covered this in the stuff I"ve written, I know I'm long winded but you might want to re-read it all.

FWIW: Do you have any idea where UCONN ranks as compared to schools like LeHigh, Lafayette, Bucknell, Colgate, Georgetown as to endowment funds and basic financial stability and wealth? Go ahead and look it up. We are in the process right now of working like hell just to double the endowment funds that were in place when the current president got here - and that doubled amount if/when we get to it (not sure if we've done it yet) - would be about $600k or so. Compare the $320k our endowment was to the financial value of the patriot league.

If those schools, make the commitment to invest in football - they will easily be able to build facilities, and they won't need television money to do it. They are already recruiting athletes that are the same physical qualities of division 1. The biggest problem that they will face is that none of the "power" leagues are going to want to schedule them for fear of losing. That leaves schools like us to be scheduling them, for our "easy" wins.

We need to maintain the separation that we've established in recruiting, and the next head coach better have a detailed understanding of it. In the long term, I think we will be fine, because more and more northeastern high schools will focus on football to produce scholarship opportunities for kids. But in the short term - we will have competition for the athletes that normally would have jumped at a UCONN offer when it came.

 

[J187Money]

So we lose a kid like Matt Edwards to Fordham? That's a big deal?

Recruit A walks into Colgate's weight room a week after touring the Burton and Shenk. What does the Colgate coach say?

If the kid is any type of an academic - there is plenty to say.

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

If the kid is any type of an academic - there is plenty to say.

Yeah.....we lost a couple of kids to Harvard in the past few years. Big deal?

This idea that the Patriot League is going to invest all of this money into football and become a threat to the 1A programs (which is what I believe Carl's insinuation is here) in the Northeast is laughable at best.

 

[J187Money]

Yeah.....we lost a couple of kids to Harvard in the past few years. Big deal?

This idea that the Patriot League is going to invest all of this money into football and become a threat to the 1A programs (which is what I believe Carl's insinuation is here) in the Northeast is laughable at best.

If we are stuck in the AAC forever this isn't a problem? Most of you here have said it is doomsday if we don't get out of the AAC. Carl said specifically this isn't an issue if we are B1G or ACC. So it isn't doomsday if we are in the AAC forever?

 

[freescooter]

If Carl's point was Palatine's point, I tend to agree that over time it will contribute to an increase in the quality of players. But if it was that we have to compete with Pat League for players I don't think that's going to happen except at the margin where it already happens (and we generally win)

He's some numbers I found on a recruiting site on the typical 1A vs 1AA recruit. Basically we're looking for bigger stronger faster guys. Vis-a vis the Patriot League we're looking for even bigger stronger and faster guys.
Position 1A H/W 40 Bench/ Sqt 1AAH/W 40 B/S
QB 6-3/200 4.6 260/425 6-2/200 4.7 250/385
RB 6/210 4.5 315/415 5-11/190 4.55 280/390
OL 6-4/280 5.1 320/450 6-3/270 5.4 305/425
LB 6-2/220 4.7 300/435 6-0/210 4.7 290/405

Obviously there are 1A guys who are smaller and 1AA guys who are bigger, but these are the averages, the prototypes if you will for recruits. I saw a similar comparison for average size and weight of 1A vs. 1AA players somewhere but couldn't locate it. Shows basically the same thing. average oline is an inch taller and 10-15 pounds heavier and quarterbacks are 2-3 inches taller. Same standards apply to the other positions.

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

If we are stuck in the AAC forever this isn't a problem? Most of you here have said it is doomsday if we don't get out of the AAC. Carl said specifically this isn't an issue if we are B1G or ACC. So it isn't doomsday if we are in the AAC forever?

Doomsday doesn't necessarily mean scratching and clawing with Colgate and Georgetown for recruits. If that ever came close to reality I'd lock arms with Nelson is calling for us to shut down the program.

 

[BHusky]

I've covered this in the stuff I"ve written, I know I'm long winded but you might want to re-read it all.

