NFL Draft

HuskyHawk

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A lot of people had Mac Jones as a 2nd round talent, lacking arm strength. Justin Fields has all the tools. Time will tell, but the amount to move up from 15 to 12 is a lot less than what you pay for 20 to 12. It was a shock that Fields was available at 12 at all.

Nobody had Jones as a 2nd round talent once they started breaking down film. The people doing mocks are idiots. Fields has all the tools, but there is no way to know who will be better. Ryan Leaf had better “tools” than Peyton Manning. Most of the NFL backups have better tools than Tom Brady. I think Fields was hurt by the fact that Haskins was so bad that he couldn’t even be kept on a rookie contract as a backup. The reality is that the grades on all these guys except Lawrence were not as high as everyone kept saying. Position players were a safer bet than trading up. I think the Bears overpaid.
 
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Nobody had Jones as a 2nd round talent once they started breaking down film. The people doing mocks are idiots. Fields has all the tools, but there is no way to know who will be better. Ryan Leaf had better “tools” than Peyton Manning. Most of the NFL backups have better tools than Tom Brady. I think Fields was hurt by the fact that Haskins was so bad that he couldn’t even be kept on a rookie contract as a backup. The reality is that the grades on all these guys except Lawrence were not as high as everyone kept saying. Position players were a safer bet than trading up. I think the Bears overpaid.
Who said I was referring to mock drafts? These are scouts and front office types being quoted below. As for the price, next year's first is going to be considered cheap if Fields pans out, compared to what other teams paid. Again, the price for the Patriots was not a first since they were only 3 spots back. As for Haskins, we can name a lot of busts from most of the big schools. USC has plenty of busts, Florida, Florida St., Texas, Alabama, every school has had QB busts in the last decade. Last, Brady had a super strong arm--people just neglected to note it because initially he excelled at short passes.

This is the main reason I am dubious about Mac Jones. I just think an NFL QB absolutely needs a decently strong arm to make the throws that force a D to respect you all around the field.


"He's not in that same conversation with the other guys," an AFC scout said in the same article. "He's going to distribute the ball for you. I think he makes (good) decisions. (But) what level of athlete is he? What can he do mobility-wise? I don't think he's got the arm talent that those upper-level guys have. But I think he's probably just as sharp, maybe a little bit more than those guys mentally."

"Where [Jones] comes up short is I don't think the talent level is there, from either an arm-strength standpoint or an athleticism standpoint."

Also:

"[Jones is] a stronger-armed Jake Fromm," said one area scout. "He distributes the ball well to all those great weapons. Jones has some ability. His arm is good enough, a little stronger than Jake's. Mac can anticipate, and sees the field well. I think he could have a career in the NFL similar to Matt Barkley."

Another team source who graded Jones (6-3, 214) down in the fourth round said they felt he was a shorter A.J. McCarron. Similar to McCarron, Jones was surrounded with a phenomenal set of wide receivers, a tough offensive line with future early-round picks, and a dynamic running game. Team sources say Jones did a good job of managing the game and getting the ball to his playmakers.

Jones could end up as a second-day pick who is a solid backup. He may be able to top out as a mid-level starter, like a Kirk Cousins.
 
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Loved the Gianta draft as a whole when you factor in that they loaded up on good picks for next year.
Didnt like the Toney pick at first but after watching the highlights, dear god. If he keeps his head on straight and stays healthy he's gonna be a highlight reel. His moves are death to a one on one tackler and even when he gets hit hes a tough son of a bitch to bring down.
Love rolling the dice on the second round player. He should have gone 1st round but slipped due to leg concerns. If they hit on this, that probably makes the draft an A. Hell it might be already due to the 2022 haul of picks.
Pretty clear Judge had his fingerprints on this draft strategy
 
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Loved the Gianta draft as a whole when you factor in that they loaded up on good picks for next year.
Didnt like the Toney pick at first but after watching the highlights, dear god. If he keeps his head on straight and stays healthy he's gonna be a highlight reel. His moves are death to a one on one tackler and even when he gets hit hes a tough son of a bitch to bring down.
Love rolling the dice on the second round player. He should have gone 1st round but slipped due to leg concerns. If they hit on this, that probably makes the draft an A. Hell it might be already due to the 2022 haul of picks.
Pretty clear Judge had his fingerprints on this draft strategy
Not sure about Toney's hands but if he has reliable hands I would he shocked if that kid isn't a playmaker. If he can just catch the ball he's going to make a lot of things happen. Great draft IMO when you factor in the players they bring in and the haul of picks for a stacked draft next season.
 

