NCAA: It's not our job to ensure educational quality | The Boneyard

NCAA: It's not our job to ensure educational quality

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Aug 28, 2011
Messages
3,060
Reaction Score
8,705
Anyway, the punishment should come from whatever academic body provides accreditation to UNC. They should be at least put on academic probation for 3 years, IMHO.
 
Joined
Dec 23, 2011
Messages
1,836
Reaction Score
3,793
The example is nonsensical admittedly, but if Stanford wanted to win some NCAA championships.... say, in football and basketball.... everyone wants to go to Stanford..... so go get the best players..... prop them up by doing the academics for them..... or helping them greatly to keep them eligible..... and then win championships..... with no penalties from the NCAA..... coz its not their job to ensure educational quality...... but they should tag UConn for academic scores.... tis OK we won without any help the next year
 

CocoHusky

1,000,001 BY points
Joined
Jan 24, 2015
Messages
17,205
Reaction Score
73,877
Anyway, the punishment should come from whatever academic body provides accreditation to UNC. They should be at least put on academic probation for 3 years, IMHO.
IMO the punishment should be from both the accreditation agencies and the NCAA. UNC committed academic fraud specifically to make athletes that would not have been otherwise able to participate eligible to participate. UNC gained a competitive advantage and even won championships doing this. Competitive advantage is definitely in the charter of the NCAA.
 

ctchamps

We are UConn!! 6 >>>1!
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
17,446
Reaction Score
44,213
IMO the punishment should be from both the accreditation agencies and the NCAA. UNC committed academic fraud specifically to make athletes that would not have been otherwise able to participate eligible to participate. UNC gained a competitive advantage and even won championships doing this. Competitive advantage is definitely in the charter of the NCAA.
If you think this is isolated to UNC and Syracuse I have a pet rock to sell you. This is the fiasco regarding the APR. Without examining what student athletes are doing at their respective universities, the system has been, and will always be, open to fraud. Most likely the institutions that have had problems in the past with APR issues were institutions least likely to have gamed the system.
 

Husky25

Dink & Dunk beat the Greatest Show on Turf.
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
Messages
18,703
Reaction Score
19,793
Is the NCAA a defendant in the UNC lawsuit? If so, I see the same outcome before a judge that they got in the O'Bannon case. They will lose.

I love the comparison between the NCAA and a state Bar Association or medical review board. That is true, but then again, those are actually credible authoritative bodies. If a doctor or lawyer acts inappropriately, they sanction the practitioner without prejudice. They don't play favorites.

It is also true the NCAA should be accountable in running a school's chemistry department. That is the School's responsibility. The NCAA, however, IS responsible to ensure oversight on the part of its members. Otherwise, academic eligibility, APR, and graduation rates mean nothing.

Mark Emmert needs to resign. He is an F5 tornado that has hit UConn, LSU, U-Dub, and now the entire NCAA.
 

RockyMTblue2

Don't Look Up!
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
22,525
Reaction Score
99,903
One has to wonder, then, just whatthehell IS their job?

I believe you will find the definitive answer above delivered by a sharp eyed eagle. :rolleyes:
 
Joined
Jan 13, 2014
Messages
9,873
Reaction Score
29,415
Anyway, the punishment should come from whatever academic body provides accreditation to UNC. They should be at least put on academic probation for 3 years, IMHO.
The UNC academic fraud was purely driven by athletic eligibility, and pretty much 100% administered by the athletic department, with cooperation from "athletics-friendly" professors and advisors. For the most part the advisors, tutors, etc, who 'technically' resided in academic departments, existed solely for the athletic department, were housed in athletic department facilities, and took direction from athletic department authorities. UNC's main line of defense is that this is an academics issue, not an athletics issue. IMO it's an athletics issue, with cooperation from the the academic departments and higher-ups of a university with clearly misplaced priorities

That said, similar situations probably exist in 100 other schools, which I think is the can of worms the NCAA is so afraid of.
 

