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NBA Playoffs
- Thread starter superjohn
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intlzncster
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Not sure if it's been posted, but this is a great article from Zach Lowe about why and how the Celtics have been so effective these playoffs. Great breakdown.
Lowe: Brad Stevens and the Celtics have a special brand of toughness
Lowe: Brad Stevens and the Celtics have a special brand of toughness
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I mean maybe Philly just wasn’t that great and got a good draw in round 1 with a Miami team who did not at all “deserve” to be in the postseason
You choke away multiple games to rookies, role players, and old guys like they did... of course they have an outlook most teams would kill for but did Boston really do anything that miraculous? I’m sorry but the last thing I think of when I see Stevens and his sideline demeanor is “that guy really instills toughness in his team”
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The C's lose one of their two big guns for the season five minutes into their first game, lose their remaining big gun and one of their dependable reserves for the season in the Spring, they are starting one second-year player and a rookie whose combined ages don't add up to 40, they are playing the Eastern Conference Finals with somewhat of a chance (probably not a large one) to win the series, I'd take that in part to reflect on the ability of their coach to make them tough and remain focused on winning in spite of adversity. I'm reasonably certain that a large majority of the teams in the NBA would like to be where the C's are today and would hire their coach in a NY minute.
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Maybe we are just using different meaning of “tough”. I’m thinking JC tough. Toughness that was intimidating to the opposition. I distinguish toughness from perseverance, although they are doubly associated. And again, while you can’t not give the Celtics credit for making th necessary plays, the main point of my post was that maybe Philly wasn’t as good in the first place as their Miami series may lead one to believe
Congratulations, we are all fairly certain of such
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Mr. French
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You must be...the entire article is about how they use “tough” in a different way, and it’s instilled in them through Stevens and his stoic approach.
There’s really no question you’re using a different definition.
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They don't throw games away in high leverage situations. They don't collapse when faced with adversity. They take punches and keep moving forward. They do not rattle. When Philly hits a buzzerbeater at home to send a game to OT they don't fall apart and they close it out in the next session. To me, toughness is a hell of a lot more than puffing your chest out.
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The Celtics are, in one word, tough. It's the reason they won that series. Lowe references discipline and consistency as the keys to that toughness:
A lot of the Celtics' greatness on defense -- they led the league in points allowed per possession -- lies in the absence of schematic mistakes. It seems mundane, but for all five guys to do it right on 90 out of 100 possessions every game takes extraordinary discipline and hoops IQ.
Toughness is controlling what you can control. Are you going to stop working in the absence of immediate results? Does your approach to the game change when you're struggling from the field? Can you absorb an injury or two that would have demoralized most teams and continue humming?
He told the players Hayward would be OK. But Stevens wanted to shift their focus to the remaining 79 games. He warned them: Don't use your youth as excuse, Stevens and several players recalled. "Expedite your learning curve," Stevens remembered saying. "If there's film to watch, or something you need to work on with a coach, go do it."
Guys like Tatum and Brown had an out. Many people didn't expect them to beat Milwaukee. If they had made dumb mistakes to lose games, nobody would have gotten on them about it too much. They're young, part of the learning curve, etc. etc. Instead, they set their own bar higher and forced other teams to panic.
A lot of the Celtics' greatness on defense -- they led the league in points allowed per possession -- lies in the absence of schematic mistakes. It seems mundane, but for all five guys to do it right on 90 out of 100 possessions every game takes extraordinary discipline and hoops IQ.
Toughness is controlling what you can control. Are you going to stop working in the absence of immediate results? Does your approach to the game change when you're struggling from the field? Can you absorb an injury or two that would have demoralized most teams and continue humming?
He told the players Hayward would be OK. But Stevens wanted to shift their focus to the remaining 79 games. He warned them: Don't use your youth as excuse, Stevens and several players recalled. "Expedite your learning curve," Stevens remembered saying. "If there's film to watch, or something you need to work on with a coach, go do it."