HuskyHawk

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Who said I was referring to mock drafts? These are scouts and front office types being quoted below. As for the price, next year's first is going to be considered cheap if Fields pans out, compared to what other teams paid. Again, the price for the Patriots was not a first since they were only 3 spots back. As for Haskins, we can name a lot of busts from most of the big schools. USC has plenty of busts, Florida, Florida St., Texas, Alabama, every school has had QB busts in the last decade. Last, Brady had a super strong arm--people just neglected to note it because initially he excelled at short passes.

This is the main reason I am dubious about Mac Jones. I just think an NFL QB absolutely needs a decently strong arm to make the throws that force a D to respect you all around the field.


"He's not in that same conversation with the other guys," an AFC scout said in the same article. "He's going to distribute the ball for you. I think he makes (good) decisions. (But) what level of athlete is he? What can he do mobility-wise? I don't think he's got the arm talent that those upper-level guys have. But I think he's probably just as sharp, maybe a little bit more than those guys mentally."

"Where [Jones] comes up short is I don't think the talent level is there, from either an arm-strength standpoint or an athleticism standpoint."

Also:

"[Jones is] a stronger-armed Jake Fromm," said one area scout. "He distributes the ball well to all those great weapons. Jones has some ability. His arm is good enough, a little stronger than Jake's. Mac can anticipate, and sees the field well. I think he could have a career in the NFL similar to Matt Barkley."

Another team source who graded Jones (6-3, 214) down in the fourth round said they felt he was a shorter A.J. McCarron. Similar to McCarron, Jones was surrounded with a phenomenal set of wide receivers, a tough offensive line with future early-round picks, and a dynamic running game. Team sources say Jones did a good job of managing the game and getting the ball to his playmakers.

Jones could end up as a second-day pick who is a solid backup. He may be able to top out as a mid-level starter, like a Kirk Cousins.

Brady never had a super strong arm. Bledsoe had a cannon. Brady actually improved his arm strength once he focused on gaining strength. Brady ran a 5.28 40. Jones a 4.68. Fromm ran 5.01. Jones’ arm strength is comparable to Joe Burrow. He can throw accurately over 50 yards. Not sure what else is needed. Watch the video I posted and you can see he can run, roll out and throw accurately on the move. The pocket passer label is for those who haven’t seen him play.

I’ve seen those anonymous comparisons to guys like Fromm and Breathard. But Jones just had the second best season in college football history for a QB. Like Joe Burrow he was surrounded by talent. So was Fields. So was Lawrence. He had fewer weapons than Tua, and was better than Tua by every measure.

I don’t know who is going to pan out from this draft class. I wouldn’t bet against the guy going to the best team of any of these 5 guys. Fields has mechanical issues he needs to fix. I’m sure he can. Lance was the guy I hoped would fall to New England.
 

the Q

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Brady never had a super strong arm. Bledsoe had a cannon. Brady actually improved his arm strength once he focused on gaining strength. Brady ran a 5.28 40. Jones a 4.68. Fromm ran 5.01. Jones’ arm strength is comparable to Joe Burrow. He can throw accurately over 50 yards. Not sure what else is needed. Watch the video I posted and you can see he can run, roll out and throw accurately on the move. The pocket passer label is for those who haven’t seen him play.

I’ve seen those anonymous comparisons to guys like Fromm and Breathard. But Jones just had the second best season in college football history for a QB. Like Joe Burrow he was surrounded by talent. So was Fields. So was Lawrence. He had fewer weapons than Tua, and was better than Tua by every measure.

I don’t know who is going to pan out from this draft class. I wouldn’t bet against the guy going to the best team of any of these 5 guys. Fields has mechanical issues he needs to fix. I’m sure he can. Lance was the guy I hoped would fall to New England.

by some metrics Jones had the single greatest season in cfb history.

the fact that he’s even in the discussion is enough for me.

I think burrow is a fair enough comp for me.

if Marshall didn’t have pre draft medical issues it would’ve been 3 first round lsu receivers for burrow as well. Both had absolutely loaded supporting casts. Just absurd amounts of talent.
 
