OT: Best multi-sport male athlete ever?

[JB123]

Clearly Jim Brown. He was the best ever in two sports and played very well at the major college level in two more.

A good case can be made for Brown. It really comes down to how lacrosse gets valued. If you treat it like the major sports, that helps him a ton. If you treat it very differently (on the ground that its relative lack of media attention means that fewer great athletes choose to play it as compared with football, baseball, or basketball), then that cuts the other way when comparing him with people like Bo and Deion.

Brown was one of the best football players ever, though it's worth noting that he certainly has a lot of competition for the rank of #1 (e.g., Jerry Rice and a bunch of quarterbacks). He was better at his top sport than were the other major contenders for best multi-sport athlete -- much better, in some cases.

As for lacrosse, Brown may have been the best player in the nation in his senior year of college. That's a very far cry from "best ever" status, in my view. To be sure, lots of people throw that term around in reference to his lacrosse days; but as great as he was that year, his overall achievements in the sport don't match such lofty statements. This happens a lot with elite multi-sport competitors. Often, people say how amazing they were at their second-best sport, but the numbers tell a somewhat less ecstatic story. Don't get me wrong: Brown was a GREAT lacrosse player. Not being the best ever is obviously no knock on him whatsoever.

I think a fair assessment of his achievements would be something like the following. He was one of the greatest players ever in a major sport (football), probably the best player in the nation during his senior year of college in another sport (lacrosse), and a quality college athlete in track and basketball. How that stacks up to Thorpe, Jackson, Sanders, et al. is a topic on which reasonable minds can differ.

 

[SVCBeercats]

Wilt Chamberlain is in the Basketball Hall of Fame, and the Volleyball Hall of Fame. So, name another athlete in two different HOF for two different professional sports.

Seems to me some Boneyarder mentioned the Old Coach was in the Water Skiing and Snow Skiing Halls of Fame. If anyone really remembers this correctly, please speak up.

 

[meyers7]

Seems to me some Boneyarder mentioned the Old Coach was in the Water Skiing and Snow Skiing Halls of Fame. If anyone really remembers this correctly, please speak up.

Yes Warren was in both. He talked about working with Archery stuff/Archers too.

He was quite accomplished.

Warren Witherell, founder of first U.S. ski academy | International Skiing History Association

 

[Los24]

I'd have to vote:

1) Bo Jackson
2) Jim Thorpe
3) Jackie Robinson

Bo Jackson was a phenomenal football AND baseball player. As someone said earlier, if his pro career hadn't been cut short, this would have been a short discussion.

Don't forget all the sports that Nike caught him doing

 

[SVCBeercats]

Wilt Chamberlain is in the Basketball Hall of Fame, and the Volleyball Hall of Fame. So, name another athlete in two different HOF for two different professional sports.

Asked and answered!
Duke Kahanamoku – Surfing Hall of Fame, Swimming Hall of Fame, and U.S. Olympic Hall of Fame
Jim Thorpe - Pro Football Hall of Fame and United States Olympic Hall of Fame
Jim Brown - Pro Football Hall of Fame and National Lacrosse Hall of Fame
Bob Hayes - Pro Football Hall of Fame and United States Olympic Hall of Fame
Babe Didrikson Zaharias - World Golf Hall of Fame and United States Olympic Hall of Fame
Walter Ray Williams Jr. – Pro Bowling Hall of Fame and World Horseshoe Throwing Hall of Fame
Cumberland Posey –Baseball Hall of Fame and Basketball Hall of Fame
Cesare Rubini –Basketball Hall of Fame and International Swimming Hall of Fame

 

[SVCBeercats]

He was quite accomplished.

I should say so!!! And these are just for water skiing!!!

Warren Witherell can claim more firsts than any other water skier in the history of the sport.

He was the first to jump 100 feet - at the Nationals in 1954. He was the first to use the double wake cut in the Nationals - that same one, as a desperation tactic on borrowed jumpers, after his hid been stolen the night before. He was the first trick skier to complete both passes on a single ski - to win the event at the '55 Nationals in Lakeland, Fla. He was the first, and possibly the only, slalom skier to run short line, six at 18 feet off, on a square back ski. He was the first to run a perfect six buoys at 36 feet off the line at 34 miles per hour in 1961, the last year before the men's maximum boat speed was raised to 36 m.p.h. He was the first, and may remain the only, skier to win national slalom championships over a span of 28 years. And the list could go on.

