Noth Carolina's Tourney NCAA Games Out

[dennismenace]

The obvious scare tactic and factually delinquent video you posted relies on the logic that a law requiring the use of a sexually specific bathroom based upon you're birth certificate will somehow stop sexual predators from walking into the opposite bathroom and molesting a woman. Sexual predators can walk into any bathroom and do that now. Rape and molestation are illegal and carry severe (not severe enough) penalties and yet they still happen far too often. What's this new magic law going to do that the existing laws requiring jail time aren't already doing? How about strengthening the existing laws and punishments to prevent sexual predation period? Or does that make too much sense?

The only thing this law is meant to do is target, demean and specifically exclude a minority group from living the life that makes them most comfortable.

Of course this blanket statement would perhaps be based on universal truth. Who says making people "comfortable" is justice. What about the people people who are not confused about their gender? Why do they have to make people "comfortable' who think they are something different from what their physiology indicates ? "Truth is whatever
I think it is" (and everyone else has to agree?). This is moral relativism but applied on an absolute basis. You just made an absolute statement about truth ("the only thing......)
which is relative to persons who both agree and disagree. Are you "absolutely" sure?

 

[jibsey]

I read something today where Roy Williams was saying he didn't expect to be called in NC's investigation by the NCAA and was looking forward to things getting back to normal. This SOB thinks that his basketball team is going to skate without even a slap on the wrist. Am I nuts or is this possible?

 

[uchusky32]

I read something today where Roy Williams was saying he didn't expect to be called in NC's investigation by the NCAA and was looking forward to things getting back to normal. This SOB thinks that his basketball team is going to skate without even a slap on the wrist. Am I nuts or is this possible?

Your nuts and this is possible.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

Your nuts and this is possible.

You forgot to mention that Roy is the victim in all of this.

Its right-up there with Ken Starr defending Art Briles and that the mess at Baylor is the media's fault.

In extended interview, Ken Starr says media outlets did ex-Baylor coach Art Briles a 'grave injustice' during scandal | SportsDay

 

[fatlucy]

Of course this blanket statement would perhaps be based on universal truth. Who says making people "comfortable" is justice. What about the people people who are not confused about their gender? Why do they have to make people "comfortable' who think they are something different from what their physiology indicates ? "Truth is whatever
I think it is" (and everyone else has to agree?). This is moral relativism but applied on an absolute basis. You just made an absolute statement about truth ("the only thing.)
which is relative to persons who both agree and disagree. Are you "absolutely" sure?

The only thing I'm absolutely sure about is that there are cruel people in this world who will spend any amount of resources and make any argument to support thier hateful beliefs about other people. Those lucky enough to be sure of thier gender should just use the bathroom they feel most comfortable in, wipe thier arse and move on with thier day.

 

[UConn990411]

Of course this blanket statement would perhaps be based on universal truth. Who says making people "comfortable" is justice. What about the people people who are not confused about their gender? Why do they have to make people "comfortable' who think they are something different from what their physiology indicates ? "Truth is whatever
I think it is" (and everyone else has to agree?). This is moral relativism but applied on an absolute basis. You just made an absolute statement about truth ("the only thing.)
which is relative to persons who both agree and disagree. Are you "absolutely" sure?

I've read this post a couple times, and still have absolutely no idea what the poster is trying to say.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Lets just ignore for a moment the absurdity of the portion of the law that would require EVERYBODY to carry around their birth certificate if they want to use a public restroom (or subject themselves to being personally violated) in order for the law to be enforced. The real damage is that it legalizes discrimination based on sexual orientation, which impacts many many more than the fictitious .04% number used in the post above.

However, I do understand that their are people that just don't get it.

How so? Caitlin Jenner likes women by the way.

I'm not saying that the NC law is well written, but a state choosing to determine public facility usage by biological sex rather than "gender" is certainly logical. And while that may result in some tiny number of people being uncomfortable, it is a better solution than having the vast majority be uncomfortable.

As the father of a 13 year old girl, I certainly don't want her to be subject to biological males using the girls locker room and showers at school. This has already created many issues. It is not discrimination to treat a person in accordance with their biological sex. How they "identify" is really irrelevant.

 

[UConn990411]

How so? Caitlin Jenner likes women by the way.