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Brady never had a super strong arm. Bledsoe had a cannon. Brady actually improved his arm strength once he focused on gaining strength. Brady ran a 5.28 40. Jones a 4.68. Fromm ran 5.01. Jones’ arm strength is comparable to Joe Burrow. He can throw accurately over 50 yards. Not sure what else is needed. Watch the video I posted and you can see he can run, roll out and throw accurately on the move. The pocket passer label is for those who haven’t seen him play.

I’ve seen those anonymous comparisons to guys like Fromm and Breathard. But Jones just had the second best season in college football history for a QB. Like Joe Burrow he was surrounded by talent. So was Fields. So was Lawrence. He had fewer weapons than Tua, and was better than Tua by every measure.

I don’t know who is going to pan out from this draft class. I wouldn’t bet against the guy going to the best team of any of these 5 guys. Fields has mechanical issues he needs to fix. I’m sure he can. Lance was the guy I hoped would fall to New England.
I just remember watching Brady in a sports science special early on where those ESPN sports science guys said the speed on his ball was greater than all the starters they had in over the years. But the room they test in is probably just looking at outs and shorter 15 yard throws over the middle. Those are lasers from him. Of course we all saw him heave the ball 75+ yards in a Super Bowl too.

A lot of the negative Jones comments came after his Pro Day. Again--I'm no expert, but I'd note the scouts are 50/50 in assessing first round QBs. They get half of them wrong. I'd just prefer the guy with the tools who has been highly rated for awhile, over the Johnny-Come-Lately types, like Trubisky.

Some QBs who had long records and were college QBs multiple years get picked apart before the draft. A few of them drop precipitously like Marino and Aaron Rodgers. I'm just leery of the flavor of the month.
 

HuskyHawk

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I just remember watching Brady in a sports science special early on where those ESPN sports science guys said the speed on his ball was greater than all the starters they had in over the years. But the room they test in is probably just looking at outs and shorter 15 yard throws over the middle. Those are lasers from him. Of course we all saw him heave the ball 75+ yards in a Super Bowl too.

A lot of the negative Jones comments came after his Pro Day. Again--I'm no expert, but I'd note the scouts are 50/50 in assessing first round QBs. They get half of them wrong. I'd just prefer the guy with the tools who has been highly rated for awhile, over the Johnny-Come-Lately types, like Trubisky.

Some QBs who had long records and were college QBs multiple years get picked apart before the draft. A few of them drop precipitously like Marino and Aaron Rodgers. I'm just leery of the flavor of the month.

I'm not sure I get this. The Johnny-Come-Lately of this draft is Trey Lance. he played one season plus one game this year against FCS opponents. He didn't have any FBS offers out of HS except on defense. Wilson started for three years but was not on anybody's radar as a high draft pick before the season.

Fields threw 39 passes as Fromm's backup at UGA. He started 22 games at OSU.
Jones split time with Tua for several games in 2019, before Tua went out with his injury. He was 17-1 as a starter, so played almost as much as Fields has. Mac Jones - Football - University of Alabama Athletics (rolltide.com)

The guy who really screwed up and cost himself money by opting out is Jamie Newman. He had a chance at UGA to show he was everything Lance and Fields are. Has all the tools, played on a bad team in a bad offense at WF. Amazes me he went undrafted. Eagles signed him.
 
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I'm not sure I get this. The Johnny-Come-Lately of this draft is Trey Lance. he played one season plus one game this year against FCS opponents. He didn't have any FBS offers out of HS except on defense. Wilson started for three years but was not on anybody's radar as a high draft pick before the season.

Fields threw 39 passes as Fromm's backup at UGA. He started 22 games at OSU.
Jones split time with Tua for several games in 2019, before Tua went out with his injury. He was 17-1 as a starter, so played almost as much as Fields has. Mac Jones - Football - University of Alabama Athletics (rolltide.com)

The guy who really screwed up and cost himself money by opting out is Jamie Newman. He had a chance at UGA to show he was everything Lance and Fields are. Has all the tools, played on a bad team in a bad offense at WF. Amazes me he went undrafted. Eagles signed him.
I actually wanted the Patriots to draft Newman. He has all the tools. He will need a very very long development though.

