OT: One Argument to Open Colleges

[Roger G]

Here's something from the Washington Post for those among us who find anything in the New York Times dubious to the point of unreadability. (For those who find the Post dubious—and maybe don't even believe in Watergate—this story was also reported in the New York Post. Hope that's a solid enough source for you.) I myself have no interest in contracting a "fairly weak virus" capable of causing deadly strokes even in vibrant thirtysomethings.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/04/24/strokes-coronavirus-young-patients/?hpid=hp_ed-picks_strokes-0426%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans&itid=hp_ed-picks_strokes-0426%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans

They're all dubious. Anyway, there is nothing in the article that says that the strokes were caused by Covid, just that the young people had Covid. So does a huge swath of the population, they are finding out. But this kind of stuff could happen anytime. We don't know right now that Covid was the cause.

If you are afeared, stay in your house. But, just don't ever get anything delivered ever, because that might have a virus or something on it. There is no way to completely shield yourself from viruses. You have about 380 trillion viruses in you and they are everywhere. I'm in my fifties, encounter a hundred or so people a day at work, and I will not cower. If I were 18-22, you know I would be taking my chances. It's all about risk tolerance. I hope you are well. But not you or I or anyone can ever stop death from happening. It's a fact of life.

 

[Roger G]

Really ? Do you have any idea the average age of tenured professors on a U.S. campus ? It may be true that the student age population are somewhat less vulnerable, but they are the biggest segment of infected & asystematic which would lead to outbreaks all around a campus.

Well, I am tempted to weigh the pros and cons of less professors, but, in seriousness, that is an issue. I think everybody needs to assess their own risk tolerance and if they are afeared, they should stay quarantined. But even quarantining won't necessarily keep the virus from you. Unless you build a safe room and have all items brought to you disinfected before they get into your safe room. Deliveries from the grocery store or Amazon or whatever could still be infected. Most of us are wearing masks and such, but if you recall, the masks and social distancing and such were not meant to keep us from getting infected, they were to flatten the curve and slow the spread so hospitals would not be overwhelmed. Many of us are going to get infected no matter what we do. It's inevitable. So we need to get on with our lives. The kids need to start building their future. You don't want to ruin their future do you?

 

[Roger G]

Herd immunity is not yet proven for this virus, and there are certainly examples of young people who have died from this virus. What about faculty and staff, many of whom are not spring chickens? What about cafeteria staff, maintenance staff and campus security? This is going to be complicated.

When you look at the big picture, it is complicated, but we have no choice but to move on. Like the British used to say, Keep a stiff upper lip and soldier on. And herd immunity will never be proven from a novel virus, by definition, but that's the way immunity works. It may not with this one, but if it doesn't, we're doomed because you can get this thing a million different ways, on a counter, on a product, etc. We might as well give life a try with a little faith, because the only other alternative seems to be to wait until the virus makes a way into our homes. We should at least give the kids a chance to live a life. Living in quarantine forever is no life at all.

 

[Roger G]

I wish the relatively simply path suggested above turns out to be an enlightened one. If college students begin to succumb to the disease in increasing numbers after returning to campuses, then our problem becomes a much bigger one. I think that it may be a little premature and naive to characterize COVID-19 as a "fairly week virus." As more and more is discovered anecdotally by physicians and nurses about how the virus attacks the body and leads to death, the realization by many is that our current treatment options aren't enough to save patients who weeks earlier were relatively healthy.

As a parent of a college student who is receiving instruction remotely, I am in no hurry for college classes to resume in the physical classroom until more is known about the transmission of the disease and comprehensive testing protocols are discussed and vetted.

So, I wouldn't say "week," I would say "weak." But the data is there to show it. Even the models the "so-called" experts are using have brought their numbers down to show this disease is about as potent as a fairly strong flu. They thought this was going to be far, far worse, as in 2.2 million deaths. It may be 60K or so. For those who aren't good with numbers, I'll tell you, that's a lot, lot less.

 

[oldude]

When you look at the big picture, it is complicated, but we have no choice but to move on. Like the British used to say, Keep a stiff upper lip and soldier on. And herd immunity will never be proven from a novel virus, by definition, but that's the way immunity works. It may not with this one, but if it doesn't, we're doomed because you can get this thing a million different ways, on a counter, on a product, etc. We might as well give life a try with a little faith, because the only other alternative seems to be to wait until the virus makes a way into our homes. We should at least give the kids a chance to live a life. Living in quarantine forever is no life at all.

I agree that we have no choice but to move on.....prudently. Herd immunity can most definitely be proven, statistically for any virus. The fact that this is a novel coronavirus only means it's new to human beings. Once upon the time, bubonic plague was new to human beings. As for giving life a try with a little faith. I much prefer giving life a try with a little science.