I'm not saying that the NC law is well written, but a state choosing to determine public facility usage by biological sex rather than "gender" is certainly logical. And while that may result in some tiny number of people being uncomfortable, it is a better solution than having the vast majority be uncomfortable.

As the father of a 13 year old girl, I certainly don't want her to be subject to biological males using the girls locker room and showers at school. This has already created many issues. It is not discrimination to treat a person in accordance with their biological sex. How they "identify" is really irrelevant.

I find these takes to be hilarious.

I've never used the women's bathroom, but from what I understand, they have stalls. That makes it rather difficult to know a person's biological gender unless you force people to disclose it upfront.

But again, you seem to have no clue what this law is really about. It essentially permits companies to discriminate against LGBT members without giving gay or transgender people the chance for recourse.

The bathroom debate is how they've framed it to the public to try to scare parents like yourself onto their side. But that's only a minor aspect of this law.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I find these takes to be hilarious.

I've never used the women's bathroom, but from what I understand, they have stalls. That makes it rather difficult to know a person's biological gender unless you force people to disclose it upfront.

But again, you seem to have no clue what this law is really about. It essentially permits companies to discriminate against LGBT members without giving gay or transgender people the chance for recourse.

The bathroom debate is how they've framed it to the public to try to scare parents like yourself onto their side. But that's only a minor aspect of this law.

That's a load of crap. All was well when there were no laws, then Charlotte passed a law and NC responded with their invalidating the Charlotte ordinance. This has nothing to do with discrimination, and everything to do with protecting privacy rights.

Bathrooms have stalls...with 2 inch gaps on the side. Go to Europe and you can see proper stalls. Bathrooms aren't even the issue, the issue is locker rooms and public changing facilities at pools, gyms etc. That's the real concern. If we had proper stalls I don't think anyone would even care about bathrooms. It's pretty easy to tell biological sex when in a communal shower.

 

[ctchamps]

I've read this post a couple times, and still have absolutely no idea what the poster is trying to say.

It's not that difficult. It's @Spartacus talk.

 

[ctchamps]

That's a load of crap. All was well when there were no laws, then Charlotte passed a law and NC responded with their invalidating the Charlotte ordinance. This has nothing to do with discrimination, and everything to do with protecting privacy rights.

Bathrooms have stalls...with 2 inch gaps on the side. Go to Europe and you can see proper stalls. Bathrooms aren't even the issue, the issue is locker rooms and public changing facilities at pools, gyms etc. That's the real concern. If we had proper stalls I don't think anyone would even care about bathrooms. It's pretty easy to tell biological sex when in a communal shower.

And herein lies the problem. How do you accommodate the sensitivities of everyone. Especially when the issue first comes to the public's attention.

It must be devastating to have the genetic code that provides one set of physiologic development while the mental and emotional code develops differently. How do we come up with a solution for these people while addressing the concerns of the majority of people who have a different set of needs?

 

[Scottzer]

How the law could rewrite building codes is how it could cost business owners money. Now, I'm sorry, but 1/2500th of the population is not significant enough to fret over. The Biggest Obstacle to Gender Neutral Bathrooms? Building Codes.

What percentage of the population do you have to comprise in order for it to be wrong for people to discriminate against you?

And how does letting transgender people use the bathroom they identify with (apparently 1 in every 2500 bathroom visits) cost businesses money?

 

[HuskyHawk]

And herein lies the problem. How do you accommodate the sensitivities of everyone. Especially when the issue first comes to the public's attention.

It must be devastating to have the genetic code that provides one set of physiologic development while the mental and emotional code develops differently. How do we come up with a solution for these people while addressing the concerns of the majority of people who have a different set of needs?

Mental health counseling would be a start. There is nothing biological or genetic going on with this. Scientists reject that notion. Most of these people need mental health help to align their gender with their sex and aren't getting it. It's sad that people are so afraid of making them feel bad about themselves that they won't get the help they need.

I certainly do favor the private, locking "family" bathrooms at most public locations. That's a benefit to many people, parents with small children of the opposite sex as well as anyone who is transgender.

 

[sledog]

in WSJ: ND fires broadside at NCAA policy

The NCAA Isn’t a Moral Arbiter—Nor Should It Be

 

[ctchamps]

Mental health counseling would be a start. There is nothing biological or genetic going on with this. Scientists reject that notion. Most of these people need mental health help to align their gender with their sex and aren't getting it. It's sad that people are so afraid of making them feel bad about themselves that they won't get the help they need.

