OT: Big Dig and lessons that can be applied to Hartford.

[Ha Who]

Beauty's and priorities remain in the eyes of the beholders. One man's replacement / fix of a botched or purported end-of-life project is another's enhancement. With limited federal transportation $ available, minimal Congressional influence, and low growth versus some larger and bigger electoral states, the question of federal and in-state transportation priorities similarly remains.

I hate government spending but this one is not debatable. Ask the folks who went over the Miamis river bridge. Or maybe you are an engineering professor at FAU.

 

[CTMike]

It's massively expensive. No debating that. But cutting corners is what got us this tangled mess of infrastructure through Hartford. I'd like to see someone have the guts to do it right now so that we are set for 100 years than just do ok for 50.

 

[Drew]

All these damn highways and the best we got is a two lane road to Storrs

 

[DarthGrumpy]

As a slow growth state way unimportant in national politics and with zero important, influential Senators and Congressmen, obtaining big federal $ will be a massive challenge for Hartford both in state and nationally. Where's an I-91/I-84 enhancement rank compared with ever continuing I-95 Greenwich/ New Haven enhancements, commuter rail from New Haven to/from Hartford, ongoing Waterbury I-84/ Rt 8 clustermess enhancement, Waterbury / Danbury I-84 widening?

I-84 is much bigger than Hartford as its a major transportation link (and bottleneck) between the country's largest metro in NYC and the 10th largest in Boston. Business interests will push to find a solution. Yet, I agree money will be an issue due to the problems in Hartford and DC.

 

[uconnfan68]

I'm sure you are right, but take a look on Google maps or Bing maps. There are some areas that aren't developed that seem to be well placed for a loop, perhaps due to abandoned plans in the past. For example, exit 55 on 84, seems overbuilt for its current use and is pointed right at 91. Existing connectors could be used to carry traffic into Hartford and may be sufficient since it would be only Hartford bound traffic and not through traffic. (Of course you'd need a bridge across the river which I'd assume is pretty costly compared to just putting a surface level highway in it's current foot print.)

Regarding the surface level highway, one of the stated goals the project is to reconnect Hartford to the waterfront. A limited access highway, built on the current footprint doesn't do that.

Many of those seemingly undeveloped areas are simply very rich people's yards. That's why nothing was ever done to fix the mess. Even now an alternative to going through Hartford would have been to extend Rt. 8 to the Mass Pike... and that never happened either. I just don't understand why there is nothing between Hartford and Providence, going near Storrs. Just no foresight by anyone it seems.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

Many of those seemingly undeveloped areas are simply very rich people's yards. That's why nothing was ever done to fix the mess. Even now an alternative to going through Hartford would have been to extend Rt. 8 to the Mass Pike... and that never happened either. I just don't understand why there is nothing between Hartford and Providence, going near Storrs. Just no foresight by anyone it seems.

Agree that a highway running between Hartford and Providence would have been beneficial to a lot of folks, including UConn. It (I-84) was planned and small portions were built (I-384 in Manchester, US 6 By-Pass in Willimantic, that spur off of I-395 south of Danielson, and the US 6 Highway portion in RI). The only 'solid' story I read is that RI blocked it due to the highway's planned route over the Scituate Resivoir. in CT, I suspect that the highway in less populated Eastern CT was a lower priority that other highways and by time it was I-84's turn, public sentiment had turned against interstate highways and it lost steam and funding. That issue likely explains why Rte 11 ends in the middle of nowhere instead of connecting Rte 2 to I-95 along the coast.

 

[Da_Aisijimo_Gou]

I-84 is much bigger than Hartford as its a major transportation link (and bottleneck) between the country's largest metro in NYC and the 10th largest in Boston. Business interests will push to find a solution. Yet, I agree money will be an issue due to the problems in Hartford and DC.

Yup, a suggested non-debatable enhancement, fix, re-build or whatever likely makes sense for the reasons you cite. As you appear to acknowledge and others inexplicably may miss, conveniently ignore, or just poo poo, other in-state and other state's purportedly non-debatable enhancements, fixes, replacements, or however people paint a transportation project will also lobby business interests and battle for the same limited $.

Within CT, let alone in other states growing faster and of greater political power, is Hartford's mess even at or near the top of economic, driver safety, and transportation efficiency lists? Probably on the list, but quite possibly for the specific NY-Boston transportation reasons you cite as much or more so than for in-state Connecticut priorities or even reasonable safety concerns. However, all the better if whatever may be done goes B1G for UCONN.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

It's massively expensive. No debating that. But cutting corners is what got us this tangled mess of infrastructure through Hartford. I'd like to see someone have the guts to do it right now so that we are set for 100 years than just do ok for 50.

