OT: Academic Fraud at Notre Dame

[msf22b]

3 Starting football players dismissed.
Fox/Yahoo compares the situ to North Carolina.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/notre-dame-reportedly-investigating-football-174338579.html

 

[mhshuskies]

Don't forget the fraud perpetrated by the nd womens basketball team that they were a championship caliber contender last season.

 

[Lynx23]

No one should kid themselves; this stuff goes on at every school. At least Notre Dame is investigating academic fraud among its athletes and doing something about it. I don't see any kind of coverup here. Notre Dame suspended its top quarterback for the season last year for the same reason. Athletes at other schools have done far worse and been back on the sidelines within weeks.

 

[Zorro]

So far sounds as if ND was going about it correctly and openly, but who knows?

 

[huskeynut]

You have to give ND credit for going public with this and taking action. Its more than can be said for some schools (UNC anyone).

It will depend on how deep this academic fraud goes.

 

[genosguy]

3 Starting football players dismissed.
Fox/Yahoo compares the situ to North Carolina.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/notre-dame-reportedly-investigating-football-174338579.html

Hey ---they are on the Honor system-----Yes your Honor, No Your Honor..

 

[John Glass]

No one should kid themselves; this stuff goes on at every school. At least Notre Dame is investigating academic fraud among its athletes and doing something about it. I don't see any kind of coverup here. Notre Dame suspended its top quarterback for the season last year for the same reason. Athletes at other schools have done far worse and been back on the sidelines within weeks.

I agree, I know for a fact that assistant basketball coaches write papers for student athletes at a large east coast school

 

[Vowelguy]

Don't forget the fraud perpetrated by the nd womens basketball team that they were a championship caliber contender last season.

Unnecessary.
Hands down they were the 2nd best team in the country.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Noteworthy that the South Bend Tribune says the academic fraud is on the scale of that found at UNC. That is seriously embedded, wide spread fraud! Couple of Hail Mary's ain't fixing this.

 

[msf22b]

i always get nervous when auspices investigate themselves.

 

[ctfjr]

What would Touchdown Jesus say?

 

[JS]

What would Touchdown Jesus say?

"You know the commandments: . . . you shall not defraud . . . "
Mark 10:19 (New International Version)

", , , even to get touchdowns."
(JS Version).​

 

[HoopsFan21]

ND should get the death penalty. I'm tired of cheating schools getting off lightly. If the NCAA can crush Penn State for criminal activity that didn't involve student-athletes or cheating, then they can start cracking down on programs where student-athletes are committing academic fraud. Meanwhile, the poor Huskies get sanctioned because of a retroactively applied APR that they self-reported. I mean WTF? This is maddening and very frustrating.

 

[Bayareahusky]

I do applaud ND for toughening up on its academic enforcement..... I mean how many years did I see infractions of different kinds met with "we are sitting Patrick McDougall down for the first series of plays"..... sort of response..... I was happy they acted last year with Golson..... let the young man go home, think over his life priorities, and then have him figure out if he wants to reapply to the school..... and for this, I wish him well.....

Yes, HF21, it is apparent that as time goes on, that Penn State really got the shaft.... I never really figured out in depth (I do know why, just not at a deep level) why the PSU President went right along with Emmert's sanctions..... the school got hosed..... when compared to other situations..... and Joe's reputation got severely tarnished.... he was not squeeky clean in this, we know, but it is apparent he got slammed mercilessly

And we all know about UConn...... Although I don't like the way it came off post game celebration, but I really cannot blame Shabazz for unloading on the NCAA and Emmert..... what better stage (literally) was there? Retroactively applied...... yes! Makes me sick...... and what are they going to do with North Carolina ..... which they have elected to pass on once..... now they are back in there doing their investigating.... let's see!

 

[HoopsFan21]

I do applaud ND for toughening up on its academic enforcement..... I mean how many years did I see infractions of different kinds met with "we are sitting Patrick McDougall down for the first series of plays"..... sort of response..... I was happy they acted last year with Golson..... let the young man go home, think over his life priorities, and then have him figure out if he wants to reapply to the school..... and for this, I wish him well.....

Yes, HF21, it is apparent that as time goes on, that Penn State really got the shaft.... I never really figured out in depth (I do know why, just not at a deep level) why the PSU President went right along with Emmert's sanctions..... the school got hosed..... when compared to other situations..... and Joe's reputation got severely tarnished.... he was not squeeky clean in this, we know, but it is apparent he got slammed mercilessly

And we all know about UConn. Although I don't like the way it came off post game celebration, but I really cannot blame Shabazz for unloading on the NCAA and Emmert..... what better stage (literally) was there? Retroactively applied. yes! Makes me sick. and what are they going to do with North Carolina ..... which they have elected to pass on once..... now they are back in there doing their investigating.... let's see!

