One of the G.O.A.T talks about a Rising Superstar...

[Wally East]

It is OK to like Ms Taurasi more, but to say she was a better player at UConn than Maya Moore. Where? At what aspect of the game?

Bravo

The four losses UConn sustained in the Maya era, not a bad one among them

Well, that '03-'04 Villanova team was just a killer! So too was '03-'04 Boston College!

 

[Wally East]

*************SO even in this case if you don't put Russell ahead fo WIlt - where would you put him-- specifically interms of beign a great overall player. Please don't distinguish "Best winner ever" blah blah blah. The blah blah blah is not a bash on you or anyone--- maybe etc etc etc more appropriate. But where would you put Russell on a list of all-time great players? Top 5? Top 10? Top 20? Why would he be anywhere near there if his stats aren't that great.

Yeah, but his stats ARE that great. Russell AVERAGED 22.5 rebounds per game for his career. AVERAGED. That's second all-time (just a smidge behind Wilt). Without thinking about it seriously, he's a top 5 center or better and probably top 15 or 20 overall.

*** And as far as DT vs Maya- yes Maya sacrificed some shooting for passing. IMO DT sacrificed a lot more. She was a guard. SO I think her assist numbers for example were higher. Therefore also counting assists - those assists (getting players involved/ out of rhythm like Russell spoke of) could be the difference of UCONN beating Texas vs losing to Notre Dame.

Okay but then you'd expect the margin between D's career assists per game and Maya's to be greater than one. Does a single assist make up for 4 ppg and 4 rpg?

 

[hoophuskee]

It is OK to like Ms Taurasi more, but to say she was a better player at UConn than Maya Moore. Where? At what aspect of the game?

Offensively if you combine passing and scoring. As I posted to Wally just a little while ago- Bill Russell used to speak of how they defended Wilt - Let him score with not much resistance then really go after him in the 4th quarter. Russell would say that would put Wilt's teammates out of rhythm by the 4thquarter. Which Russell felt that was eventually why his team's got the better of Wilt's.

Maya was a scorer as her number 1 strength. DT was more of a combination passer/scorer. So who can argue that if DT was on the 2011 team instead of Maya that she wouldn't have gotten her teammate more involved than Maya did? So we mention how Maya got no help. Well maybe Maya's game doesn't allow for others to get as easily involved as guard like DT, right?

 

[Fiftyish]

Maria Conlon was able to play like she did because Diana made those players around her better players.

Just to deviate from this debate a little.......do we all remember what many of our fellow BY'ers thought of Maria Conlon during her freshman, sophomore, and part of her junior year? Shouldn't have been recruited. No speed. Can't play at D1 level.
Like Maria, I'm also from the Valley so she was always one of my favorite kids to root for. She turned into a pretty good D1 player; steady and dependable and able to drop in a 3 every now and then.

 

[hoophuskee]

Yeah, but his stats ARE that great. Russell AVERAGED 22.5 rebounds per game for his career. AVERAGED. That's second all-time (just a smidge behind Wilt). Without thinking about it seriously, he's a top 5 center or better and probably top 15 or 20 overall.



Okay but then you'd expect the margin between D's career assists per game and Maya's to be greater than one. Does a single assist make up for 4 ppg and 4 rpg?

1-- SO you are saying rebounds per game-- that ONE stat is the qualifier reason why you can say he is top ten all-time? A rebounding stat? SO where is Rodman in your all-time great list? His OREB% and DREB% are on Russell's and Wilt's level.

 

[Wally East]

Just to deviate from this debate a little..do we all remember what many of our fellow BY'ers thought of Maria Conlon during her freshman, sophomore, and part of her junior year? Shouldn't have been recruited. No speed. Can't play at D1 level.
Like Maria, I'm also from the Valley so she was always one of my favorite kids to root for. She turned into a pretty good D1 player; steady and dependable and able to drop in a 3 every now and then.

More than every now and then -- her senior year she shot 41.1% for 3-pters (I know, I know, STATS.)

 

[NoelAustin]

Offensively if you combine passing and scoring. As I posted to Wally just a little while ago- Bill Russell used to speak of how they defended Wilt - Let him score with not much resistance then really go after him in the 4th quarter. Russell would say that would put Wilt's teammates out of rhythm by the 4thquarter. Which Russell felt that was eventually why his team's got the better of Wilt's.

