ND Update

[businesslawyer]

The B-12 isn't a home for the Notre Dame "other" sports. That is one problem with the scenario people lay out. There are a couple of significant holes. ND has a natioanlly ranked soccer team. The B-12 doesn't offer soccer. Natioanlly ranked lacrosse team. B-12, nope. Several other sports where ND excels are sponsored by the B-12 but at very modest levels. Both th eBig East and the ACC sponsor programs which are better suited to the Irish than the B-12. And while many schools wouldn't care that much, Notre Dame actually does care about having good homes for its other programs. Would it be a deal breaker? Probably not. But a consideration? Absolutley.

While we're at it, can somebody explain the love affair with Syracuse basketball? I keep reading how that is going to be the great addition to the ACC. But then I look at Syracuse's actual performance and I have to say huh? Compared with UCONN, Duke, UNC Syracuse is much more a second tier program. They won a national championship in 2003 but haven't been past the Sweet 16 since. Before that they hadn't been to an Elite 8 since 1996. So it isn't like they are a perrenial national championship contender. In fact, there 3 Final Four appearances were all more or less as dark horses. Indeed, without that great run in 2003 with a rented player, the Orange have been mostly Pittian (eg one who gags in the NCAA Tournement as the Pitt Panters regularly do) in the NCAA Tourney, regualrly losing to lower seeds. They have been a great rival for UCONN, but as far as post season performances, it isn't even close. Over the past 20 years this is what you see:

NCAA invites: S-16 C-16
National Champs S-1 C-3
Final Fours S-2 C-4
Other Elite 8 S-0 C-5
Other S-16 S-6 C-9

But saying Syracuse is an inferior program to Duke, UNC and UConn is, quite frankly, relatively useless, as everyone is basically an inferior program to those three.

Syracuse has a strong following in the major east coast markets, can draw over 30k to an important home game, has won a national championship relatively recently and is a consistent Top 20 team. The fact that they are not UConn, Duke or UNC doesn't stop them from being a very valuable basketball property.

 

[noeynox]

The B-12 isn't a home for the Notre Dame "other" sports. That is one problem with the scenario people lay out. There are a couple of significant holes. ND has a natioanlly ranked soccer team. The B-12 doesn't offer soccer. Natioanlly ranked lacrosse team. B-12, nope. Several other sports where ND excels are sponsored by the B-12 but at very modest levels. Both th eBig East and the ACC sponsor programs which are better suited to the Irish than the B-12. And while many schools wouldn't care that much, Notre Dame actually does care about having good homes for its other programs. Would it be a deal breaker? Probably not. But a consideration? Absolutley.

While we're at it, can somebody explain the love affair with Syracuse basketball? I keep reading how that is going to be the great addition to the ACC. But then I look at Syracuse's actual performance and I have to say huh? Compared with UCONN, Duke, UNC Syracuse is much more a second tier program. They won a national championship in 2003 but haven't been past the Sweet 16 since. Before that they hadn't been to an Elite 8 since 1996. So it isn't like they are a perrenial national championship contender. In fact, there 3 Final Four appearances were all more or less as dark horses. Indeed, without that great run in 2003 with a rented player, the Orange have been mostly Pittian (eg one who gags in the NCAA Tournement as the Pitt Panters regularly do) in the NCAA Tourney, regualrly losing to lower seeds. They have been a great rival for UCONN, but as far as post season performances, it isn't even close. Over the past 20 years this is what you see:

NCAA invites: S-16 C-16
National Champs S-1 C-3
Final Fours S-2 C-4
Other Elite 8 S-0 C-5
Other S-16 S-6 C-9

Here is what I don't get, how much money do you estimate ND's other sports bring to a conference? If they go to the ACC as #15 without FB, wouldn't their other sports have to bring about 16 million, to provide each school with an additional 1 million each? If ND could earn that much with their other sports, of which hoops is the biggest TV draw other than FB, wouldn't it behoove them to keep their other sports independent and pocket all that extra cash that a network/NBC is ready to throw at them? If you cut the number in half and say that each ACC school would get an additional 5ook, is that worth it to the ACC, cause again I would think ND would be better off keeping the 8 million to themselves. I doubt ND's other sports would even bring a conference that much since depending on what you believe, ND is getting 10-12 million a year from NBC for football.

As for Cuse hoops, people tune in regardless. If you are going to knock Cuse hoops, what do you think of ND hoops? They joined the Big East because 16-12, as an independent wasn't getting them in the NCAA tourney.

 

[SubbaBub]

Nothing in this post makes an iota of sense to me.

I will use smaller words. The catholics are not big time enough for the irish. They are looking for a better deal. B12 as a BB only is last resort if ACC won't go for BB only deal.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

 

[Duvall]

2. They have no interest in going to the Big XII. They have interest in going to the ACC or Big Ten. The Big Ten will never take them without football. The ACC will, and Swofford already wants to, but needs "cover" to get this through his membership.