Long term transportation planning as been missing from urban development across the US in most cases for decades.

By where I live, the Tappan Zee Bridge is a classic example. It was built in the 1950's at the widest point on the Hudson River not because that is where the engineers said it could be built; but, because the NYNJ Port Authority has exclusive rights over Hudson River crossing within 25 miles or so of Battery Park and the Port Authority and the NY Thruway Authority could not get along. The bridge was also done on the cheap due to limited funding ($81 million) and a steel shortage caused by the Korean War. The bridge, which opened in 1955 was was expected to last 50 years (the Brooklyn Bridge is now +130 years old).

Jump to 2007, 52 years into the bridge's 50 year expected life span, 138,000 vehicles per day were traveling across this bridge that was supposed to carry 80,000 per day maximum. After the I-35W bridge collapse in Minneapolis, politicians finally decided it should be replaced. After years of arguing, the replacement bridge began construction in 2013 (if you go over it now, the world's strongest floating crane is on-site now and it is impressive, can lift entire bridge sections, it was build for the new SF Bay Bridge and sailed over last year) and the new bridge will partially open in late 2016 and fully open in 2018. For $4 billion, we will get a bridge that should last 100 years with 8 lanes (4 lanes of traffic each way) instead of 7 (3 lanes each way, 1 flex lane) and a pedestrian sidewalk. No dedicated bus lanes, no commuter rail linking Rockland County with the MTA Hudson line and Grand Central. So the new bridge will not solve today's current traffic issues never mind future growth. While adding pair of rails to the bridge would have added $500 million to it, at least that would have shown long-term thinking.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

Yup, a suggested non-debatable enhancement, fix, re-build or whatever likely makes sense for the reasons you cite. As you appear to acknowledge and others inexplicably may miss, conveniently ignore, or just poo poo, other in-state and other state's purportedly non-debatable enhancements, fixes, replacements, or however people paint a transportation project will also lobby business interests and battle for the same limited $.

I-84 will get done. Not sure if the commuter rail between Springfield and New Haven will though. Just no money.

States with higher growth and more revenue do have the advantage of bypassing DC and dealing with issues on their own. NC is working on the southern half of the loop highway around Raleigh without asking for Federal dollars because it is taking forever and the growth in the area is outpacing current infrastructure capacity. Thus, NC is going to build the rest of the loop as a toll road between I-40 and US 264, which is why it will b called NC Rte 540 instead of I-540.

Looping back to the original issue, the Big Dig, while massively expensive, a portion of which can be pegged to stupidity and graft, was a massively complex engineering feet that people learned a lot from. Lessons learned and new tools developed from the Big Dig have allowed the Alaska viaduct tunnel replacement in Seattle to be build for $4.25 billion instead of $6.0 billion in part due to the development of a 57-foot-diameter drill named Bertha.

 

[DudeOfCT]

I-84 will get done. Not sure if the commuter rail between Springfield and New Haven will though. Just no money.

States with higher growth and more revenue do have the advantage of bypassing DC and dealing with issues on their own. NC is working on the southern half of the loop highway around Raleigh without asking for Federal dollars because it is taking forever and the growth in the area is outpacing current infrastructure capacity. Thus, NC is going to build the rest of the loop as a toll road between I-40 and US 264, which is why it will b called NC Rte 540 instead of I-540.

Looping back to the original issue, the Big Dig, while massively expensive, a portion of which can be pegged to stupidity and graft, was a massively complex engineering feet that people learned a lot from. Lessons learned and new tools developed from the Big Dig have allowed the Alaska viaduct tunnel replacement in Seattle to be build for $4.25 billion instead of $6.0 billion in part due to the development of a 57-foot-diameter drill named Bertha.

Funding for the Springfield New Haven Rail is complete on the CT side.
http://www.nhhsrail.com

 

[Da_Aisijimo_Gou]

Lessons learned and new tools developed from the Big Dig have allowed the Alaska viaduct tunnel replacement in Seattle to be build for $4.25 billion instead of $6.0 billion in part due to the development of a 57-foot-diameter drill named Bertha.

A bit about Bertha

 

[epark88]

Many of those seemingly undeveloped areas are simply very rich people's yards. That's why nothing was ever done to fix the mess. Even now an alternative to going through Hartford would have been to extend Rt. 8 to the Mass Pike... and that never happened either. I just don't understand why there is nothing between Hartford and Providence, going near Storrs. Just no foresight by anyone it seems.

Here's a little insight into the I-84/86/384 issue - it's about 1:02:00 in...