Maya was a scorer as her number 1 strength. DT was more of a combination passer/scorer. So who can argue that if DT was on the 2011 team instead of Maya that she wouldn't have gotten her teammate more involved than Maya did? So we mention how Maya got no help. Well maybe Maya's game doesn't allow for others to get as easily involved as guard like DT, right?

In the 2004 championship game DT had a subpar game shooting and finished with 17 points. However UConn was able to prevail over an underacheiving TN team with one AA, Shyra Ely. That Tennessee team was less talented than the Notre Dame team that ended Maya's college career in 2011. And Maya scored 36 points in that losing effort.

 

[hoophuskee]

In the 2004 championship game DT had a subpar game shooting and finished with 17 points. However UConn was able to prevail over an underacheiving TN team with one AA, Shyra Ely. That Tennessee team was less talented than the Notre Dame team that ended Maya's college career in 2011. And Maya scored 36 points in that losing effort.

What about the final four game in which DT had to go through Minnesota? That was an over-achieving very tough-minded gritty team. A lot like ND.

And again I'll mention you are throwing ppg at me. If you are a guard - and you are also an excellent passer how many assists did DT have? Maybe ot many but I can tell you Maay had 2 assists in that ND game.

As we have all seen a lot of hoop, was Maya a special passer? Was she a creator when it came to passing? Was DT?

If we can "forgive' Stewie's low point per game last year vs ND- why focus on scoring so much? Or for those that favor Steiw is last year's finals from Stewie in which she scored just 8 points.

Now when we are comparing Bird vs MoJeff let's go back to MJ's frosh and soph years in the final four. In the final four in her soph years anyone can look at the games and see that BOTH Stanford and ND were allowing MoJeff to shoot wide open from the outside anytime she wanted. Who EVER did that to Sue Bird? Leaving her deliberately wide open? So if we were to look at stats is her being left wide open so the opposing team can collapse inside the same as Sue Bird bricking in Oklahoma finals?

 

[Wally East]

1-- SO you are saying rebounds per game-- that ONE stat is the qualifier reason why you can say he is top ten all-time? A rebounding stat? SO where is Rodman in your all-time great list? His OREB% and DREB% are on Russell's and Wilt's level.

Rodman is 12th all-time with a much more earthly 13 rpg. Rodman averaged 7 ppg while Bill averaged 15 ppg (and nearly 5 assists per game, t00). Sorry for not mentioning that before. So, yes, if you average 15 and 22, yes, you get into the Hall. (Quick ranking: Wilt, Kareem, David Robinson, Russell, Shaq, Hakeem, but that's just off the top of my head.)

I can't find Russell or Wilts REB% numbers to compare. Do you have a link because at basketball-reference.com, those stats aren't there for Russell or Chamberlain. On that site they don't start until '70-'71 for the NBA.

 

[Kibitzer]

Now that Russ has been made part of this discussion, permit two comments.

1. His greatest skill was blocking shots and no stats were maintained in his era.

2. The quality that set him apart from any player to ever play the game was his incredible ability to inspire his teammates to heights they never imagined. Proof? How else could guys like Jim Luscotoff and Larry Siegfried earn five NC rings? Eight for Satch Sanders?

Wilt was beyond category. He once averaged 50 ppg. He also averaged over 48 mpg over a grueling NBA season. And led the league in assists in another.

But somehow Russ earned more rings than any pro player in any sport. Ever. And he did it because he was incomparably inspirational. I rest my case.

 

[Wally East]

As we have all seen a lot of hoop, was Maya a special passer? Was she a creator when it came to passing? Was DT?

One of them averaged 4.5 assists per game. One of them averaged 3.5 assists per game. There's not THAT much difference.

And, yes, Maya was a gifted passer. That's why she has 544 career assists.

 

[boontonbomber]

She just is. Years and years of watching her play. It's fairly obvious to me.

I have no problem with you disagreeing with me, I'll just consider you wrong. And you can pick Moore, and I'll take DT and we'll beat your team everyday and twice on Sunday.