What are you basing this on?

 

[businesslawyer]

What are you basing this on?

Those are my assumptions based on weight I give to various statements being made, and articles written, based on how much sense they make. I do not pretend to have any inside information, but that is how I am reading the tea leaves.

 

[jostar1]

According to this story by Pete Thamel from a couple of weeks ago, the Big12 was amemable to a partial deal, but the ACC would be Notre Dame’s preference:

The best possibility for Notre Dame is finding a partial landing spot in the A.C.C. That could mean Notre Dame’s basketball and non-revenue sports teams would become full-fledged A.C.C. members. In football, Notre Dame could set up a scheduling agreement with the A.C.C. in which it would play a certain number of the conference teams each season yet keep its football independence. Television executives believe that each Notre Dame game could be worth about $3 million for the league.
If Notre Dame did this, UConn, not Rutgers, would round out the A.C.C. as the 16th member.
It is likely the Irish would enter a creative scheduling agreement before entering a conference as a full member. (The Big 12 has also been amenable to such a deal, but the A.C.C. would probably be Notre Dame’s preference.)

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/07/s...ristian-putting-football-future-in-doubt.html

 

[intlzncster]

Nothing to this poster, but people here seem to mean "doesn't need them" is the same is "can't make more money with them." The ACC doesn't need Notre Dame for hoops, any more than the Big EAst did. But the Big East had them because they determined there was more money to be made with them than without them. And, despite the concensus here, I still believe the Big XII and ACC will reach the same conclusions.

I'm ambivalent to the argument at hand, but tangentially, if the ACC would reach the above conclusion, why not consider UConn for full membership? Certainly, UConn's basketball, baseball, etc programs are more valuable than ND's, and as such, would likely generate more money. While I'm unsure about markets, as I don't have a good gauge of ND's non football draws in different areas of the country (ie NYC), I'd think UConn matches up or surpasses ND in many sports.

Most people realize that the ACC will not be able to find a strong football school that would also meet their overall criteria as an institution, despite FSU's, Clemson's et al protestations otherwise. It seems UConn would be a better candidate, even taking into account the implications of full membership. I guess the pertinent factor is that ND's potential inclusion is forced by the immediacy of the B12 snapping up ND.

 

[arnie3]

I guess this is as good as any other theory. I don't believe that the Big 12 is in the mix, but the "fact" that this theory is being promoted could force the ACC's hand to back off the football issue. Though, if you step back a second and look at this, none of it makes much sense in the long run- that tightly knit ball of string is starting to unravel.
I keep looking around for chicken little.

 

[noeynox]

I guess this is as good as any other theory. I don't believe that the Big 12 is in the mix, but the "fact" that this theory is being promoted could force the ACC's hand to back off the football issue. Though, if you step back a second and look at this, none of it makes much sense in the long run- that tightly knit ball of string is starting to unravel.
I keep looking around for chicken little.

So us, as message board posters can figure out that the Big 12, is not REALLY a viable alternative for ND, but Swofford and the ACC presidents are going to fall for this "fake", by ND?

Anyone else think This doesn't make any gosh darn sense? I know were all hoping UConn gets in as # 16, but I actually believe the ACC means it when they say they're an all in, equal revenue conference. That really is the only way to keep MOST members happy.

 

[Vuce]

And since we are talking a bit about non revenue sports that "match" the ACC has 4 or 5 top 25 field hockey programs. Uconn just won the Big East championship this weekend over Syracuse. That would fit in nicely with the ACC too - the league would have 7 of the top 25 teams. Again, not a huge deal but throwing it in the mix.

 

[uc1974]

I would be shocked if the ACC takes ND without football as it has been an equal revenue conference since its founding in 1953. This enables schools like Duke and Wake Forest not to have to rely on football for $$ and to maintain high academic standards for FB players. It actually keeps Duke FB poor and really doesn't help Wake on the field either, although Wake is able to be decent some years. That being said, I continue to be surprised with developments. BL may be correct about ND but taking them as a football partial goes contrary to 58 years of practice. Certainly ND's academics and other athletic programs are a plus and Swofford, a decent QB in his day, is full of surprises.

 

[jostar1]

And since we are talking a bit about non revenue sports that "match" the ACC has 4 or 5 top 25 field hockey programs. Uconn just won the Big East championship this weekend over Syracuse. That would fit in nicely with the ACC too - the league would have 7 of the top 25 teams. Again, not a huge deal but throwing it in the mix.

Also throw into the mix regarding adding Notre Dame and
UConn:

• In his first year as Commissioner, Swofford placed an added emphasis on the development of women’s basketball in the ACC with the hiring of an Associate Commissioner for Women’s Basketball to oversee all aspects of the sport on both a conference and national level.