Witherell, who is headmaster of the Burke Mountain Academy in East Burke, VT, learned to water ski in 1939 at the age of four on Lake George in upstate New York. He entered his first tournament, the Eastern Regionals, in 1952 to begin a competitive career that is unique in the annals of the sport.

His lanky, six foot three frame and powerful upper body strength have him a natural edge on the slalom course before the advent of the tapered ski and the increased boat speed put more emphasis on finesse and precise timing. Witherell won national slalom titles in 1953, '54 and '55. (He was second in '52 to Mexico's Emilio Zamudio at a time when foreign skiers were permitted to ski in the U.S. Nationals.) He won slalom in the fist Masters Tournament in 1958. His personal records show that from 1953 until his retirement from active tournament skiing in 1968, Witherell was beaten in slalom only five times in more than 100 tournaments. Ten years later, he came back to ski in senior competition and in 1981, he won the Veterans National slalom title with a record run of four buoys with 38 feet off the line.

Witherell's first 100-footer in jumping did not get in the record book. The rule required a new record to exceed the old by at least two feet, so his leap in the Laconia, NH Nationals was scored as a 99-foot tie of the record. But little matter, because Dick Binette and Butch Rosenberg followed him with leaps of 102 and 103 feet, respectively, and Witherell raised the record again to 106 feet two weeks later in the New England Championships. All accomplished with the double wake cut which later campaigned to have outlawed because he considered it dangerous.

In tricks, Witherell was one of the pioneers in the use of toe turns, employing them in his 1953 Nationals victory at Long Beach, CA, and coupling them with a one-ski 540 off the ramp to win the world title later that year in Toronto.

But Warren Witherell has contributed more that just his skiing to the organized sport. During the critical development period of the 1950's he was active on the Rules, Rating, Judges and Tournament committees of the American Water Ski Association. And he has continued to use his ability to teach, write and serve as an articulate spokesman for the sport

 

[TitleTown]

Bo Jackson, hands down! If he didn't get hurt he would have been a HOFer in 2 different sports!

 

[Irishfan]

Just for the fun of it CT's own Joan Joyce (along with Babe Didrikson) are the greatest American multi sport female athletes.

But the best female athlete ever was probably Caitlyn Jenner. Hell she won the Olympic decathlon.

 

[Bigpetunia]

Bo was (past tense only in the athletic sense) the most freakishly gifted athlete in this country’s history. We know, of course, about his football and baseball exploits. But his track and field accomplishments defy credible analysis... he was a decathlon champion whose 40 yd dash in the NFL combine has never been equalled. The avascular necrosis of his left femoral condyle will go down as the most expensive sports injury of all time. Many of the names mentioned in this thread were truly extraordinary...but Bo?...one of a kind!

 

[JB123]

If [Bo Jackson] didn't get hurt he would have been a HOFer in 2 different sports!

Not even close.

Bo never scored more than 6 touchdowns in a season in the NFL, and there was only one season in which he accounted for even 800 yards from scrimmage.

In baseball, his greatest achievement was once finishing 10th in the AL MVP voting -- a feat from which he regressed the next year, which was all before his injury. He had low on-base percentages, missed dozens of games every year, and played a non-vital defensive position (i.e., not catcher, shortstop, second base, or center field). His best attribute was slugging, but only once did he crack the AL's top 10 in slugging percentage for a season.

Based on his pre-injury performance, there is no reason to believe he was going to be anything close to a Hall of Famer in either MLB or the NFL.

 

[JB123]

[Bo Jackson's] track and field accomplishments defy credible analysis.

No they don't.

he was a decathlon champion

Really? Do you mean in high school competitions? Lots of people were champions in all sorts of things in high school competitions.

whose 40 yd dash in the NFL combine has never been equalled.

Sort of. Bo's record is unofficial because it occurred before they started using electronic timers.

* * *

Look, Bo Jackson's actual achievements are plenty good enough. He was a Heisman trophy winner who went on to play well in two major pro sports at the same time. That sentence isn't true of anyone else in history. There's no need to make inflated, inaccurate claims about him. His case can be made very well with the truth.

 

[Aluminny69]

All the usual suspects, but #6 is a surprise!

 

[Los24]

No they don't.