You'd have to do without her the second game on Sunday, as her Russian sugar daddies would not her to play 2 games the same day.

 

[hoophuskee]

Rodman is 12th all-time with a much more earthly 13 rpg. Rodman averaged 7 ppg while Bill averaged 15 ppg (and nearly 5 assists per game, t00). Sorry for not mentioning that before. So, yes, if you average 15 and 22, yes, you get into the Hall. (Quick ranking: Wilt, Kareem, David Robinson, Russell, Shaq, Hakeem, but that's just off the top of my head.)

I can't find Russell or Wilts REB% numbers to compare. Do you have a link because at basketball-reference.com, those stats aren't there for Russell or Chamberlain. On that site they don't start until '70-'71 for the NBA.

You choose to look at rebounds per game but the only reason he is averaging so many rebounds per game is because he played so many minutes and players of that era played at a faster pace and shot a lot more bricks thus resulting in more rebounding opportunities. Because Russell has a lot more rebounding opportunities that shouldn't count against Rodman (BTW I hate Rodman). Thus if it is about stats stats stats - then Rodman is at Wilt's and Russell's numbers. Below is one link in whch statistical estimates are used in which the article states they are pretty near accurate. But I have to say- using just the rebounding stats of average 22 rebounds vs 15 means the guy with 22 is "better"- imo that is much more flawed than oreb% and dreb%. The guy (or woman) is using STATS to show Rodman may be a greater rebounder than both.

https://skepticalsports.com/the-case-for-dennis-rodman-part-14-c-rodman-v-ancient-history/

And if you want to include stats then if we are looking at Russell's scoring - we have to look at his anemic fg%. Why is it good for Russell that we're using stats of scoring in order to elevate Russell if his STATS are SHOWING US his shooting is so lousy? If we're going to use stats then we have to count fg% from big men and Russell's - if you just look at the fg stats- Russell's are downright awful. So again why is he so highly ranked?

 

[hoophuskee]

One of them averaged 4.5 assists per game. One of them averaged 3.5 assists per game. There's not THAT much difference.

And, yes, Maya was a gifted passer. That's why she has 544 career assists.

So someone that averages 3.5 assists is a "gifted passer?"

Can you tell me if you feel there is a difference between passing great let's say vs a Notre Dame or vs a University of Hartford?

 

[Wally East]

Can you tell me if you feel there is a difference between passing great let's say vs a Notre Dame or vs a University of Hartford?

Nope, not doing single game comparisons. Players have good games and bad games, such as 1 for 15 vs. ND or 3 for 13 vs Villanova or 4 for 15 vs ND or ...

Yes, people have called players "gifted passers" when averaging that many assists per game or even fewer.

 

[johnnyc]

Well if it is the eye test.....there's a reason Maya is talking about Stewart and not Jefferson.

 

[Scud49]

Now that Russ has been made part of this discussion, permit two comments.

1. His greatest skill was blocking shots and no stats were maintained in his era.

2. The quality that set him apart from any player to ever play the game was his incredible ability to inspire his teammates to heights they never imagined. Proof? How else could guys like Jim Luscotoff and Larry Siegfried earn five NC rings? Eight for Satch Sanders?

Wilt was beyond category. He once averaged 50 ppg. He also averaged over 48 mpg over a grueling NBA season. And led the league in assists in another.

But somehow Russ earned more rings than any pro player in any sport. Ever. And he did it because he was incomparably inspirational. I rest my case.

And Russ would often times block a shot, control it, flick it out to a teammate for a fast break and layup. Other times he would just make an opponent alter a shot and create a turnover, another form of "disruption".

Simply knowing you have a teammate who can accomplish those types of things, it is truly inspirational.

 

[VAUConnFan]

Maya was a scorer as her number 1 strength. DT was more of a combination passer/scorer. So who can argue that if DT was on the 2011 team instead of Maya that she wouldn't have gotten her teammate more involved than Maya did? So we mention how Maya got no help. Well maybe Maya's game doesn't allow for others to get as easily involved as guard like DT, right?