Fairfield_1st

Sitting on this Barstool talking like a damn fool
Joined
Nov 16, 2012
Messages
2,686
Reaction Score
8,556
In this lawsuit against UNC by former student athletes, I agree with the NCAA. I don't feel they should be sued for UNC's sham classes. Only UNC is at fault there. Now when it comes down to penalizing UNC for 100 years of sham classes, the NCAA most certainly should be involved and needs to levy some heavy punishment. I just feel we're talking about 2 different issues.
 

CocoHusky

1,000,001 BY points
Joined
Jan 24, 2015
Messages
17,205
Reaction Score
73,877
If you think this is isolated to UNC and Syracuse I have a pet rock to sell you.
Not sure how you implied this from my post. The duration-decades + documentation-inside whistle blower(s) + scope-MCBB, MCBB, Football makes UNC unique in my opinion. Routinely athletes are encouraged to take less demanding majors the implication being you have more time to devote to your sports. This is not fraud or even close to it in my opinion. What I have read and what has been documented at UNC is far different. Student not showing up for an assigned class ever, Faculty changing grades to make players eligible, acceptance into graduate programs to maintain eligibility. Very sordid stuff- Academic Fraud might be too nice a term.
 
Joined
Jun 10, 2012
Messages
31,615
Reaction Score
3,962
It's an old saw, we are for it, but intend no action to secure it...nonchalance defined..
 

UcMiami

How it is
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
14,197
Reaction Score
47,326
A few have stated it and I agree -
1. The academic integrity of a university is not in the NCAAs purview - their are 'accrediting agencies' that deal with this (again mostly on a self reporting basis like the NCAA academic progress requirements.) The NCAA does not have the capacity nor the expertise to review course loads and academic rigor at it member schools and heaven help us if they ever tried!!!

2. The NCAA does set academic standards for those students on athletic scholarships based on the explicit understanding that scholarship athletes will be held to the same academic standards as all other students enrolled at member universities and not given special treatment except in the providing of additional tutorial support, and as necessary special arrangements for tests/exams/attendance when team travel interfere with standard schedules. In this regard they depend on the integrity of member schools to police and report accurately that academic information.

3. We all suspect that some athletes at some schools are more leniently treated by individual professors than the general student population, and that there are probably specific professors and courses and courses of study that exist that are considered less rigorous and more athlete friendly than others. There are probably other classes of students and individual students that have an easier time skating through selected courses than others as well, but athletes probably are the most clearly defined.

4. What UNC and their athletic department and their athletic support staff and at least one academic department did over 15 years stands on its own as the most egregious fraud to come to light with regard to NCAA standards of athletic academic progress/eligibility to compete. Has something similar happened elsewhere undetected or is it currently happening elsewhere is not the issue here. 'Everyone else was doing it' is not a valid excuse for any fraudulent behavior. Try using that excuse the next time you get stopped for exceeding the speed limit and see what the policeman/judge say!

Interestingly, in regard to being sued by student athletes who were not educated by UNC, I would suspect the NCAA attorneys would advice the clearest way to distance the NCAA from UNC and provide their best defense would be to come down extremely hard on UNC with sanctions for the fraud they perpetrated on the NCAA by reporting false academic results on student athletes. In effect 'we too were lied to and defrauded, and when it came to light we took bold action to deter similar fraud from ever being committed again by our member institutions.'
Will they do so ... I am not holding my breath!
 

SubbaBub

Your stupidity is ruining my country.
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
32,271
Reaction Score
25,353
UcMiami said:
A few have stated it and I agree -
1. The academic integrity of a university is not in the NCAAs purview - their are 'accrediting agencies' that deal with this (again mostly on a self reporting basis like the NCAA academic progress requirements.) The NCAA does not have the capacity nor the expertise to review course loads and academic rigor at it member schools and heaven help us if they ever tried!!!