I certainly do favor the private, locking "family" bathrooms at most public locations. That's a benefit to many people, parents with small children of the opposite sex as well as anyone who is transgender.

The epigenome: the next substrate for engineering | Genome Biology | Full Text
From this article these few paragraphs summarize the complexity of the mechanics of the epigenome (chromatin) activity on the DNA that goes into play during transcription which is the process of converting the DNA composed of nucleotides to the construction of molecules that function in the body (proteins composed of amino acids).

"There exist a surprisingly large number of epigenome modifications. The combinatorial interactions between these modifications and other chromatin-bound proteins increase this complexity even further. In fact, most chromatin states that are associated with regions such as active promoters and enhancers are characterized by specific combinations of chromatin modifications [72]. Why did this combinatorial complexity evolve? One reason could be that single modifications alone are not sufficient to account for all the distinct states that need to be specified or marked. Perhaps a more intriguing possibility is that combinatorial interactions set the stage for context-dependent regulation and enhance locus-specific recruitment.

With context dependency, one modification could mask, modulate, or enhance the binding interaction of a reader of a second modification."




"Combinatorial modifications could also prime a gene to follow one of multiple possible paths. Certain domains of the embryonic stem (ES) cell genome possess both activating and repressive histone modifications, known as bivalent domains; these are typically enriched at developmentally important genes [76, 77]. It is proposed that genes that have bivalent domains are poised for either activation or repression, depending on the differentiation path that the cell ultimately follows.

Gene expression is precisely controlled in time and space by the integration of this diverse array of PTM signals and the actions of multiple chromatin-regulating factors operating in multifactorial ways [3, 78]."

This last paragraph is the salient paragraph IMO regarding the transgender issue or any medical issue.

 

[fatlucy]

........I think I need a few more biology degrees to understand that last article but as a father of a 14 year old daughter and as a real estate developer I can speak to the former arguments.

1. we've already spend over a trillion dollars since 1992 accommodating wheel chairs and other handicapped workers, the costs of which vastly outweigh putting in unisex bathrooms which are already a popular trend with developers bc of the flexability and lower cost to put in fewer unisex bathrooms as compared to putting in a larger equal number of separate sex facilities. Maybe you think the number of handicapped is "not significant enough to to fret over" but we've decided, correctly, to spend that money in every publically accessible building for what amounts to about 1% of the population.

2. As a father of a similarly aged girl, I understand your fatherly concern but as I reminded everyone in my earlier post, rape and sexual assault are already illegal and any predator can walk into a women's bathroom and rape a girl with nothing but a swinging door to stop him. No predator is going to stop bc a law that carries no significant penalty says he's not allowed to be in the ladies room. (It's really a stupid argument) If you want to protect our daughters, strengthen the rape and sexual assault laws to the point that they're substantially effective. (Start at Stamford University)

3. The Catholic Church and its institutions should never ever open their mouths about morals. I was raised Catholic and I'm embarrassed and discusted by the Catholic Churches very deliberate recent coverup and facilitation of sexual abuse. That's just to start.

4. The above arguments really amount to arguing the very propaganda spread by the bigots who wrote the law. The fact is this law was enacted by a minority of the population in North Carolina with the sole intent to facilitate discrimination against the LBGT community.

It never ceases to amaze me how we repeat the same bigoted mistakes generation after generation. We established this country based on freedom from oppression, that all people are created equally....not when it's convenient or comfortable, or what you're used to. it's not easy being the greatest country in the world but so bodies got to do it.

 

[dennismenace]

And herein lies the problem. How do you accommodate the sensitivities of everyone. Especially when the issue first comes to the public's attention.

It must be devastating to have the genetic code that provides one set of physiologic development while the mental and emotional code develops differently. How do we come up with a solution for these people while addressing the concerns of the majority of people who have a different set of needs?