I agree about Lance as a late riser, but I put Mac Jones up there because no one thought of him as a 1st rounder at the turn of the year.

His Senior Bowl performance seemed to change a lot of minds. Before that, scouts were comparing him to Jake Fromme.

I just think Lawrence and Fields spent an eternity getting picked apart for all sorts of reasons. I read a lot of criticism of Lawrence as well in the last couple of months. And while I respect those who know more about football than I do, I can't understand those who criticize Fields' mechanics. They say he's a long strider and has a slow delivery. I see the exact opposite from him. In fact, I see him using too much arm from a very small base, doesn't use his legs enough. And besides, the Patriots have drafted a bunch of guys over the years who have incredibly long deliveries, like Rick Mallett, Jacoby Brisset, O'Connell. So it's weird to me when people say Fields wouldn't fit because of a long delivery (which I don't even see). I think Fields has mechanical issues but it's not that he has a long delivery and is a long strider. I see an accurate guy who doesn't set himself in the use of his legs properly.
 

the Q

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I'm not sure I get this. The Johnny-Come-Lately of this draft is Trey Lance. he played one season plus one game this year against FCS opponents. He didn't have any FBS offers out of HS except on defense. Wilson started for three years but was not on anybody's radar as a high draft pick before the season.

Fields threw 39 passes as Fromm's backup at UGA. He started 22 games at OSU.
Jones split time with Tua for several games in 2019, before Tua went out with his injury. He was 17-1 as a starter, so played almost as much as Fields has. Mac Jones - Football - University of Alabama Athletics (rolltide.com)

The guy who really screwed up and cost himself money by opting out is Jamie Newman. He had a chance at UGA to show he was everything Lance and Fields are. Has all the tools, played on a bad team in a bad offense at WF. Amazes me he went undrafted. Eagles signed him.

I can’t blame anyone who opted out this year. At all.

it does really suck for him though. Although playing in an offense already built around a guy like hurts should make it easier for him to adjust. Iirc wake’s offense was heavy rpo as well.
 

the Q

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I actually wanted the Patriots to draft Newman. He has all the tools. He will need a very very long development though.

I agree about Lance as a late riser, but I put Mac Jones up there because no one thought of him as a 1st rounder at the turn of the year.

His Senior Bowl performance seemed to change a lot of minds. Before that, scouts were comparing him to Jake Fromme.

I just think Lawrence and Fields spent an eternity getting picked apart for all sorts of reasons. I read a lot of criticism of Lawrence as well in the last couple of months. And while I respect those who know more about football than I do, I can't understand those who criticize Fields' mechanics. They say he's a long strider and has a slow delivery. I see the exact opposite from him. In fact, I see him using too much arm from a very small base, doesn't use his legs enough. And besides, the Patriots have drafted a bunch of guys over the years who have incredibly long deliveries, like Rick Mallett, Jacoby Brisset, O'Connell. So it's weird to me when people say Fields wouldn't fit because of a long delivery (which I don't even see). I think Fields has mechanical issues but it's not that he has a long delivery and is a long strider. I see an accurate guy who doesn't set himself in the use of his legs properly.

the long delivery certainly matters though. Even a guy like leftwich who was a great mind, that slow delivery really held him back.
 
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the long delivery certainly matters though. Even a guy like leftwich who was a great mind, that slow delivery really held him back.
Without a doubt, I just don't see such a thing in Fields.
 
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People think the NFL is only Brady career years old and forget a time when the Patriots were basement dwellers.
Nah. I feel a "I've liked the Pats since Steve Grogan was their QB!!!!" type validation he's a "real fan".
 

nomar

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BIG BLUE WRECKING CREW

Like every other Giants fan, I've been a critic of Gettelman, but man, I love what he did. Gotta think Judge had a major role. Wouldn't have happened had one of the Bama guys been there, but who cares -- the ball was over the plate and for once he swung. And then did it again!

Next year's draft is gonna be deep!
 

nomar

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LOL I feel bad y’all are Jets and Giants fans. Must be rough.

Wut

 

HuskyHawk

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Two over the Pats as well. What a bad take. Now the Jets...the Jets have been mostly terrible for a long time. Unfortunately, I thought they also had a damned good draft. Neither NJ team made its usual mistakes.
 