Really? Do you mean in high school competitions? Lots of people were champions in all sorts of things in high school competitions.



Sort of. Bo's record is unofficial because it occurred before they started using electronic timers.

* * *

Look, Bo Jackson's actual achievements are plenty good enough. He was a Heisman trophy winner who went on to play well in two major pro sports at the same time. That sentence isn't true of anyone else in history. There's no need to make inflated, inaccurate claims about him. His case can be made very well with the truth.

You left out how good he was in Techno Bowl...

Bo could run down fly balls, had a cannon for an arm and hit 500 foot home runs. He can jump high, run fast and bowl people over. He is a legend regardless of his final stats. Besides who else has these stars testifying on his behave: Also, if you ever heard his peers talk about him (which is more valuable than us fans,) there was no better athlete.

 

[JB123]

You left out how good he was in Techno Bowl...

That's true.

Bo could run down fly balls, had a cannon for an arm and hit 500 foot home runs. He can jump high, run fast and bowl people over. He is a legend regardless of his final stats.

As fans of sports, it's thrilling to see certain types of awe-inspiring plays. And if someone wants to value those plays in terms of their own preferences in how they appreciate sports, more power to them.

However, in the context of asking who was the best multi-sport athlete, I think that being good at a sport is defined by how much you help your team win (or, in an individual sport, by how much you win). And spectacular athletic feats don't always help a team win as much as mundane ones do. A baseball player who takes tons of walks, for example, might well be helping his team win more than someone who does things that are more spectacular but less valuable.

Also, if you ever heard his peers talk about him (which is more valuable than us fans,) there was no better athlete.

Peers said many great things about Bo, but also about the other guys discussed in this thread. (I also happen to prefer well-conceived stats to peer assessments as a measure of value, but there's no need to debate that here.)

 

[SVCBeercats]

Coincidentally, during yesterday's Yankees game, the trivia question was something like:

"What Toronto Blue Jay player from 1981 was also an All-Star, two-time champion, and a general manager?"

A trick question that was answered here first! (SVCBeercats, you work for YES or what?!)

Also made the all-rookie team

 

[Bigpetunia]

No they don't.



Really? Do you mean in high school competitions? Lots of people were champions in all sorts of things in high school competitions.



Sort of. Bo's record is unofficial because it occurred before they started using electronic timers.

* * *

Look, Bo Jackson's actual achievements are plenty good enough. He was a Heisman trophy winner who went on to play well in two major pro sports at the same time. That sentence isn't true of anyone else in history. There's no need to make inflated, inaccurate claims about him. His case can be made very well with the truth.

I have made no inaccurate claims about Bo. But I'm glad you're around to play the role of lie detector and fact checker...

 

[Aluminny69]

Asked and answered!
Duke Kahanamoku – Surfing Hall of Fame, Swimming Hall of Fame, and U.S. Olympic Hall of Fame
Jim Thorpe - Pro Football Hall of Fame and United States Olympic Hall of Fame
Jim Brown - Pro Football Hall of Fame and National Lacrosse Hall of Fame
Bob Hayes - Pro Football Hall of Fame and United States Olympic Hall of Fame
Babe Didrikson Zaharias - World Golf Hall of Fame and United States Olympic Hall of Fame
Walter Ray Williams Jr. – Pro Bowling Hall of Fame and World Horseshoe Throwing Hall of Fame
Cumberland Posey –Baseball Hall of Fame and Basketball Hall of Fame
Cesare Rubini –Basketball Hall of Fame and International Swimming Hall of Fame

Well, I did specify PROFESSIONAL, so I'm not sure all or any of these qualify.

 

[Aluminny69]

And much to Jackie Robinson's credit, he had to deal with extreme overt racism, paving the way for those other athletes listed here... So, there's that.

 

[JB123]

I have made no inaccurate claims about Bo. But I'm glad you're around to play the role of lie detector and fact checker...

Those are totally fair things to say, and I apologize for being curt in my responses to your post. My early posts in this thread were more measured in tone, and then when the same strong statements (which I believe were misleading) kept being made, I decided to try a more terse approach. But the downside of that is impoliteness, which you had every right to call me out on.