With respect to the Penn State thing, you wanna hear something ironic? This isn't getting much press coverage, but the NCAA Executive Committee just passed guidelines for how sexual assault cases should be handled by member institutions, and one of the rules was that coaches should not get involved or impede or interfere in the investigation of sexual assault cases. I mean, isn't that basically why they hammered Paterno and the Penn State football team? For Paterno not personally being involved or investigating that child sex abuse case in the shower enough? When it comes to the NCAA I swear you can't make this stuff up. When I think about the UConn situation I get so angry about what they did, and I was so glad to see Shabazz call out that smug little jerk Emmert on national TV.

 

[mhshuskies]

Unnecessary.
Hands down they were the 2nd best team in the country.

Unnecessary, but funny!

 

[ndmb]

Unnecessary, but funny!

I thought it was funny.

 

[Bayareahusky]

Yes, HF21, that IS ironic.... wow.... i hadn't heard this.... thanks for the heads up..... NCAA goes down a slippery slope trying to tighten up something that is a complex issue..... and try to put it out front..... in an era when some huge and well known institutions are themselves still trying to hide sexual crimes at all costs...... NCAA.... I see what they are trying to do..... and I could easily write MY proposed solution..... but i will just let it go and say "it won't work"

Yeah, Paterno.... this thing they hung him for was a sex crime, but the constant fault I have seen with him over the years.... and it has been documented.....is the insistance he always had to keep discipline within his program and never allow it to get to the university level..... and of course he had the personal power to do this

 

[Beemer]

Wow. So much for Notre Dame's squeaky clean reputation with respect to academics.... As for the death penalty the NCAA has not lowered the boom on any university since SMU back in the 80s. The school has never recovered from that and I believe that is why the NCAA has never repeated that action. Finally I have zero sympathy for Penn State. The administration, Paterno and his staff all knew about Sandusky and not one of them did anything to prevent him from abusing those young boys. Indeed Paterno protected Sandusky from having to answer for his evil crimes. IMO PSU got exactly what it deserved.

 

[cabbie191]

Yes, HF21, that IS ironic.... wow.... i hadn't heard this.... thanks for the heads up..... NCAA goes down a slippery slope trying to tighten up something that is a complex issue..... and try to put it out front..... in an era when some huge and well known institutions are themselves still trying to hide s e xual crimes at all costs. NCAA.... I see what they are trying to do..... and I could easily write MY proposed solution..... but i will just let it go and say "it won't work"

Yeah, Paterno.... this thing they hung him for was a s e x crime, but the constant fault I have seen with him over the years.... and it has been documented.....is the insistance he always had to keep discipline within his program and never allow it to get to the university level..... and of course he had the personal power to do this

We all realize that big time athletics, both institutionally and as individuals, get a lot of passes in our society. But I would hope that violations of criminal law, which is what got Paterno and other Penn State officials as well as the university as an institution in trouble when they failed to report the abuse, would hold more weight than any policies the NCAA has in place.

As a bit of an aside, I wonder if any Boneyarders with a legal background could answer this question: What is the basis of the legal standing for NCAA rules and the penalties assessed when those rules are broken? Civil law, contract law? Is there a difference between the two?

 

[HoopsFan21]

Wow. So much for Notre Dame's squeaky clean reputation with respect to academics.... As for the death penalty the NCAA has not lowered the boom on any university since SMU back in the 80s. The school has never recovered from that and I believe that is why the NCAA has never repeated that action. Finally I have zero sympathy for Penn State. The administration, Paterno and his staff all knew about Sandusky and not one of them did anything to prevent him from abusing those young boys. Indeed Paterno protected Sandusky from having to answer for his evil crimes. IMO PSU got exactly what it deserved.

I disagree. No NCAA rules were broken in the Penn State case. The NCAA should not have been involved. It's a very slippery slope and the NCAA established a dangerous precedent: it can punish a school for any crime that happens on its property, even crimes that occurred more than a decade ago, committed by a former employee or otherwise. Inconsistent enforcement is one of many reasons the P5 will eventually break away from the NCAA entirely.

By the way, I unlike most people that want to cast stones at Penn State, actually read the Freeh Report when it first came out. The evidence is shaky at best if you're going to try and claim there was some nefarious plot to cover up and protect Sandusky. Sandusky hadn't even worked at the school for years when the whole shower incident occurred which was the only abuse case that actually happened on school property as far as I can tell. Oh yeah, the rape charge against Sandusky in that locker room shower that set everyone off was ultimately dismissed along with two other charges.