John Hopkins just published a study that it is not settled science that we are talking about a genetic issue (develpmental?) . That (a solution for both) would be ideal but ideal is not always practical. Ten percent of the population is left handed (including me). If you are right handed, have you ever tried using your left for everything if your right hand/arm was injured? Not fun. But if you are left handed you learn to deal with it and accept the fact that you can learn to deal with it and accept it.
The more you use your opposite hand the more your brain and hand develop the capacity to adjust. While this is an extremely oversimplified example and I am not unsympathetic to others stress and even emotional pain, it is unrealistic to expect the world to rotate around me.

 

[fatlucy]

John Hopkins just published a study that it is not settled science that we are talking about a genetic issue (develpmental?) . That (a solution for both) would be ideal but ideal is not always practical. Ten percent of the population is left handed (including me). If you are right handed, have you ever tried using your left for everything if your right hand/arm was injured? Not fun. But if you are left handed you learn to deal with it and accept the fact that you can learn to deal with it and accept it.
The more you use your opposite hand the more your brain and hand develop the capacity to adjust. While this is an extremely oversimplified example and I am not unsympathetic to others stress and even emotional pain, it is unrealistic to expect the world to rotate around me.

You would probably have a different opinion if you and all left handed people were being victimized and predjudiced against bc you're different than the majority.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

...I think I need a few more biology degrees to understand that last article but as a father of a 14 year old daughter and as a real estate developer I can speak to the former arguments.

1. we've already spend over a trillion dollars since 1992 accommodating wheel chairs and other handicapped workers, the costs of which vastly outweigh putting in unisex bathrooms which are already a popular trend with developers bc of the flexability and lower cost to put in fewer unisex bathrooms as compared to putting in a larger equal number of separate sex facilities. Maybe you think the number of handicapped is "not significant enough to to fret over" but we've decided, correctly, to spend that money in every publically accessible building for what amounts to about 1% of the population.

2. As a father of a similarly aged girl, I understand your fatherly concern but as I reminded everyone in my earlier post, rape and sexual assault are already illegal and any predator can walk into a women's bathroom and rape a girl with nothing but a swinging door to stop him. No predator is going to stop bc a law that carries no significant penalty says he's not allowed to be in the ladies room. (It's really a stupid argument) If you want to protect our daughters, strengthen the rape and sexual assault laws to the point that they're substantially effective. (Start at Stamford University)

3. The Catholic Church and its institutions should never ever open their mouths about morals. I was raised Catholic and I'm embarrassed and discusted by the Catholic Churches very deliberate recent coverup and facilitation of sexual abuse. That's just to start.

4. The above arguments really amount to arguing the very propaganda spread by the bigots who wrote the law. The fact is this law was enacted by a minority of the population in North Carolina with the sole intent to facilitate discrimination against the LBGT community.

It never ceases to amaze me how we repeat the same bigoted mistakes generation after generation. We established this country based on freedom from oppression, that all people are created equally....not when it's convenient or comfortable, or what you're used to. it's not easy being the greatest country in the world but so bodies got to do it.

Due to older building and new social norms, many places in Europe have been utilizing unisex bathrooms for years with very few problems. There is no data in Europe or the US that supports the notion that allowing transgender people from using their 'identity' gender to pick a bathroom increases the chances that anyone will be assaulted in a bathroom.

I never really cared about this issue myself until I started reading both sides and I began to draw too many uncomfortable parallels between the social conservatives' reasons to support such bills with the same laws that used to be in place to support 'separate but equal' facilities for whites and non-whites, which, not ironically included bathroom facilities. That was a hug red flag to me.

Also agree about the Catholic Church. I used to be Catholic and they lost all moral rights over the last two decades of abuse cover-ups.

 

[dennismenace]

You would probably have a different opinion if you and all left handed people were being victimized and predjudiced against bc you're different than the majority.

I chose not to consider myself a victim or prejudiced against. I'm very happy and learned a long time ago to accept life on life's terms. I loved baseball as a kid. I was too short to play first base. Second base, third base, shortstop and catcher were out for lefty's. Guess what? I survived. I became an outfielder. At a somewhat recent convention of the Blind they made a resolution and declared that people should stop calling them "visually challenged". They said "We're blind, we can take it. We are not going to fall to pieces"

 

[7774]

I chose not to consider myself a victim or prejudiced against. I'm very happy and learned a long time ago to accept life on life's terms. I loved baseball as a kid. I was too short to play first base. Second base, third base, shortstop and catcher were out for lefty's. Guess what? I survived. I became an outfielder. At a somewhat recent convention of the Blind they made a resolution and declared that people should stop calling them "visually challenged". They said "We're blind, we can take it. We are not going to fall to pieces"

It's so amazing that you think this issue is analogous to you not being good at baseball. Probably the most I've laughed on this site in a year. And we're talking about a place where Chief posts.