In addition, the league was represented by three of its women’s basketball programs in the 2006 NCAA Women’s Basketball Final Four. In that same year, it was an all-ACC final as the conference claimed its second NCAA Women’s Basketball National title.

http://www.theacc.com/this-is/commissioner.html

 

[Hoophound]

I wonder if the ACC will go along if they can get an agreement in place with ND that states that IF they join a conference for football, it will be the ACC. If they will do that, I would sign off if I'm the ACC. You basically take ND off the open market and let time and economics work on the problem. Until then, you play with 15 all sports members (UConn or Rutgers).

 

[noeynox]

I wonder if the ACC will go along if they can get an agreement in place with ND that states that IF they join a conference for football, it will be the ACC. If they will do that, I would sign off if I'm the ACC. You basically take ND off the open market and let time and economics work on the problem. Until then, you play with 15 all sports members (UConn or Rutgers).

If you add that clause, and you provide a home for their other sports you have basically made it so that they don't ever have to join a conference.

 

[gars44]

Also throw into the mix regarding adding Notre Dame and
UConn:

• In his first year as Commissioner, Swofford placed an added emphasis on the development of women’s basketball in the ACC with the hiring of an Associate Commissioner for Women’s Basketball to oversee all aspects of the sport on both a conference and national level.

In addition, the league was represented by three of its women’s basketball programs in the 2006 NCAA Women’s Basketball Final Four. In that same year, it was an all-ACC final as the conference claimed its second NCAA Women’s Basketball National title.

http://www.theacc.com/this-is/commissioner.html

I don't think Swofford's the one opposed to uconn, btw.

 

[Hoophound]

If you add that clause, and you provide a home for their other sports you have basically made it so that they don't ever have to join a conference.

I was thinking that too, but i'm not sure it would work that way. Either way, ND has to make more money by staying independent. If the money isn't there, they will need a conference. I don't know that it really helps ND too much other than to give their other teams a better conference situation. You may be totally right, but how would this set up effect football money and in turn ensure ND's independence?

 

[06029]

The value ND brought to the BE can not be replicated in any other conference. ND allowed the BE FB teams to have access to bowl games that would not take them without the ND option. No other league has that issue. I can not imagine any of the other leagies giving ND special bowl rules. Does ND bring enough to the table in BB to make a big enough revenue enhancement to have them be a partial member? I do not think so.

Bowl game affiliation has to be one of ND's concerns going forward if they feel that the BE will lose some of the better affiliations based onWVU, Ville, RU or Uconn leaving.That might force their hand as much as anything.

 

[gars44]

I was thinking that too, but i'm not sure it would work that way. Either way, ND has to make more money by staying independent. If the money isn't there, they will need a conference. I don't know that it really helps ND too much other than to give their other teams a better conference situation. You may be totally right, but how would this set up effect football money and in turn ensure ND's independence?

I don't think ND is concerned about money. They have plenty of that. It's really all about maintaining football. But they also have to have some place to play other sports. Some place. Blow up the big east, and ND has a big problem. They can maintain football, but they have to find some place for the others. The Big 12 is probably not that place. The ACC would be great, but it won't cave on this. So, this is a problem.

 

[The Funster]

ND to the Big 12 is not a fit, as another poster pointed out. ND may be trying manipulate the ACC into taking them for non FB sports because, as the same poster pointed out, the ACC is strong in those sports. I don't see the financial benefit to taking ND partially as the BE did. The only possible benefit to doing so would be to keep a seat warm for ND when it does decide to join a conference.

 

[bristol rises]

I'm not positive, but I believe ND football contract expires in 2015. Following the Comcast acquisition of NBC, there were some key management departures at NBC Sports. Notably, Dick Ebersol and his key lieutenant (whose name mistakes me right now). Ebersol was always an instrumental part in the ND/NBC partnership and played a fundamental role in bringing the Irish to NBC in first place. I'm also certain that Ebersol sent all of his children to ND.

Could the fact that both of these key ND supporters are no longer in positions of influence at Comcast/NBC play a part? And is it possible that by forcing these two guys out, Comcast has already sent a subtle message to South Bend of its intentions on renewing the ND football contract?

 

[freescooter]

The value ND brought to the BE can not be replicated in any other conference. ND allowed the BE FB teams to have access to bowl games that would not take them without the ND option. No other league has that issue. I can not imagine any of the other leagies giving ND special bowl rules. Does ND bring enough to the table in BB to make a big enough revenue enhancement to have them be a partial member? I do not think so.

Bowl game affiliation has to be one of ND's concerns going forward if they feel that the BE will lose some of the better affiliations based onWVU, Ville, RU or Uconn leaving.That might force their hand as much as anything.