1. We are talking about one of four losses in the Maya era. One out of four; In an era that included a 90 game winning streak. Whether Maya's game allows for others to get involved or not(again, you are going to have to supplement that argument considering that Tina Charles and Renee Montgomery were AAs during Maya's time at Storrs), it was a formula/coaching decision that worked all but four times in four years.
2. UConn did not lose that national semifinal to Notre Dame due to lack of offense or because Maya got no help. UConn played well enough offensively to win that game. They scored 32 points in the first half and went into the locker room with a six point lead. UConn scored 31 points in the second half and lost by 9 with Notre Dame exploding for 46 second half points; Reminiscent of the 2001 national semifinal against the same program. A team is not going to win too many tournament games when an opposing team gets that hot; And, when an individual opposing player plays a game that puts them among all time great opponent performances.
3. Are you suggesting that scoring was not Ms Taurasi's Number 1 strength? She could flat out score.

 

[hoophuskee]

Nope, not doing single game comparisons. Players have good games and bad games, such as 1 for 15 vs. ND or 3 for 13 vs Villanova or 4 for 15 vs ND or ...

Yes, people have called players "gifted passers" when averaging that many assists per game or even fewer.

1-- Name one - who was a gifted player with just a 3 assist career average.

2-- I just showed you the data - the stats why Rodman was a better rebounder than Russell and Wilt. And you have the stats at your fingertips that Russell's fg% was God-awful. So isn't it better that he doesn't shoot? A guy taking that many shots with such a crummy %, how can that be good? Secondly, what kind of defensive stats do you show for Russell? What stats are out there that he was a great defender than Unseld, Reed, Bellamy or Hayes?

3-- So you don't think looking game-to-game matters / who is the opponent etc? So the type of stats you have been throwing out on here - if we were to use the stats that you and some others have been using, how can you justify Tuck being better than Gabby while Tuck gets close to 7 more minutes per game? Gabby shoots better from the floor. She shoots ft's better. She has a higher rebounding average. If you gave her the same minutes as Tuck she'd have a slightly higher scoring average. The only thing is Tuck averages 3 assists with about 1.5 turnovers while Gabby is a little over 1 ass ist and little over 1 turnover. Gabby averages more blocks and more steals. So while Tuck has more minutes ---> other than assists to to ratio of 1.5-to-1 for Tuck vs Gabby for 1-to-1 ---> Gabby beats out Tuck on everything else.

And we don't know who the better defender is, do we? Unless we have defensive rating stats? So you and I can't use some logic and look at stats vs the top tier teams and see that Tuck is superior? Wouldn't those stats more reflect who really is that much better?

 

[jsss66]

It's difficult to explain, but okay I'll try. I wasn't attempting to be outrageous or contrarian. I really do believe it. There are obviously incredible, god-given differences in terms of their physical attributes- Moriah will never dunk the ball, nor at a wiry 5'7" will she ever be able to defend a 6'4" power player inside. But her mid-range jumper and her 3-pointer are just as good as Stewie's; Moriah's handle and her passing skills are clearly superior; despite Stewie's incredible length, athleticism and the shot-blocking skills that come with it, Moriah is every bit as talented a defender, and one-on-one I think she's better while Stewie's strength is more as an off-ball, help defender. Stewie is incredibly tough, taking a beating on a regular basis, and so does Moriah, but Stewie is built a little better to handle it and gets a few more calls as the NCAA POY, while #4 continually takes a licking and keeps on ticking. Moriah's toughness and motor are epic.

That said, there's no doubt that a great and talented big kid almost always garners more attention and acclaim than a great little one. Objectively comparing a point guard to a forward is kind of impossible, apples and oranges, where very different skill sets have to be evaluated. (Another shaky justification for my claim.)

While it's not necessarily pertinent to this discussion, we constantly hear what an insane work ethic Stewie has, to become the best player she can be. The exact same can be said about Moriah. What Moriah does on both sides of the ball, the unreal energy she expends every second, the way she gets her team going as its leader (like a great Stewie play does) is spectacular. Both have been pretty much equally indispensable and significant to UConn's special run.

My reasoning is a lot intuitive, hard to verbalize, and based upon the eye test by a fan who is a profound neophyte in judging the nebulous determinants of "greatness."

But pound for pound (and inch for inch) there is nobody better and nobody tougher in WCBB today than Moriah Jefferson. [A mini-version of the USS Missouri- MIGHTY MO.]