 

[dennismenace]

It's so amazing that you think this issue is analogous to you not being good at baseball. Probably the most I've laughed on this site in a year. And we're talking about a place where Chief posts.

Had nothing to do with my "not being good" ; I simply was not allowed to play certain positions because I was left handed. I did play (outfield). I adjusted to reality instead of playing victim and sorry for myself. I also did very well at reading comprehension.

 

[7774]

Had nothing to do with my "not being good" ; I simply was not allowed to play certain positions because I was left handed. I did play (outfield). I adjusted to reality instead of playing victim and sorry for myself. I also did very well at reading comprehension.

Yeah man I hate to break it to you, but if being left handed prevents you from playing certain positions in baseball as a kid, you're not good. We're not talking about the majors here.

 

[dennismenace]

Yeah man I hate to break it to you, but if being left handed prevents you from playing certain positions in baseball as a kid, you're not good. We're not talking about the majors here.

Yeah man I hate to break it to you, but if being left handed prevents you from playing certain positions in baseball as a kid, you're not good. We're not talking about the majors here.

Please try reading and comprehending my posts. I did play. Outfield. You don't (normally) see left handed catchers or second and third basemen or shortstops. There is a legitimate reason why. If you understand baseball you would understand that. I'll let you research that one.

 

[7774]

Please try reading and comprehending my posts. I did play. Outfield. You don't (normally) see left handed catchers or second and third basemen or shortstops. There is a legitimate reason why. If you understand baseball you would understand that. I'll let you research that one.

Yeah, I'm comprehending your posts. If you're playing the outfield in kid baseball it's not because you're left handed, it's because you're not that good. Again, this is not the majors. If you are actually good at baseball as a kid you're pitching and playing middle infield. Even as a left handed player. Teams in the Little League World Series have guys in the outfield that aren't that good .

 

[ctchamps]

John Hopkins just published a study that it is not settled science that we are talking about a genetic issue (develpmental?) . That (a solution for both) would be ideal but ideal is not always practical. Ten percent of the population is left handed (including me). If you are right handed, have you ever tried using your left for everything if your right hand/arm was injured? Not fun. But if you are left handed you learn to deal with it and accept the fact that you can learn to deal with it and accept it.
The more you use your opposite hand the more your brain and hand develop the capacity to adjust. While this is an extremely oversimplified example and I am not unsympathetic to others stress and even emotional pain, it is unrealistic to expect the world to rotate around me.

This is a quote from a Wikipedia article on Human Genetic Variation.

"Human genetic variation is the genetic differences both within and among populations. There may be multiple variants of any given gene in the human population (genes), leading to polymorphism. Many genes are not polymorphic, meaning that only a single allele is present in the population: the gene is then said to be fixed.[1] On average, in terms of DNA sequence all humans are 99.5% similar to any other humans.[2][3]"

The big question is how does that 0.5% difference account for the variation in fingerprints, ear or retinal patterns, facial features or any other physical differences that are observed in the population? How does it account for the vast distribution curves of skills and behaviors?

It can't. Or at the very least it's obscured by our limitations to observe the processes within cells. The very difficult article I linked above discusses a direction in research that wants to explore how the assemblage process may cause variations in molecular assemblage (gene expression) and hence create at least some if not most of the variations that exist in the human population. In that article what is being discussed is the hypothesis that you can have genetic similarities in people but the assemblage systems are slightly different and that process contributes to physical and behavioral differences. If correct than there are biologically developmental differences in spite of genetic similarities or non genetic developmental differences - genes are not the contributors of human variations in these cases.

Visualize three identical building lots with all the exact same unassembled building materials on the lot and there are identical blueprints for a particular type of house on all three lots. That scenario is analogous to the role of DNA and genes. To insure identical outcomes.

Then picture three different builders with different skills at reading the blue prints and/or differences in construction capabilities. These builders are analogous to the epigenome in the above article. The chances now of getting identical structures is greatly diminished even though the genes are not the problem.