I think that makes some good points. ND did help the Big East get access a while ago, though I'm not sure that was the case in the last round of bowl deals. And I also think that the basketball schools looked at Notre Dame as "insurance" in the event of a split. While not on the level of a UCONN or Louisville, ND gave the basketball schools another name brand after Georgetown and to a far lesser degree Villanova. In a big way, too, Notre Dame's participation in the Big East is a result of history. I seriously doubt if the Irish approached the Big East for a similar arrangement today that it would fly. At the time, the Big East was a new football conference, and the basketball league was not as highly regarded as it had been a decade earlier. After regularly placing teams in the Final Four during the 1980s, (82, 84, 3 of the 4 in 1985,2 in 87, 89) the Big East hadn't had a Final Four team since Seton Hall in 1989, and there was a perception that it was no longer at the same level. In that environment, adding Notre Dame made some sense. I have also heard that there was a hope or at least a thought that the Irish would consider joining the league for football at some unidentified future point. And given the makeup of the original Big East football league, while I doubt ND had any intent of joining, it wouldn't be as much of a stretch to think it possible since they had recently completed a long term series with Miami, for which there was some clamor to continue, had historical and ongoing ties to Pitt, and were developing somewhat more recent ties with Boston College. It also included a Syracuse team that, while it dind't have ties with Notre Dame, was a pretty regular top 15 program from the late 80s thorugh the mid-1990s.

 

[Heston]

Nothing to this poster, but people here seem to mean "doesn't need them" is the same is "can't make more money with them." The ACC doesn't need Notre Dame for hoops, any more than the Big EAst did. But the Big East had them because they determined there was more money to be made with them than without them. And, despite the concensus here, I still believe the Big XII and ACC will reach the same conclusions.

ACC will not offer partial membership to ND (maybe maybe if it is temporary and a contractual committed path for ND to commit as full member within a few years). Swofford is not bluffing. He knows even if he wants to the votes will not be there for it. Duke, UNC, Miami, BC, FSU, etc are not going to let ND in as partial. They don't need ND (sure would like them). If you think money is the motivator, follow the money.

TV money? The per team TV deal for ACC is bigger than NDs NBC deal and will be even bigger after they renegotiate. ND adds no incremental value in basketball. None. Unless they join in football, big deal. The ACC is spitting up far more money than Big East. And with new TV deal it will be even more.

The Big East supposedly needed ND for bowl deals (and probably did), the ACC does not.

Scheduling money? The Big East got money for playing ND in football at ND, the ACC is going to play them anyway (and have games scheduled with them for years to come, see not only Syracuse and Pitt, but BC, WF, Miami, etc.).

 

[ctchamps]

The B12 is almost as unstable a conference as the BE. I can only see desperate universities with the perception they have nothing to lose wanting to go to the B12, and Notre Dame is not one of those schools.

A lot of these leaks and articles are seemed to be sourced from the B12. It is an unstable conference doing everything it can to prevent implosion including the delay of anything getting established in the BE.

 

[Heston]

The B12 is almost as unstable a conference as the BE. I can only see desperate universities with the perception they have nothing to lose wanting to go to the B12, and Notre Dame is not one of those schools.

A lot of these leaks and articles are seemed to be sourced from the B12. It is an unstable conference doing everything it can to prevent implosion including the delay of anything getting established in the BE.

The Big 12 is several notches above the Big East, hence why any Big East team offered by them is going to take the offer. The Big 12 is not concerned about the Big East in the least. While they are far from being the ACC, Big Ten, Pac-12, or SEC in terms of stability, as long as Texas and OU are in, the Big 12 is going to be around. If Texas and OU bail, it is over. The Big East has no Texas or OU or anything close.

They don't have to do worry about an implosion. Only the Big East does.

 

[freescooter]

Isn't that the whole point though, Heston, the B-12 is in danger of implosion if Texas and Oklahoma decide to take their wares elsewhere, or even if Texas decides it can make more upping the ante again with Bevo. So depending on how that plays out, Texas is playing nice right now, but in a couple of years who knows. And then where are you? If you are West Virginia or Louisville, my guess is that you can afford to play this pretty freely. Because much like the Big East, there aren't lots of good options out there for the B-12 either. So it isn't like you need to decide immediately. those guys can see which way the wind is blowing before committing because if things do in fact go to 16 team leagues, they will likely be just as attractive to the B-12 in 2 or 5 years to get that league from 10 to 16, while if they go now they could just as likely be left hanging with no good home (unless you think a league with Baylor as the flagship is a good home) in 5 years. The risks are that the Big East collapses in which case you likely still have a B-12 landing spot, and the Big East succeeds somehow in which case, in all liklihood the B-12 is left struggling.