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Two over the Pats as well. What a bad take. Now the Jets...the Jets have been mostly terrible for a long time. Unfortunately, I thought they also had a damned good draft. Neither NJ team made its usual mistakes.
I've been a Jets fan my whole life. On one hand, it's hard to get excited about the change in GM, Coach, Off Coordinator, QB.....wait 3-4 years and lather, rinse, repeat. On the other hand, when you are going through that process, it feels good to have done things well in the eyes of non-Jets fans. Most of the "chatter" is they did a nice job upgrading where they needed to and put playmakers in with Wilson for the next 3 years. Snap the ball and let's see if it's different this time.
 

HuskyHawk

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I've been a Jets fan my whole life. On one hand, it's hard to get excited about the change in GM, Coach, Off Coordinator, QB.....wait 3-4 years and lather, rinse, repeat. On the other hand, when you are going through that process, it feels good to have done things well in the eyes of non-Jets fans. Most of the "chatter" is they did a nice job upgrading where they needed to and put playmakers in with Wilson for the next 3 years. Snap the ball and let's see if it's different this time.

My outside observation is that they suffer a bit, seeking glamour. They exist in the shadow of the more successful Giants (and Patriots to some extent) and don't even have their own stadium. Their glory days involved "Broadway Joe" and more recently some decent years with O'Brien and even Sanchez at QB. I get the sense that they like to make a splash (as the Red Sox and Yankees long did). This is an example. Jets sign Le’Veon Bell: When, where, how to buy his new jersey - nj.com Bad decision.

I think Corey Davis was a solid signing. Then they added a WR I thought was top 4 in Eljah Moore. Carter was a smart RB pick, he's dangerous with the ball.

Don't expect to be very good next year. The defense still needs an overhaul. But the offensive pieces are there.
 
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My outside observation is that they suffer a bit, seeking glamour. They exist in the shadow of the more successful Giants (and Patriots to some extent) and don't even have their own stadium. Their glory days involved "Broadway Joe" and more recently some decent years with O'Brien and even Sanchez at QB. I get the sense that they like to make a splash (as the Red Sox and Yankees long did). This is an example. Jets sign Le’Veon Bell: When, where, how to buy his new jersey - nj.com Bad decision.

I think Corey Davis was a solid signing. Then they added a WR I thought was top 4 in Eljah Moore. Carter was a smart RB pick, he's dangerous with the ball.

Don't expect to be very good next year. The defense still needs an overhaul. But the offensive pieces are there.

I don't think Jets fans feel they're in the shadow of the Giants. At least I never have and I have never felt any indication from my personal fan circle. Different division, no real rivalry games or history between the two teams. I never rooted against them in the postseason either.

And, as far as sharing a stadium? I have never had an issue with that either. They do a nice job with signage and feel where it looks like a home game for both teams. And any real "homefield advantage" comes with winning more than losing.

And no need for concern.....I don't expect them to ever be very good, bud.
 

the Q

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I've been a Jets fan my whole life. On one hand, it's hard to get excited about the change in GM, Coach, Off Coordinator, QB.....wait 3-4 years and lather, rinse, repeat. On the other hand, when you are going through that process, it feels good to have done things well in the eyes of non-Jets fans. Most of the "chatter" is they did a nice job upgrading where they needed to and put playmakers in with Wilson for the next 3 years. Snap the ball and let's see if it's different this time.

My outside observation is that they suffer a bit, seeking glamour. They exist in the shadow of the more successful Giants (and Patriots to some extent) and don't even have their own stadium. Their glory days involved "Broadway Joe" and more recently some decent years with O'Brien and even Sanchez at QB. I get the sense that they like to make a splash (as the Red Sox and Yankees long did). This is an example. Jets sign Le’Veon Bell: When, where, how to buy his new jersey - nj.com Bad decision.

I think Corey Davis was a solid signing. Then they added a WR I thought was top 4 in Eljah Moore. Carter was a smart RB pick, he's dangerous with the ball.

Don't expect to be very good next year. The defense still needs an overhaul. But the offensive pieces are there.

Jets did fine. I didnt love the trade up when darrisow fell the them anyway.

But yeah they had a good offseason.

Davis and moore are great gets.

And losing because the defense sucks is fine if wilson is proving he is the guy. Next year the defensive talent should be better anyway.
 

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