So the John Hopkins article is correct that the information on sexual behavior deviation from some subjective norm has yet to be determined as genetic. And that may be the limitation of a completed understanding of all the genes or it may be a developmental error from the assemblage process even though the genes are not different.

 

[ctchamps]

...I think I need a few more biology degrees to understand that last article but as a father of a 14 year old daughter and as a real estate developer I can speak to the former arguments.

1. we've already spend over a trillion dollars since 1992 accommodating wheel chairs and other handicapped workers, the costs of which vastly outweigh putting in unisex bathrooms which are already a popular trend with developers bc of the flexability and lower cost to put in fewer unisex bathrooms as compared to putting in a larger equal number of separate sex facilities. Maybe you think the number of handicapped is "not significant enough to to fret over" but we've decided, correctly, to spend that money in every publically accessible building for what amounts to about 1% of the population.

2. As a father of a similarly aged girl, I understand your fatherly concern but as I reminded everyone in my earlier post, rape and sexual assault are already illegal and any predator can walk into a women's bathroom and rape a girl with nothing but a swinging door to stop him. No predator is going to stop bc a law that carries no significant penalty says he's not allowed to be in the ladies room. (It's really a stupid argument) If you want to protect our daughters, strengthen the rape and sexual assault laws to the point that they're substantially effective. (Start at Stamford University)

3. The Catholic Church and its institutions should never ever open their mouths about morals. I was raised Catholic and I'm embarrassed and discusted by the Catholic Churches very deliberate recent coverup and facilitation of sexual abuse. That's just to start.

4. The above arguments really amount to arguing the very propaganda spread by the bigots who wrote the law. The fact is this law was enacted by a minority of the population in North Carolina with the sole intent to facilitate discrimination against the LBGT community.

It never ceases to amaze me how we repeat the same bigoted mistakes generation after generation. We established this country based on freedom from oppression, that all people are created equally....not when it's convenient or comfortable, or what you're used to. it's not easy being the greatest country in the world but so bodies got to do it.

Very well expressed. I attempted to explain that epigenome article in building terms in the post prior to this. Read the red wording first. Hope it helps.

I live in NC and intend to vote against the current governor based on this one issue which is unfortunately all I have to base my voting decision given that I just moved to the area. Like you I have a similar take on the issue. But I diverge in two subtly distinct ways.

There was a food thread not too long ago in which the majority of posters in that thread were excited about the various places to eat good steaks. Two posters however presented a different point of view about beef. One expressed his distaste for beef. The other was extremely contemptuous of beef eaters based on moral principles and expressed this contempt vigorously. The reaction by most of the posters in that thread was extremely negative to this second poster. The first poster did not garner the same reaction.

The reason I express this is that it's human nature for adults to be angry and resist change when change is demanded. So on grounds of "my moral compass" I'm against the law, but I'm also concerned that forcing people to do something against their will has negative consequences that reverberate immediately and for some time to follow.

In addition take FriarJ'a appearance in any thread and observe the reactions of posters. We establish tribes (this is the UConn men's bb tribe) and outsiders are vehemently discouraged. Heck some of us hit UConn women's bb or UConn football posters while others don't. Thus there are subdivisions in tribes.

There are tribes in NC that live basically decent moral lives by their definition. They don't see this issue the same way we do. I strongly disagree with their point of view but I don't want to apply a reverse bigotry by denigrating them. They have "Christian" principles as their foundation. I respect their position even as I want to have a dialogue with them to express my contrarian position and hope that something I express can offer them a change in their take on the issue.

The second subtle difference is with regards to fear. Fear is not often rational. Applying logic to a person in fear is often as irrational as the fear itself. A lot of these people have fear over the issue. To discount this fear is callous imo.

Obviously there are bigots within the larger group. But I'm not sure the vast majority of people who support the law are bigots.

 

[AtlHusky]

Putting North Carolina's Anti-LGBT Law to the Test

 

[fatlucy]

Putting North Carolina's Anti-LGBT Law to the Test

Well that should put it all in perspective for you guys. The law is blatant discrimination, and it sucks.

 

[ctchamps]

Well that should put it all in perspective for you guys. The law is blatant discrimination, and it sucks.

Check out "The Danish Girl" with Eddie Redmayne.