I agree. Moriah ranks right up there with the best. She is a terrific force on both sides of the ball, even though she she is unselfish on offense. Mariah deserves more accolades and more ink.

 

[hoophuskee]

1. We are talking about one of four losses in the Maya era. One out of four; In an era that included a 90 game winning streak. Whether Maya's game allows for others to get involved or not(again, you are going to have to supplement that argument considering that Tina Charles and Renee Montgomery were AAs during Maya's time at Storrs), it was a formula/coaching decision that worked all but four times in four years.
2. UConn did not lose that national semifinal to Notre Dame due to lack of offense or because Maya got no help. UConn played well enough offensively to win that game. They scored 32 points in the first half and went into the locker room with a six point lead. UConn scored 31 points in the second half and lost by 9 with Notre Dame exploding for 46 second half points; Reminiscent of the 2001 national semifinal against the same program. A team is not going to win too many tournament games when an opposing team gets that hot; And, when an individual opposing player plays a game that puts them among all time great opponent performances.
3. Are you suggesting that scoring was not Ms Taurasi's Number 1 strength? She could flat out score.

1-- Now we are going by wins and losses? You and wall east have been "liking" one another for quite some time on this thread but read one of his 1st posts. He said posters get -10 points for those that count titles because that is a "team" thing. Yet you want to count wins and losses? Isn't that a team thing too?

2-- UCONN played Notre Dame 4 times that year. Three of the 4 times they scored more than UCONN's 63 points. One game which UCONN won Notre Dame scored 76 points. Why couldn't UCONN score more in this game or equal to what they did before? Who messed up? If we could score 79 before why not again?

3-- You're right her scoring was her number 1 strength. Her passing was better than Maya's though. Do you agree? If you don't. I'll ask you the same question I asked wally.
Can you tell me if you feel there is a difference between passing great let's say vs a Notre Dame or vs a University of Hartford?

 

[Fiftyish]

More than every now and then -- her senior year she shot 41.1% for 3-pters (I know, I know, STATS.)

Yeah, but she only attempted 141 3pointers compared to DT's 218 and Strother's 161. Sorta every now and then.

 

[VAUConnFan]

1-- Now we are going by wins and losses? You and wall east have been "liking" one another for quite some time on this thread but read one of his 1st posts. He said posters get -10 points for those that count titles because that is a "team" thing. Yet you want to count wins and losses? Isn't that a team thing too?

2-- UCONN played Notre Dame 4 times that year. Three of the 4 times they scored more than UCONN's 63 points. One game which UCONN won Notre Dame scored 76 points. Why couldn't UCONN score more in this game or equal to what they did before? Who messed up? If we could score 79 before why not again?

3-- You're right her scoring was her number 1 strength. Her passing was better than Maya's though. Do you agree? If you don't. I'll ask you the same question I asked wally.
Can you tell me if you feel there is a difference between passing great let's say vs a Notre Dame or vs a University of Hartford?

1. I was responding to your assertion about getting other players involved.
2. A number of years back(Post Play, started August 29, 2011), the issue of playing a team four times in a season came up for which my crack research determined that at no time in the women's game has a team swept an opponent they have played four times in a season. The very fact that it was the fourth game between Notre Dame and UConn made it a difficult feat for the Huskies.
Who messed up? As far as I am concerned, no one messed up. It was just Notre Dame's Day with Skylar Diggins leading the way with 28 points. Only Tonya Sampson has had a better outing against UConn in the Auriemma era.
If UConn could score 79 before why not again? That is the very nature of sports. Remember, too, that UConn had an opponent on the floor determined to keep them from repeating the success of the previous three outings. Why does a pitcher who has struck out a guy four previous times in a game, give up a homerun on the 5th at bat? Why does a player who has been perfect from the line all season, miss a critical free throw in the final minute of a crucial tournament game(UCLA-Louisville 1975)? How does Villanova beat Georgetown in 1985? How did Team USA beat the Red Army team in 1980? How does a golfer shoot a round of 66 come back the next day on the same course, similar conditions, and shoot 80? Sports and competition.
3. If you twist my arm, yes, Diana Taurasi was an excellent passer; Better than Maya. Also a better ball handler than Maya.
Of course there is a difference between playing a very good team and playing a mediocre team. What is your point, though? Are you suggesting that one played against consistently better competition? Is so, who? Are you also suggesting that Taurasi's passing ability is what, in your mind, separates her from Maya?

