North Carolina receives amended notice of allegations

[UcMiami]

I think the moral outrage is there because while 'collegiate education' and big time 'money ball programs' do not fit in the same sentence for a number of the players on a number of teams and no one really wants to look too closely because every school probably has an individual horror story or two specific to individual athletes, UNC is a very different situation. This was not some random spot check by NCAA investigators, it was not a case of someone dropping a dime to the NCAA about a specific violation - this was a media fire storm served up to them on a platter with the college creating a huge investigative document outlining systemic corruption of academics with the goal of producing academic eligibility for athletes that should not have been allowed to compete on the field or court.

We all accept the wink and nod nature of NCAA investigation/enforcement as part of the game. There is no way that you could build and fund an organization large enough to actual investigate 400 D1 colleges let alone all three levels of schools. But when situations are exposed regardless of how blind the NCAA has tried to be then their is an expectation that the NCAA will actually do its job. They have a document prepared by UNC that states something like half of an NCAA championship team including most of the starters were committing academic fraud while competing with the knowledge and active support of at least some of the athletic department. And that this fraud was systemic and of very long duration. They have slides of a presentation to multiple programs at UNC outlining the issues that the cessation of this academic fraud would have on their athletes and how they would need to work on new solutions to keep academically inept athletes eligible. And they have public statements by some of the athletes that the knowledge of this fraud went to the top.

That the NCAA is coming down with a sledge hammer on the women's program which everyone knows was peripheral to the creating and maintenance of this fraud while blatantly ignoring the mountain of evidence it already has that UNC football and men's basketball were at the heart of it is a level of corruption at the heart of the NCAA that is trying to dwarf the corruption at UNC. If this is in fact how this plays out the NCAA has abdicated 50% of its responsibility and reason for existence. It should simple close up its enforcement division, change its rule book to only include rules related to actual scheduling and game play, and publish a second book with a 'best practices that should be followed if convenient for recruiting and educating athletes' guidebook.

It will be in effect saying, just make sure you corrupt not just the athlete's academic course but that of the whole institution to which you are currently attached for rations and housing. And make sure when reporting academic progress to us you fabricate anything that doesn't look good, because as long as we have something on paper that says you are doing your job, we will ignore ALL evidence to the contrary. And whatever you do, don't write anything down that contradicts your lies to us. Oh, yeah, and have an in-place fall guy should you ignore any of the previous advice.

That last piece is exactly what Chris Carter and Warren Sapp told NFL rookies regarding staying out of legal trouble as professional athletes.

 

[UcMiami]

The problem for the NCAA is that the UNC case is an academic scandal that is typically out of their purview. The last time they took on a major case that did not involve recruiting issues was Penn State where the NCAA entered into uncharted waters and got their butts handed to them by the courts when the university sued.

Regarding UNC...the two most important individuals involved refuse to testify and can't be compelled by the NCAA as they are no longer UNC employees. The other "star" witness's testimony has been tainted by possibly illegal activities on her part......the NCAA knows that if UNC took this to court the NCAA wouldn't have a leg to stand on...thus you have a more limited approach which will most likely be accepted by all parties.......

I think you are wrong - the NCAA has a voluminous document produced and published by UNC that the university allowed its employees to create and run a longstanding fraud which disproportionally benefitted its athletic students - the very essence of 'lack of institutional control'. UNC doesn't have a leg to stand on in a court, and the last thing they want to have is court testimony from players and coaches and those former employees who would not be able to decline to testify (nor lose their huge payouts that have insured their silence.) Crowder on the stand testifying to the calls from assistant coaches and probably Roy himself - no thanks.

 

[Charliebball]

I think the moral outrage is there because while 'collegiate education' and big time 'money ball programs' do not fit in the same sentence for a number of the players on a number of teams and no one really wants to look too closely because every school probably has an individual horror story or two specific to individual athletes, UNC is a very different situation. This was not some random spot check by NCAA investigators, it was not a case of someone dropping a dime to the NCAA about a specific violation - this was a media fire storm served up to them on a platter with the college creating a huge investigative document outlining systemic corruption of academics with the goal of producing academic eligibility for athletes that should not have been allowed to compete on the field or court.

That last piece is exactly what Chris Carter and Warren Sapp told NFL rookies regarding staying out of legal trouble as professional athletes.