FWIW: Do you have any idea where UCONN ranks as compared to schools like LeHigh, Lafayette, Bucknell, Colgate, Georgetown as to endowment funds and basic financial stability and wealth? Go ahead and look it up. We are in the process right now of working like hell just to double the endowment funds that were in place when the current president got here - and that doubled amount if/when we get to it (not sure if we've done it yet) - would be about $600k or so. Compare the $320k our endowment was to the financial value of the patriot league.

If those schools, make the commitment to invest in football - they will easily be able to build facilities, and they won't need television money to do it. They are already recruiting athletes that are the same physical qualities of division 1. The biggest problem that they will face is that none of the "power" leagues are going to want to schedule them for fear of losing. That leaves schools like us to be scheduling them, for our "easy" wins.

We need to maintain the separation that we've established in recruiting, and the next head coach better have a detailed understanding of it. In the long term, I think we will be fine, because more and more northeastern high schools will focus on football to produce scholarship opportunities for kids. But in the short term - we will have competition for the athletes that normally would have jumped at a UCONN offer when it came.

There is and always has been competition with these types of schools when you have a low level recruit with excellent grades. This is not new just because these schools have tangible scholarships to offer. They are just taking money from a different pool of dollars and instead of "financial aid" or an "academic scholarship" these kids would be getting an athletic scholarship. If you are smart and a great athlete, you would be shocked at the type of money these schools can offer kids and how creative they can get. I had a buddy who was a low 1A prospect, excellent 1AA prospect and he went to a premier Ivy to play football with 100% financial aid. Regardless of where the money came from it was a FREE education to play football and he was not necessarily low income.

And why would any of these schools upgrade facilities to the level of a UConn? They do not desire to be 1A program and upgrading facilities to that level would be a waste of money. In fact, how many football fans outside of the Northeast/NY/PA know where Fordham, Lehigh or Lafayette are or how their football teams are? He is no rocket scientist, but Herbstreit mentioned Fordham on College Gameday and they jokingly asked him where Fordham was and he had no clue. Sorry, but just because these schools get scholarships does not mean they are now national names and we are now fighting with them for athletes. Athletes will still notice the 1AA facilities, the 5k seat stadium, the small numbers of undergrads and at places like Colgate/LeHigh, the brutal winters which make Storrs feel like FLA come January.

 

[Carl Spackler]

we never really matched up with the football programs from the patriot league head to head on the field. Never played them. But we did recruit against them in the past, and we will recruit against them in the future.

Did anyone look at that list? No way to know the speeds/skill levels of the players but let's look at offensive line - the heart of any team

2013 Bucknell OL scholarship recruits:

6'3 260
6'3 290
6'4 280
6'7 300

Colgate
6'3" 295
6"4 270

Fordham
6'3" 300
6'7" 295
6'4" 275

Etc.

There are lots of basketball people around. Jim Calhoun was very vocal in the past that the gap between the top schools recruits and the not-top school recruits in basketball was getting smaller and smaller, and that is the reason why it's difficult to advance, and that eventually a #1 seed will lose to a #16.

Why should there be a difference in football?

It's food for thought, any which way you look at it. Toss it aside as meaningless if you want, or don't....but if you choose to play ostrich and bury your head in the sand too, y'all free to do that too.

THis will have an impact on UCONN in the future, and if it's ignored, that impact could be bad. If it's addressed well, it could be made to be a strong benefit.

 

[Carl Spackler]

There is and always has been competition with these types of schools when you have a low level recruit with excellent grades. This is not new just because these schools have tangible scholarships to offer. They are just taking money from a different pool of dollars and instead of "financial aid" or an "academic scholarship" these kids would be getting an athletic scholarship. If you are smart and a great athlete, you would be shocked at the type of money these schools can offer kids and how creative they can get. I had a buddy who was a low 1A prospect, excellent 1AA prospect and he went to a premier Ivy to play football with 100% financial aid. Regardless of where the money came from it was a FREE education to play football and he was not necessarily low income.