 

[MilfordHusky]

Equally impressive is her scoring in double digits in 149 of 154 career games.

That's the NCAA record. 149 double-digit games. What the hell went wrong in the other 5?

 

[Wally East]

[ ... ]

Sigh.

1. You're getting the number wrong, and, ohmygosh, you're lowballing it . But: People said Stef was a gifted passer and she averaged fewer assists per game than Maya. Sveta, too, who averaged about the same as Maya (maybe a tenth or two more, I'm forgetting at the moment).

2. No, that article was pretty close to garbage but I would have to get paid to care less than I already do about Rodman vs. whomever.

3. I have literally no idea what you're trying to say with point 3.

You're focused on stats. Great. Show me the stats that show that D is a better player than Maya. I mean, that's what we're discussing.

 

[UcMiami]

All I have to say is that we definitely need a bigger mountain than that puny little Rushmore for our Uconn Huskies - I need to carve at least five heads in stone, and would really be happier if we could expand that to an Olympic team sized twelve! Who comes first or fifth or 12th doesn't really matter, and while I love getting into stats and 'eye tests' and intangibles and teammates and competition, it really comes down to balancing everything out and I really dislike pulling down one player to build up a case for another.

Maya (or Sveta or Nykesha) and Diana and Tina (or Stef or Rebecca) and Sue (or Moriah) and Breanna all played fundamentally different positions with fundamentally different bodies and skills so how many points and assists and rebounds and steals and fouls are going to be fundamentally different and how they picked up those stats are going to be fundamentally different. And they did them on different teams with different competition. To come up with a definitive answer is impossible. To state a favorite is great, to cite some stats and accomplishments to back up that favorite is also great, but to pretend that someone else's favorite within a universe of great players playing different positions is 'wrong' is silly.

Personally if DT, Maya, Breanna, and either Sue or Moriah were all graduating this year and I had first pick in the draft for my team I would first have to study my roster carefully before deciding who to pick - because any one of them would be a godsend, and I would select the one where my current team was weakest. (Or I would see who would trade the most to move from pick 2, 3 , or 4 to switch picks with me, because I would still be getting a great game changer with any one of the other picks! )

 

[hoophuskee]

1. I was responding to your assertion about getting other players involved.
2. A number of years back(Post Play, started August 29, 2011), the issue of playing a team four times in a season came up for which my crack research determined that at no time in the women's game has a team swept an opponent they have played four times in a season. The very fact that it was the fourth game between Notre Dame and UConn made it a difficult feat for the Huskies.
Who messed up? As far as I am concerned, no one messed up. It was just Notre Dame's Day with Skylar Diggins leading the way with 28 points. Only Tonya Sampson has had a better outing against UConn in the Auriemma era.
If UConn could score 79 before why not again? That is the very nature of sports. Remember, too, that UConn had an opponent on the floor determined to keep them from repeating the success of the previous three outings. Why does a pitcher who has struck out a guy four previous times in a game, give up a homerun on the 5th at bat? Why does a player who has been perfect from the line all season, miss a critical free throw in the final minute of a crucial tournament game(UCLA-Louisville 1975)? How does Villanova beat Georgetown in 1985? How did Team USA beat the Red Army team in 1980? How does a golfer shoot a round of 66 come back the next day on the same course, similar conditions, and shoot 80? Sports and competition.
3. If you twist my arm, yes, Diana Taurasi was an excellent passer; Better than Maya. Also a better ball handler than Maya.
Of course there is a difference between playing a very good team and playing a mediocre team. What is your point, though? Are you suggesting that one played against consistently better competition? Is so, who? Are you also suggesting that Taurasi's passing ability is what, in your mind, separates her from Maya?