As to the substance of this, here are a few points. First, I'm definitely not accusing anyone of lying. I just think that sometimes people get carried away with their image of an athlete, and then their image distorts the reality that's still impressive but more complicated and less exciting. Second, a fact-checker isn't so terrible, is it? Otherwise people may unintentionally say things that mislead others. Third, I don't think I'm off-base to say that your claims about Bo may well have been misleading. Winning a statewide decathlon competition in high school just isn't close to winning, say, a national competition in college -- much less winning at the truly highest level, which Jim Thorpe did, as discussed repeatedly in this thread. You didn't say what level of competition it was for Bo -- so you're right to note that your statement wasn't inaccurate -- but immediately after your decathlon statement you wrote that Bo's track and field accomplishments "defy credible analysis." I don't see why winning high-school decathlon competitions defies credible analysis.

If you're going to express strong opinions on a message board, people may point out facts that qualify, contextualize, or even contradict those opinions. I think that's a good thing, not a bad one, although I grant that it's easy to forget to do it nicely.

 

[SVCBeercats]

Well, I did specify PROFESSIONAL, so I'm not sure all or any of these qualify.

Pretty sure they all do qualify as professionals. You are just trying to slide out from under your lack of research and doing the usual fan thing of jumping to conclusions and assumptions. Not to mention refusing to admit to a serious lack of sports knowledge. Surely you know PRO is short for professional ... correct?! So you may question Babe Didrikson Zaharias who dominated the Women's Professional Golf Association and later the Ladies Professional Golf Association, of which she was a founding member. So what about Cumberland Willis Posey, Jr. who was an American baseball player, manager, and team owner in the Negro leagues, as well as a professional basketball player and team owner. So next point of ignorance is Cesare Rubini who was an Italian professional basketball player and coach, and a water polo player. He was considered to be one of the greatest European basketball coaches of all time.

You are welcome for me doing your research and educating you.

 

[meyers7]

Pretty sure they all do qualify as professionals. You are just trying to slide out from under your lack of research and doing the usual fan thing of jumping to conclusions and assumptions. Not to mention refusing to admit to a serious lack of sports knowledge. Surely you know PRO is short for professional ... correct?! So you may question Babe Didrikson Zaharias who dominated the Women's Professional Golf Association and later the Ladies Professional Golf Association, of which she was a founding member. So what about Cumberland Willis Posey, Jr. who was an American baseball player, manager, and team owner in the Negro leagues, as well as a professional basketball player and team owner. So next point of ignorance is Cesare Rubini who was an Italian professional basketball player and coach, and a water polo player. He was considered to be one of the greatest European basketball coaches of all time.

You are welcome for me doing your research and educating you.

Maybe you should do a little research yourself. Surely you know PRO is short for professional. Jim Thorpe was not inducted into the Olympic HOF for his Professional Track Career. I don't think he even had one. Same for Didrikson, Kahanamoku and Hayes. They were inducted as amateurs for competing in the Olympics. Jim Brown was inducted into the Lacrosse HOF for his time at Syracuse, again amateur.

Hope you don't mind me butting in and "educating" you.

 

[TitleTown]

Not even close.

Bo never scored more than 6 touchdowns in a season in the NFL, and there was only one season in which he accounted for even 800 yards from scrimmage.

In baseball, his greatest achievement was once finishing 10th in the AL MVP voting -- a feat from which he regressed the next year, which was all before his injury. He had low on-base percentages, missed dozens of games every year, and played a non-vital defensive position (i.e., not catcher, shortstop, second base, or center field). His best attribute was slugging, but only once did he crack the AL's top 10 in slugging percentage for a season.

Based on his pre-injury performance, there is no reason to believe he was going to be anything close to a Hall of Famer in either MLB or the NFL.

He played half the season because of baseball! Double his stats and then see what you get!

 

[JB123]

He played half the season because of baseball! Double his stats and then see what you get!

You said that Bo Jackson would have been a Hall of Famer in two different sports if he hadn't gotten injured. He actually would have been a Hall of Famer in neither pro football nor pro baseball.

He wouldn't have made it in baseball because he simply wasn't good enough. It had nothing to do with football: He didn't miss baseball games to play football.

It's conceivable that he could have made the Hall in pro football if he hadn't played baseball, but if he had done that, then we wouldn't be discussing him in this thread. In that scenario -- which is the only scenario that would have given him a shot at the NFL Hall of Fame -- he obviously couldn't have made the baseball Hall of Fame because he wouldn't have been playing baseball at all.