I appreciate your sentiments but as I said the NCAA is treading lightly on the UNC situation for both political and legal reasons. They know that much of the evidence is impermissible in court and they don't want another Penn State situation. If nothing else the three million dollar self imposed investigation has led to numerous changes in the way UNC handles their academic affairs. So if the goal is to correct the academic situation then that has mostly been accomplished. UNC's academic accreditation has been threatened and will be revisited next year. UNC basketball and football teams have suffered though years of recruiting purgatory which will continue until the final ruling is in effect. Many believe that women's soccer and basketball teams may sustain penalties and are scapegoats for the big money sports. There may be some truth in that, however the facts do show that those two programs were most closely linked to the academic adviser in question. Finally, remember that the majority of students taking these classes were not athletes, they were regular kids looking for easy classes..............so shame on UNC.........hopefully other schools will take a hard look to see if they are in the same boat.............believe me, many are.

 

[Charliebball]

I think you are wrong - the NCAA has a voluminous document produced and published by UNC that the university allowed its employees to create and run a longstanding fraud which disproportionally benefitted its athletic students - the very essence of 'lack of institutional control'. UNC doesn't have a leg to stand on in a court, and the last thing they want to have is court testimony from players and coaches and those former employees who would not be able to decline to testify (nor lose their huge payouts that have insured their silence.) Crowder on the stand testifying to the calls from assistant coaches and probably Roy himself - no thanks.

Did you think that Penn State had a leg to stand on in that vile case? I sure didn't..................my opinion is based on attorney driven articles not by grandstanding sports columnists............. I'm not just pulling these ideas out of the air..........frankly I'm not that smart!!!

 

[HoopsFan21]

Did you think that Penn State had a leg to stand on in that vile case? I sure didn't...my opinion is based on attorney driven articles not by grandstanding sports columnists... I'm not just pulling these ideas out of the air.....frankly I'm not that smart!!!

Penn State had one kid that may or may not have been molested by a former employee in the football locker room shower that may or may not have been witnessed by an assistant football coach whose own story about what he saw/heard changed. The AD and a university VP were notified by the head football coach about what one of his assistants saw, and he took most of the heat for not doing enough about something of which he only had a secondhand account. The NCAA and media's assertions of a cover up to protect the football program, which sucked at the time anyway, were a stretch at best, but you dangle the bait of cover up and child molestation, and everyone wants heads on a platter forget about due process and establishment of culpability. To this day, no one in the matter has been convicted of any cover up that the NCAA used to justify their sanctions. The University itself bent over and went along with whatever the NCAA dictated. The only reason the sanctions were rolled back halfway through was due to third party lawsuits and the NCAA's desire to keep their internal communications secret lest they be dragged into an actual court of law and forced to testify under oath. Ironically, the NCAA has since published guidelines about what schools and coaches should do in this situation, and at least from a coach's standpoint (which was the lightning rod that allowed the NCAA to make the athletics connection) they dictate that you do what Joe Paterno did.

 

[GiladKatzDeli]

The more you read about the UNC scandal, the more you realize how utterly ridiculous the postseason ban that UConn has was. They were banned a year for going to class (and getting poor grades) in a year in which that specific rule didn't apply. By this standard, UNC should receive a multi-year ban, essentially the "death penalty".

 

[HoopsFan21]

The more you read about the UNC scandal, the more you realize how utterly ridiculous the postseason ban that UConn has was. They were banned a year for going to class (and getting poor grades) in a year in which that specific rule didn't apply. By this standard, UNC should receive a multi-year ban, essentially the "death penalty".

Yep extremely frustrating to say the least.

 

[Charliebball]

My point based on what I

The more you read about the UNC scandal, the more you realize how utterly ridiculous the postseason ban that UConn has was. They were banned a year for going to class (and getting poor grades) in a year in which that specific rule didn't apply. By this standard, UNC should receive a multi-year ban, essentially the "death penalty".

Look at the bright side.................. now they'll know how to do it right the next time!!!!!!!!!!

 

[UcMiami]

Did you think that Penn State had a leg to stand on in that vile case? I sure didn't...my opinion is based on attorney driven articles not by grandstanding sports columnists... I'm not just pulling these ideas out of the air.....frankly I'm not that smart!!!