1-- I specifically spoke of one game in which Maya had just 2 assists. You brought up an entire career of wins and losses. I don't see what that has to do with assists? We know Maya's teams have won games defensively (in which passing wasn't a factor)? For example, in her sr year vs ND one game she had 1 assist vs 6 turnovers. SO to include her overall record in her era and using it against my point of assists in that single game I was referencing imo is irrelevant. Unless if you want to bring up eras and "wins and losses" then this means I can elaborate and speak how DT got everyone involved more by winning 3 titles in 4 years. In one breathe you can't say " number of titles" for DT don't mean anything then in the next breathe use total team record as a trump card. Maya had two assists but 4 turnovers in her last game. Who else did she get involved in the game? If she was a gifted passer as wally said and no one one messed up then why did we only score 63 points when all the other games that year vs ND we scored over 72?

2-- No one messed up? So we were favored to win. We lost. And the game wasn't considered a great well played game like on the men's side Ky vs Duke of years ago, was it? SO someone or several had to mess up. Or unless you are saying no one is to be held accountable? Maybe my wording is too harsh but what can you point to offensively when we played ND that we didn't do well this time around? Because if we scored only 63 points in 4 games vs ND - we lose three out of four. If we scored what we did in the prior three games, we win the game. Each of the three games prior we scored over the 72 points ND scored. So offense had to be the problem, right?

3-- We can point to - the last two games vs ND - the rest of the team had an EFG% of 40.28% in the win and 39.66% in the loss. Yet the two prior wins the rest of the team had an EFG% of 62.79% and 47.56%. Why were we dropping and why couldn't UCONN score as much as they had in the prior 3? Maya got her points. So what happened?

4-- IMO all you have to do is look at the games that UCONN was threatened - games which were 10 points or less or were lost. Maya had 18 assists to go along with 21 turnovers. Look at the Stanford game, Maya had 4 assists no turnovers but had 3 assists in the 1sthalf. UCONN was only losing by 4 at half. The EFG% in that loss, take away Maya's numbers, their EFG% was 38.04%. When we blew out ND that year Maya had 7 assists and 3 turnovers. The EFG% from the other players was 62.79%.

************Maya is the greatest scorer in wcbb that I have ever seen. If that is the argument okay along with her defense and relentless dogged determination and day 1 she was great to her last day. IMO her and DT are right there - either/or. I just don't think an overview look of DT's stats as a comparison tells the whole story. I think she has "Bill Russell-like qualities" that can't be measured or deeper advanced stats that we don't see. The reason for my question about individual games is that games that are won comfortably vs bad teams are different than games in which you are threatened. The overall stats of Maya's passing reflect overall she had good number of assists and few turnovers. But for example when we view her senior year - games which UCONN was threatened- and including the blowout of ND - she had 25 assists and 24 turnovers. Excluign it - her numbers are 18 asst vs 21 T.O.. Those stats are more important imo- tells me a bit more of Maya's passing than her getting high number of assists vs weak teams. IMO when comparing all-time greats there should be a distinction. I did not check DT's. SO maybe someone can come back at me and show DT's weren't any good later in her career. But I know some games she was hurt - and in her last two years I didn't think she had Maya's firepower of teammates. I always thought Tiffany Hayes had lots of game> I am still stunned the moronic GM's passed on her until the 2nd round. Just like last year many of us KNEW Stokes could play. Didn't know she'd be such an impact but "the Doris Burke exaggerations" were a bit over-the-top imo.

 

[hoophuskee]

Sigh.

1. You're getting the number wrong, and, ohmygosh, you're lowballing it . But: People said Stef was a gifted passer and she averaged fewer assists per game than Maya. Sveta, too, who averaged about the same as Maya (maybe a tenth or two more, I'm forgetting at the moment).

2. No, that article was pretty close to garbage but I would have to get paid to care less than I already do about Rodman vs. whomever.

3. I have literally no idea what you're trying to say with point 3.

You're focused on stats. Great. Show me the stats that show that D is a better player than Maya. I mean, that's what we're discussing.

1-- My mistake I lowballed 3 assists vs 3.5 assists.1a-- Ohmygosh is right. So now we know DT is a gifted passer so Dolson was a gifted passer as a center - but somehow that makes her comparable to a guar Please. . . - you're taking thigns that literal? Why not say Wilt and Russell were as great as passers as STeve Nash and Stockton? They bother were "gifted" at their positions, right? Now Dolson in comparison to DT as passers because they are both "gifted? Sigh.