2. The NCAA does set academic standards for those students on athletic scholarships based on the explicit understanding that scholarship athletes will be held to the same academic standards as all other students enrolled at member universities and not given special treatment except in the providing of additional tutorial support, and as necessary special arrangements for tests/exams/attendance when team travel interfere with standard schedules. In this regard they depend on the integrity of member schools to police and report accurately that academic information.

3. We all suspect that some athletes at some schools are more leniently treated by individual professors than the general student population, and that there are probably specific professors and courses and courses of study that exist that are considered less rigorous and more athlete friendly than others. There are probably other classes of students and individual students that have an easier time skating through selected courses than others as well, but athletes probably are the most clearly defined.

4. What UNC and their athletic department and their athletic support staff and at least one academic department did over 15 years stands on its own as the most egregious fraud to come to light with regard to NCAA standards of athletic academic progress/eligibility to compete. Has something similar happened elsewhere undetected or is it currently happening elsewhere is not the issue here. 'Everyone else was doing it' is not a valid excuse for any fraudulent behavior. Try using that excuse the next time you get stopped for exceeding the speed limit and see what the policeman/judge say!

Interestingly, in regard to being sued by student athletes who were not educated by UNC, I would suspect the NCAA attorneys would advice the clearest way to distance the NCAA from UNC and provide their best defense would be to come down extremely hard on UNC with sanctions for the fraud they perpetrated on the NCAA by reporting false academic results on student athletes. In effect 'we too were lied to and defrauded, and when it came to light we took bold action to deter similar fraud from ever being committed again by our member institutions.'
Will they do so ... I am not holding my breath!

Bull cookies.

1. The NCAA is founded on the basis that the athletes are legitimate students in good standing. Academic fraud of any kind subverts that and renders any participating player ineligible.

2. A minimum GPA is required for eligibility. See #1.

3. Majoring in Theoretical Physics is not a requirement for athletes. They are requires to be enrolled in legitimate courses of study open to all students. See #1.

4. Darn tootin'. If a former student was coerced into an academic path that does not support the degree he received, that is between the student, the school, and the court system. If it reveals academic fraud, see #1.
 

UcMiami

How it is
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
14,197
Reaction Score
47,326
Subbabub - Determining academic rigor of member schools just isn't part of the NCAA purview.

That is different from determining if athletes are academically eligible and if they have received improper academic benefits or considerations. We are not in disagreement. Once fraud is determined that corresponds to athletic eligibility then definitely it falls under the NCAA purview - but a lawsuit by student athletes that accuses the NCAA of being responsible for the academic rigor/fraud of the school they attended does not strike me as likely to succeed, because the NCAA isn't responsible for that fraud. Once it is detected, they are responsible for punishing the school for the fraud they perpetrated on the NCAA by falsifying athletic eligibility.
 

Husky25

Dink & Dunk beat the Greatest Show on Turf.
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
Messages
18,703
Reaction Score
19,793
Subbabub - Determining academic rigor of member schools just isn't part of the NCAA purview.

That is different from determining if athletes are academically eligible and if they have received improper academic benefits or considerations. We are not in disagreement. Once fraud is determined that corresponds to athletic eligibility then definitely it falls under the NCAA purview - but a lawsuit by student athletes that accuses the NCAA of being responsible for the academic rigor/fraud of the school they attended does not strike me as likely to succeed, because the NCAA isn't responsible for that fraud. Once it is detected, they are responsible for punishing the school for the fraud they perpetrated on the NCAA by falsifying athletic eligibility.

The question is: Will they?
 

SubbaBub

Your stupidity is ruining my country.
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
32,271
Reaction Score
25,353
UcMiami said:
Subbabub - Determining academic rigor of member schools just isn't part of the NCAA purview.