As concerns the NCAA they had a very solid leg to stand on - it was completely outside the NCAA purview and had no effect on either student athletes or the athletic competition. Emmert and the NCAA were simply grand standing to insert themselves into that case. It was vile, it was criminal, and it tarnished PSU and the coach and the administration, but it had very little to do with the NCAA.

 

[CocoHusky]

Because the NCAA has preferred to present itself as being somewhat evenhanded and reasonable. But this blatant ignoring of mountains of evidence to protect one of its franchise programs is breath-taking, even for the NCAA especially after nailing Cal Tech. Just stunning.

NCAA hammers Caltech, but other schools deserve to be nailed

Thanks for saying it!

 

[CocoHusky]

Penn State had one kid that may or may not have been molested by a former employee in the football locker room shower that may or may not have been witnessed by an assistant football coach whose own story about what he saw/heard changed. The AD and a university VP were notified by the head football coach about what one of his assistants saw, and he took most of the heat for not doing enough about something of which he only had a secondhand account. The NCAA and media's assertions of a cover up to protect the football program, which sucked at the time anyway, were a stretch at best, but you dangle the bait of cover up and child molestation, and everyone wants heads on a platter forget about due process and establishment of culpability. To this day, no one in the matter has been convicted of any cover up that the NCAA used to justify their sanctions. The University itself bent over and went along with whatever the NCAA dictated. The only reason the sanctions were rolled back halfway through was due to third party lawsuits and the NCAA's desire to keep their internal communications secret lest they be dragged into an actual court of law and forced to testify under oath. Ironically, the NCAA has since published guidelines about what schools and coaches should do in this situation, and at least from a coach's standpoint (which was the lightning rod that allowed the NCAA to make the athletics connection) they dictate that you do what Joe Paterno did.

That was one too many.

 

[Bayareahusky]

I am late to the discussion and this may have been addressed..... probably has...... but if NCAA is hands off on account of fact that this is academic issue.... why did they slam us for GPA issue?

 

[Charliebball]

For those Boneyarders willing to hear UNC's side of the story

As wasn’t predicted, the worst isn’t coming to UNC - Robesonian - robesonian.com

 

[HoopsFan21]

That was one too many.

True, but again the whole firestorm was over a school, particularly the football coach, covering up mass child molestation for the sake of preventing bad press about the football program. That's what caused everyone to want to burn the place to the ground. As it turned out, not only was there not mass molestation going on campus, but to this day no cover up has ever been proven, let alone having been done so to protect a fledgling football program. But hey it didn't stop the NCAA from trying to kill PSU football. Over what exactly? Sandusky maybe having incidental contact with a kid in a shower and some school administrators not taking it seriously enough because all they had was a secondhand report that was borderline at best? The shower incident which was what set off the fireworks ultimately saw the child rape charges dropped because there was not enough evidence to convict other than the assistant football coach's shaky and changeable account of the incident, though Sandusky was convicted on a few lesser charges. It was a huge rush to judgement by many, and the NCAA only came down on PSU because they wanted the positive press as their own internal emails admit. Kind of makes you wonder what else they are hiding that they were willing to roll back those sanctions so quickly to avoid discovery, an action by the NCAA that was unprecedented. The notion that the NCAA is fair and impartial is laughable. They hit the schools they can when they can (especially the ones with zero backbone like a PSU and UConn), and if there's a school and situation of which they can make an example to prove how strict they are with the rules, they go all in.

 

[Kibitzer]

For those Boneyarders willing to hear UNC's side of the story

As wasn’t predicted, the worst isn’t coming to UNC - Robesonian - robesonian.com

Classic example of blaming The Messenger (Raleigh News & Observer) for The Message (five Level I violations).

Obfuscation redefined.

 

[UcMiami]

For those Boneyarders willing to hear UNC's side of the story

As wasn’t predicted, the worst isn’t coming to UNC - Robesonian - robesonian.com

The second scandal, which cost the chancellor his job, was academic, but engulfed the athletics program because almost half of the 3,100 students who over a couple of decades took less-than-rigorous courses — no, they were not fake — in the African-American Studies program were athletes, and a worrisome percentage played either football or basketball.

It has been accurately reported that they were fake classes - a university course with no professor, no classes, no meetings, and 'papers' graded by a secretary with no academic standing is a fake class.