2-- I provide you stats- and imo all you are doing is cherry-picking what you want to believe to fit your argument. If that is the way you are going to handle it- then our conversation is done.

3-- I don't believe you when you say you don't know what I'm saying with number 3. I was comparing Gabby vs Tuck this year before tonight's game. Who had the better stats on a per minute basis? And overall Gabby's fg% numbers were superior along with all of her other stats (rebounding, block,s steals) other than assists vs turnovers. These are stats that you use when comparing DT vs Maya. How hard is it to figure that out?

4-- I see you didn't answer Russell's fg% question? Or the defensive stats for Russell. Why is he so high on your list? Ignoring fg% for Russell yet you have no problem cherry-picking other stats. It's okay we all have stats that we prefer. IMO you cherry-pick yours for this thread to try to fit your pov.

5-- I'm not focused on stats - I was countering your initial posts of placing so much emphasis on them. I just showed you the stat numbers of Rodman vs Wilt vs Russell. Your choosing to ignore the stats is no more relevant than anyone that has replied to you and said they think DT is better. All I can say is- you used total rebound numbers per game to define Russell as an all-time great. I think that is so silly. SO I'm sorry the guy or girl speaking of Rodman imo has a lot more credibility than your use of stats in this particular instance. As I said before you got me back off months ago with Lobo vs Tina. But In this instance imo you are cherry-picking. Total rebound numbers per game and a pathetic shooting percentage along with no defensive data doesn't put a guy among the top 5 centers ever. I can't trust how you look at things if this is how you are with Russell.

 

[hoophuskee]

I just want to make it clear. Maya is a beast. It seems like I am bashing her. I hate it. I am not. She is the most amazing scorer I have ever seen. Best ever. She can pass. She is relentless. She can defend. I love Maya. Man -- this stinks I look back at my posts and I am attacking arguably the greatest wcb I have ever seen. I enjoy the banter back-and-forth= I regret it might have gotten a little hostile. This thread is over for me. Maya and DT are right there. what can I say? And Stewie just want tt see how she finishes. I love Maya!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[CONNMAN98]

1-- My mistake I lowballed 3 assists vs 3.5 assists.1a-- Ohmygosh is right. So now we know DT is a gifted passer so Dolson was a gifted passer as a center - but somehow that makes her comparable to a guar Please. . . - you're taking thigns that literal? Why not say Wilt and Russell were as great as passers as STeve Nash and Stockton? They bother were "gifted" at their positions, right? Now Dolson in comparison to DT as passers because they are both "gifted? Sigh.

2-- I provide you stats- and imo all you are doing is cherry-picking what you want to believe to fit your argument. If that is the way you are going to handle it- then our conversation is done.

3-- I don't believe you when you say you don't know what I'm saying with number 3. I was comparing Gabby vs Tuck this year before tonight's game. Who had the better stats on a per minute basis? And overall Gabby's fg% numbers were superior along with all of her other stats (rebounding, block,s steals) other than assists vs turnovers. These are stats that you use when comparing DT vs Maya. How hard is it to figure that out?

4-- I see you didn't answer Russell's fg% question? Or the defensive stats for Russell. Why is he so high on your list? Ignoring fg% for Russell yet you have no problem cherry-picking other stats. It's okay we all have stats that we prefer. IMO you cherry-pick yours for this thread to try to fit your pov.

5-- I'm not focused on stats - I was countering your initial posts of placing so much emphasis on them. I just showed you the stat numbers of Rodman vs Wilt vs Russell. Your choosing to ignore the stats is no more relevant than anyone that has replied to you and said they think DT is better. All I can say is- you used total rebound numbers per game to define Russell as an all-time great. I think that is so silly. SO I'm sorry the guy or girl speaking of Rodman imo has a lot more credibility than your use of stats in this particular instance. As I said before you got me back off months ago with Lobo vs Tina. But In this instance imo you are cherry-picking. Total rebound numbers per game and a pathetic shooting percentage along with no defensive data doesn't put a guy among the top 5 centers ever. I can't trust how you look at things if this is how you are with Russell.

You don't think Russell is among the top 5 centers ever? I'm sorry but I would take the word of almost every NBA player who has ever seen him play or played against him over your or my opinion.