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Message: [QUOTE="champs99and04, post: 2210744, member: 488"] It's impossible for be to believe that you can look at the numbers I cited from the '13 playoffs and not think he faded. It isn't just because he didn't have the ball in his hands. His field goal percentage went way down where it should have went up given the decline in usage that you mentioned. 46% from the field is good in a vacuum but not really when you can't shoot threes and can't get to the line. This is all part of you over-selling how good those Heat "super teams" were. The only time during that whole run when I really thought that was when they won 26 in a row in 2013 and maybe the back-end of the playoffs in 2012 when Bosh returned from injury. Before that they were starting replacement level players at point guard and center and after that D-Wade began to dip. If me talking about the fourth quarter of an NBA finals elimination game is being "selective" then yes I'm being selective, and just like you inflate how good those Heat teams were you do the opposite with the Spurs teams. Duncan was older but he was still playing at a Hall of Fame level - there is actually little on a per-minute basis to suggest that he was much different as a player than he was at 30 and if you look at his numbers throughout that finals he was still playing some of the best basketball of his career. He played over 36 minutes per game in those finals and played at the level of an all NBA player, outplaying Bosh, Wade, and everybody in that series besides LeBron. Then you had Green and Leonard on the wing, two perfect three and D guys even before Kawhi hit his prime (and he was getting there fast). Ginobili could still play, Tiago Splitter was rendered mostly useless in that series but was still a valuable spare part, and Tony Parker was still in his prime. In total they were a supremely skilled and cohesive unit that struck the perfect twilight between the beginning of one era and the end of another. Certainly, they lacked star power, but if you're going to penalize them for that than you should extend a reciprocal qualifier to the Thunder team he beat in 2012. Even though they hadn't quite reached their primes, that was about as star-studded a team as has been seen in NBA history. Of the six "black marks" you list against LeBron, I can only take #4 and maybe #5 seriously. I've never understood criticizing him for losing in the finals. Would he be better off losing in the second round? 2010 should definitely be held against him, though I wouldn't use the term "giving up." Posting 27, 19, and 10 in a road game 6 isn't exactly evidence that he gave up (and I know he shot poorly and had a ton of turnovers, but that isn't something I look at as quitting). I think a "serious argument" could be made for LeBron over Jordan, though I wouldn't make it. I agree he has work left to do, and if there is one component of his game that has always limited him in comparison to Jordan it is that he's not a natural one on one player. The fact that Kyrie gets the ball down the stretch much of the time for the Cavs isn't something I can ignore, not when a team like Golden State isn't doubling you. [/QUOTE]

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