So yes, let's bring back businesses. schools and even sports. But let's do so prudently based on science. I don't want to see another person die from this terrible virus who doesn't have to. Until we have a vaccine, we are going to have to live with the precautions of social distancing, mask wearing and a myriad of other steps to protect ourselves and others.

 

[hoopsfan22]

Looks like campus will stay closed for the summer, and a decision will be made by June 30th about the fall semester. Interesting how other schools in the state like UNH are preparing to let kids return for the fall semester, but UConn is saying they should prepare for the fall semester to be distance learning as well.

 

[JonathanXIV]

They're all dubious. Anyway, there is nothing in the article that says that the strokes were caused by Covid, just that the young people had Covid. So does a huge swath of the population, they are finding out. But this kind of stuff could happen anytime. We don't know right now that Covid was the cause.

If you are afeared, stay in your house. But, just don't ever get anything delivered ever, because that might have a virus or something on it. There is no way to completely shield yourself from viruses. You have about 380 trillion viruses in you and they are everywhere. I'm in my fifties, encounter a hundred or so people a day at work, and I will not cower. If I were 18-22, you know I would be taking my chances. It's all about risk tolerance. I hope you are well. But not you or I or anyone can ever stop death from happening. It's a fact of life.

This isn't an issue of fear, it's one of social responsibility. What your post misses is that our risk assessment doesn't just include how much risk I am willing to assume, but must acknowledge that I can unknowingly transmit the virus to others who may be much more at risk. I don't have that right. I would hope that you agree that you don't have that right either.

 

[Littlemin]

I don’t know what your experience has been so I will not make an assumption. I was speaking for my experience as well as my son’s, along with many friends and family members who have attended college over multiple generations, up to and including today.

I have stayed involved with both my alma maters as well as my son’s and I would not describe either as intolerant and controlling, nor would I describe any other college or university in that fashion. My primary complaint of colleges in general is the accelerating costs for tuition and fees.

I don‘t pretend to tell other people what to think but I believe there is ample evidence from many different angles regarding the intolerance and suppression of viewpoints not in line with what colleges and universities believe to be the “right way to think”; one only has to be willing to look for it. Since there is a strict rule here not to discuss politics this will be my last comment on the subject.

 

[connie]

I don‘t pretend to tell other people what to think but I believe there is ample evidence from many different angles regarding the intolerance and suppression of viewpoints not in line with what colleges and universities believe to be the “right way to think”; one only has to be willing to look for it. Since there is a strict rule here not to discuss politics this will be my last comment on the subject.

oh boy.

There are over 4,000 degree-granting institutions of higher learning in the US, and tens of thousands more around the world. These institutions--including colleges and universities--offer training in hundreds if not thousands of areas. General areas of disciplinary focus encompass life sciences, medicine, visual and performing arts, traditional liberal arts; the hard sciences; engineering; technology; and business, to name just several. Within these broad areas, one can specialize and receive accreditation, certification, and training in many domains: accounting; cyber security; civil engineering; business administration; forest management; hospitality services; dairy science; nursing; urban planning; . . . the list is endless. Even more endless is the number and variety of courses offered by technical schools, colleges, and universities.

This is not to say that dominant institutions do not manifest paradigms of knowledge production, including prevailing orthodoxies. That is to be expected, institutions being what they are. And it is certainly true that most disciplines reflect some conception of "the right way to think". After all, one does not study tensor analysis in the service of numerology. But to suggest that all of higher education is characterized by "intolerance" and "supression of viewpoints" is neither credible nor supportable. Quite the opposite: the project of higher education thrives on innovation and developing ideas and practices. It is the very cornerstone to progress in almost every domain of human endeavor.

 

[uconnfan68]

So, I wouldn't say "week," I would say "weak." But the data is there to show it. Even the models the "so-called" experts are using have brought their numbers down to show this disease is about as potent as a fairly strong flu. They thought this was going to be far, far worse, as in 2.2 million deaths. It may be 60K or so. For those who aren't good with numbers, I'll tell you, that's a lot, lot less.

I’m pretty sure the 2.2m number is a projected annual number. The 60k is just the last 2 months or so, and it may be way undercounted.

 

[HopJim]

Article was written in a very myopic way, focusing solely on students. Most colleges and universities base part of their education on interaction with business and community activities. Students typically travel frequently to various locations around the country and world. No thought put into how to minimize spread of virus with these issues. Also surprised to not see any suggested approaches that would reduce costs - seemed author more concerned with keeping existing revenue stream. Not a very valuable article.

 

[oldude]

I’m pretty sure the 2.2m number is a projected annual number. The 60k is just the last 2 months or so, and it may be way undercounted.

The 2 million number was the federal government’s statistical model assuming no efforts to mitigate the virus. The massive effort of the people of this country to self-quarantine and practice social distancing is the single most important reason why the total number of deaths in the US will hopefully be significantly less than the original projections.