This is nice revisionist history buttering up to UNC and ignoring the fact that if it hadn't been for 'that' Raleigh newspaper UNC would have continued to deny there were 3100 fraudulent student/classes which their own report substantiates. I suggest this guy go back and reread the whole report that UNC published.

 

[Charliebball]

The second scandal, which cost the chancellor his job, was academic, but engulfed the athletics program because almost half of the 3,100 students who over a couple of decades took less-than-rigorous courses — no, they were not fake — in the African-American Studies program were athletes, and a worrisome percentage played either football or basketball.

It has been accurately reported that they were fake classes - a university course with no professor, no classes, no meetings, and 'papers' graded by a secretary with no academic standing is a fake class.

This is nice revisionist history buttering up to UNC and ignoring the fact that if it hadn't been for 'that' Raleigh newspaper UNC would have continued to deny there were 3100 fraudulent student/classes which their own report substantiates. I suggest this guy go back and reread the whole report that UNC published.

Here's a somewhat different take if you have time for some light listening from the ACC Sports Network

Two reasons why the UNC case is a bad fit for the NCAA - ACCSports.com

 

[uconnfan68]

I appreciate your sentiments but as I said the NCAA is treading lightly on the UNC situation for both political and legal reasons. They know that much of the evidence is impermissible in court and they don't want another Penn State situation. If nothing else the three million dollar self imposed investigation has led to numerous changes in the way UNC handles their academic affairs. So if the goal is to correct the academic situation then that has mostly been accomplished. UNC's academic accreditation has been threatened and will be revisited next year. UNC basketball and football teams have suffered though years of recruiting purgatory which will continue until the final ruling is in effect. Many believe that women's soccer and basketball teams may sustain penalties and are scapegoats for the big money sports. There may be some truth in that, however the facts do show that those two programs were most closely linked to the academic adviser in question. Finally, remember that the majority of students taking these classes were not athletes, they were regular kids looking for easy classes....so shame on UNC....hopefully other schools will take a hard look to see if they are in the same boat...believe me, many are.

At the very least they were fraudulent about whether student athletes were in good academic standing.

 

[uconnfan68]

True, but again the whole firestorm was over a school, particularly the football coach, covering up mass child molestation for the sake of preventing bad press about the football program. That's what caused everyone to want to burn the place to the ground. As it turned out, not only was there not mass molestation going on campus, but to this day no cover up has ever been proven, let alone having been done so to protect a fledgling football program. But hey it didn't stop the NCAA from trying to kill PSU football. Over what exactly? Sandusky maybe having incidental contact with a kid in a shower and some school administrators not taking it seriously enough because all they had was a secondhand report that was borderline at best? The shower incident which was what set off the fireworks ultimately saw the child rape charges dropped because there was not enough evidence to convict other than the assistant football coach's shaky and changeable account of the incident, though Sandusky was convicted on a few lesser charges. It was a huge rush to judgement by many, and the NCAA only came down on PSU because they wanted the positive press as their own internal emails admit. Kind of makes you wonder what else they are hiding that they were willing to roll back those sanctions so quickly to avoid discovery, an action by the NCAA that was unprecedented. The notion that the NCAA is fair and impartial is laughable. They hit the schools they can when they can (especially the ones with zero backbone like a PSU and UConn), and if there's a school and situation of which they can make an example to prove how strict they are with the rules, they go all in.

Sandusky maybe had incidental contact? Wow.

 

[sivad40]

Jay Bilas take on the ANOA. I think UCMiami might disagree with Jay.

 

[HoopsFan21]

Sandusky maybe had incidental contact? Wow.

Just going by how the jury decided and what charges ultimately resulted in convictions.

 

[Charliebball]

Jay Bilas take on the ANOA. I think UCMiami might disagree with Jay.

Very similar theory to the audio clip from the ACC network...........NCAA just doesn't have the jurisdiction/laws to handle the academic side of this issue.................very unsatisfying to those who want the "death penalty"............as I said earlier, NCAA would be taken to court if they tried to overreach here...................

 

[Charliebball]

From my perspective this article sums up the entire UNC debacle..............please feel free to disagree!!! I'm moving on to more pleasant subjects!!!!!!!!

Additional Thoughts on UNC's Amended NOA