I can't say I would have done anything differently than Paterno did, not to mention the man was in his 70s when this went down. If someone came up to me and told me they saw a former employee in the shower with a young boy, I probably would tell my boss and let him deal with it, or if the person telling me really believes they witnessed a crime I would encourage them to call the police.

Furthermore why did the NCAA punish Penn State so quickly? This is the same organization that takes years to investigate simple things like whether or not a coach text messaged a recruit more than what was allowed, never mind something complicated like a child sex abuse scandal. It all feels like the NCAA wanted a pound of flesh to prove they were still relevant. The three administrators accused of the cover up haven't even had their trials yet, so why the rush to punish the school? No due process allowed? I think what happened at Penn State was an injustice. Plenty of other cases of crimes at schools, some that actually involve the athletic programs, and yet no NCAA sanctions because of them.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

I'm going to steer relatively clear, with a couple of quick comments:

- regarding academic fraud, it is a simple term covering a lot of possibilities. To a certain degree, it probably does go on quite a bit, but there is a big difference between a legitimate, if not very useful course with fairly easy grading that athletes might be directed to take versus a non-existent course, tutors writing papers, etc. I blame the NCAA for bringing this issue on themselves for allowing the relaxing the standards for admission for athletes.

- I'm one of many who thought Paterno, in particular, got slammed on, as I've never seen evidence he personally was involved in a cover-up, although there were certainly employees at the school who did.

- To the extent that the NCAA thinks that coaches should not investigate and just pass it on to superiors, that sounds correct. As a former operational auditor working in conjunction with a security department, I was extremely limited in employee fraud investigations. I wasn't limited from examining evidence but I was limited in who I could discuss it with and in dealing with the suspect(s). The last thing you want is a non-expert messing with a potential criminal investigation.

 

[Beemer]

IMO the NCAA had to act quickly- this involved the abuse of children by a man connected with one of the greatest college football coaches who was still actively coaching a top program. Perhaps they acted in haste but waiting would have been far worse. I don't believe there was an overt conspiracy between the PSU administration, Paterno & his staff to cover up Sandusky's crimes. IMO it was simply understood by all concerned that is was much more important to protect PSU's cash cow football program, its reputation and the reputation of the university than stopping Sandusky. So they all looked the other way knowing that Sandusky's behavior would continue as it did. And that damns them forever in my eyes and a lot of other people's.

 

[CL82]

No one should kid themselves; this stuff goes on at every school. At least Notre Dame is investigating academic fraud among its athletes and doing something about it. I don't see any kind of coverup here. Notre Dame suspended its top quarterback for the season last year for the same reason. Athletes at other schools have done far worse and been back on the sidelines within weeks.

It is the great shame of the modern era that whenever someone breaches a law, rule or norm, the kneejerk reaction is "oh well it happens everywhere." I sure as heck believe that there is not institutional cheating at UConn. If there is, we ought to fire all involved.

 

[HoopsFan21]

IMO the NCAA had to act quickly- this involved the abuse of children by a man connected with one of the greatest college football coaches who was still actively coaching a top program. Perhaps they acted in haste but waiting would have been far worse. I don't believe there was an overt conspiracy between the PSU administration, Paterno & his staff to cover up Sandusky's crimes. IMO it was simply understood by all concerned that is was much more important to protect PSU's cash cow football program, its reputation and the reputation of the university than stopping Sandusky. So they all looked the other way knowing that Sandusky's behavior would continue as it did. And that damns them forever in my eyes and a lot of other people's.

We don't have all the facts about what happened, and I think you have the tinfoil hat understanding of what happened, or at least the version the media wants you to have so you buy their newspapers, read their websites, and watch their shows. It's also a shame that you want to rule by emotion with the type of crime determining how quickly one is punished.

My guess is there was no cover up or conspiracy or intent to protect Sandusky. The three administrators awaiting trial simply were told by McQueary it was horseplay in the shower and therefore felt they did not need to call the police. If McQueary did witness something as heinous as child abuse in that shower, why did McQueary still maintain a relationship with Sandusky after the incident? If you consider the possibility that McQueary didn't actually see anything that night it all makes sense from him not doing anything to stop it, to the three administrators not understanding what supposedly occurred, to McQueary golfing with Sandusky and consulting with him about recruits. McQueary's story has changed every time he's told it. For those that think Paterno should have known, he allowed his own grandchildren to go into swimming pools with Sandusky, again something that would be unlikely if you knew someone was a pedophile. It doesn't add up, and you'd hope everyone would have learned something from the Duke lacrosse thing (by the way, where was the NCAA rush to judgement on that one?)

One oddity about the whole thing is that the NCAA stripped wins all the way back to 1998. Why? Yes Sandusky was investigated in 1998 by the police but nothing came of it. Was Penn State and Paterno just supposed to fire and kick off campus a man that was basically considered a saint at the time?