 

[HopJim]

So, I wouldn't say "week," I would say "weak." But the data is there to show it. Even the models the "so-called" experts are using have brought their numbers down to show this disease is about as potent as a fairly strong flu. They thought this was going to be far, far worse, as in 2.2 million deaths. It may be 60K or so. For those who aren't good with numbers, I'll tell you, that's a lot, lot less.

Scary to read comments like this. 60K+ deaths in about 3 months, coming after significant social distancing and shut downs, all of which are being relaxed or ended. All medical professionals predicting 2nd wave. Tell me again how this compares to flu. Likely this is a thread better for another Board. Let's talk basketball!

 

[JonathanXIV]

The 2 million number was the federal government’s statistical model assuming no efforts to mitigate the virus. The massive effort of the people of this country to self-quarantine and practice social distancing is the single most important reason why the total number of deaths in the US will hopefully be significantly less than the original projections.

What's more, the initial projections were based on no measures to combat the spread of the virus. Can't compare that number to the current death totals. That's like projecting how much water will get into your house when your roof has holes in it, and then compare it to how little water got in after repairs.

 

[PAC-12HoopFan]

It's almost exclusively old people that are dying. Just keep the kids on the campus and don't send them home. They'll be fine. Furthermore, they will build a herd immunity and keep the rest of us safer. About half the deaths have been in nursing homes. 84% of deaths are people who are over 65. The kids are fine, pretty much invulnerable to this very contagious but fairly weak virus. Oh, but here I go with facts, silly me.

I think that Roger G's desire to get the students back to campus to develop herd immunity is an ill-advised one with so much still unknown about the virus and its disease. I am aware of a healthy D1 basketball player who contracted COVID-19 soon after the NCAA tourney was cancelled. The athlete was in otherwise outstanding shape and knew pretty quickly that something was seriously wrong with his health. That athlete is now considered recovered, but the illness was much more than an elevated temp and flu-like symptoms. It is likely that the healthiest of our student-athletes will survive COVID-19, but the reach of college students can be immense.

How many deaths of college-age students and the people they interact with is acceptable to build the herd immunity that Roger G envisions in his post above? We are at 56k confirmed COVID-related deaths now in this country. The "pretty much invulnerable" label used above is a red flag to me.

 

[JonathanXIV]

I think that Roger G's desire to get the students back to campus to develop herd immunity is an ill-advised one with so much still unknown about the virus and its disease. I am aware of a healthy D1 basketball player who contracted COVID-19 soon after the NCAA tourney was cancelled. The athlete was in otherwise outstanding shape and knew pretty quickly that something was seriously wrong with his health. That athlete is now considered recovered, but the illness was much more than an elevated temp and flu-like symptoms. It is likely that the healthiest of our student-athletes will survive COVID-19, but the reach of college students can be immense.

How many deaths of college-age students and the people they interact with is acceptable to build the herd immunity that Roger G envisions in his post above? We are at 56k confirmed COVID-related deaths now in this country. The "pretty much invulnerable" label used above is a red flag to me.

Good post. The only thing I would add is that the medical community has yet to confirm long-standing immunity as the result of contracting the disease.

 

[Bonpland]

It's almost exclusively old people that are dying. Just keep the kids on the campus and don't send them home. They'll be fine. Furthermore, they will build a herd immunity and keep the rest of us safer. About half the deaths have been in nursing homes. 84% of deaths are people who are over 65. The kids are fine, pretty much invulnerable to this very contagious but fairly weak virus. Oh, but here I go with facts, silly me.

This is a disturbing comment. Simplistic and dangerous.

 

[hoopsfan22]

I think that Roger G's desire to get the students back to campus to develop herd immunity is an ill-advised one with so much still unknown about the virus and its disease. I am aware of a healthy D1 basketball player who contracted COVID-19 soon after the NCAA tourney was cancelled. The athlete was in otherwise outstanding shape and knew pretty quickly that something was seriously wrong with his health. That athlete is now considered recovered, but the illness was much more than an elevated temp and flu-like symptoms. It is likely that the healthiest of our student-athletes will survive COVID-19, but the reach of college students can be immense.

How many deaths of college-age students and the people they interact with is acceptable to build the herd immunity that Roger G envisions in his post above? We are at 56k confirmed COVID-related deaths now in this country. The "pretty much invulnerable" label used above is a red flag to me.

Unless Roger G is a student, I don't see why he would care whether students get back on campus. 50-50 chance Storrs stays closed until next year anyway. With Connecticut being as densely populated as it is, if you reopen too much and there's a flare up, given the delayed onset of symptoms with this disease, by the time you figure out there's a flare up, that small brush fire has turned into a huge out of control forest fire.