And why would any of these schools upgrade facilities to the level of a UConn? They do not desire to be 1A program and upgrading facilities to that level would be a waste of money. In fact, how many football fans outside of the Northeast/NY/PA know where Fordham, Lehigh or Lafayette are or how their football teams are? He is no rocket scientist, but Herbstreit mentioned Fordham on College Gameday and they jokingly asked him where Fordham was and he had no clue. Sorry, but just because these schools get scholarships does not mean they are now national names and we are now fighting with them for athletes. Athletes will still notice the 1AA facilities, the 5k seat stadium, the small numbers of undergrads and at places like Colgate/LeHigh, the brutal winters which make Storrs feel like FLA come January.

The Ivy's have been doing that for years. It's a sham that they cling to the image of "no scholarship athletes". Herbstreit isn't the source I'd be looking at for college football knowledge BTW - if you ask me, he's a puppet on ESPN.

ANd you are reinforcing the point I'm making. We are going to have to build and find ways to get players and entire high school programs to visit our campus like never before. Randy Edsall used to run camps and invite high schools, just like Pasqualoni did - the new coach, will need to do it as well, but needs to be better at it than anyone else.

We also need to promote the hell out of our NFL players.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Yeah.....we lost a couple of kids to Harvard in the past few years. Big deal?

This idea that the Patriot League is going to invest all of this money into football and become a threat to the 1A programs (which is what I believe Carl's insinuation is here) in the Northeast is laughable at best.

No - you aren't getting it. I'm insinuating that come the recruiting class for 2015 - which isn't far away - there will be a new pull of about 500 players out PA, NJ, NY, CT, MA, TX and FL. You can argue all you want how many of those new 500 scholarships per year are going to go to 1A quality players - but even if only 10% go to 1A quality players, that's still 50 more players than usual, that will accept scholarship to somewhere other than UCONN. We are recruiting not only against the regulars that pull from our regions (BC/Cuse/PSU - which will be ramping up again, etc.), but we will be recruiting at the other end of the spectrum with several other programs.

Navy football, has foreseen this for years, and that is why they were hell bent in getting into a BCS conference, and will still be interested in joining a conference even of the status of the AAC.

 

[Carl Spackler]

There has been a lot of discussion about new head coaches. The new head coach for UCONN, needs to be able to recruit, and needs to understand the landscape of what recruiting for UCONN is. that is the most important quality in the next head coach - if the next head coach doesn't recognize that our recruiting pool is going to be getting attacked from the bottom up, and is able to handle it, and turn it into something good - which is possible, although I won't discuss my ideas about that here, we are going to be in big trouble, and will have a great deal of difficulty in climbing out the perennial cellar category in football.

Houston, SMU, Central Florida, Cincinatti, South Florida....these programs have distinct advantages in the ease of recruiting for coaches over where we are at.

The next coach at UCONN will earn his long digit salary through recruiting, not x's and o's.

 

[Duncan Idaho]

no more than 60 schollies, no more than 15/year Army and Navy dont play in the league for football. Their rosters will be filled from the bottom, up, they will be able to offer kids who are at NEC level and lower.

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

we never really matched up with the football programs from the patriot league head to head on the field. Never played them. But we did recruit against them in the past, and we will recruit against them in the future.

Did anyone look at that list? No way to know the speeds/skill levels of the players but let's look at offensive line - the heart of any team

2013 Bucknell OL scholarship recruits:

6'3 260
6'3 290
6'4 280
6'7 300

Colgate
6'3" 295
6"4 270

Fordham
6'3" 300
6'7" 295
6'4" 275

Etc.

There are lots of basketball people around. Jim Calhoun was very vocal in the past that the gap between the top schools recruits and the not-top school recruits in basketball was getting smaller and smaller, and that is the reason why it's difficult to advance, and that eventually a #1 seed will lose to a #16.

Why should there be a difference in football?

It's food for thought, any which way you look at it. Toss it aside as meaningless if you want, or don't....but if you choose to play ostrich and bury your head in the sand too, y'all free to do that too.

THis will have an impact on UCONN in the future, and if it's ignored, that impact could be bad. If it's addressed well, it could be made to be a strong benefit.

Prototype garbage.

 

[sportsart]

Psst....rumor has it Foley is the new OL coach and the players are loving it. Apparently they may be going back to some old time smash mouth football (some, not all)

OK...carry on.