That is different from determining if athletes are academically eligible and if they have received improper academic benefits or considerations. We are not in disagreement. Once fraud is determined that corresponds to athletic eligibility then definitely it falls under the NCAA purview - but a lawsuit by student athletes that accuses the NCAA of being responsible for the academic rigor/fraud of the school they attended does not strike me as likely to succeed, because the NCAA isn't responsible for that fraud. Once it is detected, they are responsible for punishing the school for the fraud they perpetrated on the NCAA by falsifying athletic eligibility.

Didn't imply otherwise. If you're a commuter school then that's the standard, if you're an Ivy league school then that's your standard.

In discussion of UNC, they clearly violated the laws and the mission of NCAA athletics. For anyone, especially the NCAA itself, to pass it off as not an NCAA issue is transparently wrong.
 
Joined
Nov 24, 2011
Messages
7,834
Reaction Score
26,119
http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/01/sport/ncaa-response-to-lawsuit/index.html
No punishment coming for UNC is the way I'm reading this.

Pretty much. A whole lot of double talk coming from the NCAA. The president of the National College Players Association sums it up best "why does the NCAA exist". If the NCAA does not care about the student athlete, even though the NCAA posts academic standards and rules for eligibility or the health and safety of student athletes , why does the NCAA even exist?
 

UConnNick

from Vince Lombardi's home town
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Messages
5,074
Reaction Score
14,064
"Why does the NCAA exist?"

To preserve its status quo, at all costs. It's been totally corrupted by TV money, and is now apparently driven by a faction of renegade schools and college presidents who cannot get enough money to fund their wildly extravagant and out-of-control arms race to attract the best athletes, so they can make even more money. It's a vicious cycle that these university presidents put into motion back in the late 1980's when they took over control of the NCAA from the athletic directors. To get more money you break your own rules. Then, pretty soon the rules don't mean much of anything anymore.

Unfortunately, the "student-athletes" have been the ones who have suffered because of it. I knew a player on the baseball team at a major D-I NCAA university. He quit the team because he was only getting something like a 1/4 scholarship, yet it was expected that he would spend most of his time practicing with the team. He finally got tired of never having sufficient time to study, do his laundry, eat and do all the other things most people take for granted, called having a life. And baseball is not a revenue-producing sport.

HBO's current RealSports show interviewed a bunch of athletes, mostly in lesser sports at NCAA member institutions, who had a wide variety of complaints about the entire system. They were expected to spend countless hours practicing, were threatened with scholarship revocation on an annual basis if they didn't measure up performance-wise, and one girl became suicidal and actually attempted suicide. She was on the track team at Temple, throwing the discus. Really? They put that much pressure on a lower echelon, non-revenue producing sport athlete? If even half of her story is true it's deplorable.

The team athletes are only supposed to spend 25 hours per week on "team activities." The way some schools account for team activities is rather curious. One example cited was a team from Washington that travelled by bus for 3 1/2 hours each way to play a school in Oregon, plus their practice time prior to the game, meals, hotel stay, etc., etc., etc. The school reported they spent less than five hours on "team activities" for that entire trip. The problem is the NCAA doesn't define what constitutes a "team activity," so the schools get to make stuff up as they go along. I'd say it doesn't include travel, since we've got kids jetting cross country to play conference games nowadays.

Mark Emmert was a shady-dealing crook when he was at UCONN and he still is. He probably cost the taxpayers of Conn. millions, if not billions of dollars wasted on various construction projects at UCONN while he was chancellor. I always laugh just thinking about how quickly he left the podium after handing the 2014 men's NC trophy to Kevin Ollie. A lightning bolt wouldn't have gotten off that stage any faster.

How someone with as little character as this guy possesses ended up in charge of the NCAA is mystifying. Then again, maybe it's not. Maybe maintaining the status quo requires a gutter rat's mentality.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Online statistics

Members online
285
Guests online
2,123
Total visitors
2,408

Forum statistics

Threads
161,184
Messages
4,253,677
Members
10,097
Latest member
Burnt Corn


.
Top Bottom