 

[Roger G]

This is a disturbing comment. Simplistic and dangerous.

Facts can be so disturbing, can't they? And dangerous to certain suppositions it is true.

 

[Roger G]

Unless Roger G is a student, I don't see why he would care whether students get back on campus. 50-50 chance Storrs stays closed until next year anyway. With Connecticut being as densely populated as it is, if you reopen too much and there's a flare up, given the delayed onset of symptoms with this disease, by the time you figure out there's a flare up, that small brush fire has turned into a huge out of control forest fire.

You don't see why I would care about the students if I'm not one? Really. I care about everybody. I'm afraid you just showed your hand and it's not pretty.

 

[Roger G]

Scary to read comments like this. 60K+ deaths in about 3 months, coming after significant social distancing and shut downs, all of which are being relaxed or ended. All medical professionals predicting 2nd wave. Tell me again how this compares to flu. Likely this is a thread better for another Board. Let's talk basketball!

I'm sorry you find my comment scary.

 

[Roger G]

I’m pretty sure the 2.2m number is a projected annual number. The 60k is just the last 2 months or so, and it may be way undercounted.

Or it may be way over counted. Anyway, the 2.2 million is not going to come close to happening. Thank God.

 

[Roger G]

This isn't an issue of fear, it's one of social responsibility. What your post misses is that our risk assessment doesn't just include how much risk I am willing to assume, but must acknowledge that I can unknowingly transmit the virus to others who may be much more at risk. I don't have that right. I would hope that you agree that you don't have that right either.

You don't know all the facts about this disease either. Be honest. And there are an infinite number of viruses and other diseases that we all might be passing one from another. Once again, unless you enclose yourself in a safe room, you are going to come in contact with diseases. So, what? We are never going to touch one another or stand within six feet for the rest of our lives? And if we violate that dictum we are not socially responsible? That is a kind of society that smothers and that I and many others like me would never want to be a part of. But if you are afraid of passing something on to someone, you should stay at home. Young people should be moving forward with their lives.

 

[Dokey]

It's almost exclusively old people that are dying. Just keep the kids on the campus and don't send them home. They'll be fine. Furthermore, they will build a herd immunity and keep the rest of us safer. About half the deaths have been in nursing homes. 84% of deaths are people who are over 65. The kids are fine, pretty much invulnerable to this very contagious but fairly weak virus. Oh, but here I go with facts, silly me.

Your attitude will succeed in spreading the virus. You are not going to be able to contain students on campus. They eat, go to bars, fill arenas and stadiums. I wouldn’t call you silly, just dangerous.

 

[JonathanXIV]

Or it may be way over counted. Anyway, the 2.2 million is not going to come close to happening. Thank God.

How can it possibly “over counted?” Come on man.

 

[JonathanXIV]

You don't know all the facts about this disease either. Be honest. And there are an infinite number of viruses and other diseases that we all might be passing one from another. Once again, unless you enclose yourself in a safe room, you are going to come in contact with diseases. So, what? We are never going to touch one another or stand within six feet for the rest of our lives? And if we violate that dictum we are not socially responsible? That is a kind of society that smothers and that I and many others like me would never want to be a part of. But if you are afraid of passing something on to someone, you should stay at home. Young people should be moving forward with their lives.

Yes there are an "infinite" (note, while there are a lot of viruses and diseases, it is considerably less than "infinite") number of viruses and diseases that we might be passing to one another. What's your point? They represent the baseline. COVID-19 is a new virus for which we have no immunity, have a limited understanding of how to deal with it currently, and has killed over 200,000 people worldwide in a few months. The fact that you insist on not understanding how this is different is mind boggling, and a little disturbing. But what's most disturbing is your insistence of not recognizing our collective responsibility to one another. Like it or not, we are connected to one another. And should act accordingly.

 

[ScottCT]

Roger G wants people to die and he doesn't care how many.

 

[hoopsfan22]

Roger G wants people to die and he doesn't care how many.

Dr. Oz said 2-3% mortality rate among school aged children was A-OK so long as the good ol' USA "gets its mojo back." Texas Lt. Gov said "there are things more important than living" in reference to going back to normal. That guy also said that "old people would be willing to sacrifice their lives for the economy." How many of you older folks that follow WCBB would be willing to die tomorrow so the Dow Jones gets back to 30,000? Believe it or not there is a large swath of this country that just wants to say screw it and go right back to the way things were two months ago because we're American and ain't no invisible disease gonna take away our freedums.

 

[JonathanXIV]

I suspect everyone’s viewpoint would be a lot different if they knew they were in the 2-3% group.

 

[Biff]

So once again we've crossed the line. This is not a forum for political and social opinion cross chatter. Covid-19 or not. Further discussion in this tone can be undertaken in the appropriate forum, not here.