Guys like Tatum and Brown had an out. Many people didn't expect them to beat Milwaukee. If they had made dumb mistakes to lose games, nobody would have gotten on them about it too much. They're young, part of the learning curve, etc. etc. Instead, they set their own bar higher and forced other teams to panic.
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I don't know if Stevens instills toughness so much as he channels it. The toughness itself is a credit to the players. Ainge specifically seeks those guys out during the draft evaluation process. If he has reservations about the competitiveness of a player, he'll back off. Identifying players with the right temperament is probably a bigger part of the job than managing it. Rozier, Tatum, Horford, Smart, and Brown came out of the womb with an edge. That's not Stevens.
But "fire" and "toughness" and "competitiveness" can turn to selfishness or anxiety real quick, and to the extent that Stevens has been able to nurture those attributes into a winning formula is a credit to him.
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Take the best two players off any NBA team and make a case for how they make the conference finals. Houston, Cleveland, Toronto, Bucks, Blazers, Spurs (lost 1) all would have no shot. Maybe Warriors and it’d be celebrated as extraordinary just like the Celtics are.
Sometimes when everyone has the same viewpoint it is not because no one considered the other side, it instead is because the view is right and incredibly obviously so.
the Q
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Except vital. He’s the one guy that does. Whaley is the only other one in the convo.
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I don't think Tatum or Horford really fit that mold coming in. The celtics staff certainly molded tatum, and have turned horf into one of the toughest bigs in the league, imo.
intlzncster
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All I have to do is watch his teams on the floor to know that whatever he's doing is working as far as toughness and playing hard. Accountability might be a big part of it.
Subtract the two best players from any team in the league and see what you get. How many would win games? Warriors would still win some. Maybe the rockets--probably not a series though. Can't think of too many others. [edit: @Dogdeacon keeps beating me to posts]
intlzncster
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I'm not sure too many teams in the NBA are intimidating in terms of "JC toughness" (anymore). The Warriors intimidation factor lies solely based on superior skill. There's not too many Oakley/Rodman types running around these days.
The toughness I see from the Celtics shows itself best in how they can come back from 15+ down with regularity. They're never out, even without the comparative elite star power of other teams. It's mental toughness.
I think Philly was probably a bit overrated, given the garbage they played (and admittedly beat) coming into the playoffs. But it's not like they were a pushover.
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Any Rockets fans here? Do they have any chance of beating the GSWs?
Looking back 2 years ago, the GS loss to Cleveland after being up 3-1 is probably the biggest choke job in the history of the NBA.
What about this year? They have 2 HOF locks (SC and KD), a probable HOF player (KT), a possible HOF player (Green). The two locks include the best shooter ever and possibly the best offensive player ever. They also have a very high level set of supporting players. If they don't win this year, barring injury, it would be a massive choke job.
Looking back 2 years ago, the GS loss to Cleveland after being up 3-1 is probably the biggest choke job in the history of the NBA.
What about this year? They have 2 HOF locks (SC and KD), a probable HOF player (KT), a possible HOF player (Green). The two locks include the best shooter ever and possibly the best offensive player ever. They also have a very high level set of supporting players. If they don't win this year, barring injury, it would be a massive choke job.
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intlzncster
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Not only that they've got lock down matchup D.
Despite talking heads, less than 2% chance Rockets win.
I would say that Houston has around a 40% chance to beat them. GS has proven to be capable of turning the ball over and that could cost them. And as pointed out, they have choked it away once, so it's always possible it could happen again. Having said that, I think Houston has to win the first game to have any shot at it, and I still just have trouble imagining anyone beating the Warriors 4 times in a series.
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GS turns the ball over too much, and they had the same issue they had two years ago (Steph Curry playing at less than 100%). But still, I think they're 80-20 to win. Durant being there, and being the best player on the floor, covers up most of this. And when they play the Cavs they'll have a close 2nd best player, in addition to Curry-Thompson-Green before we can get into a debate about borderline HOFers Iggy/Love.
the Q
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Yeah curry was hurt the whole series, bogus got hurt late in the series and Draymond probably cost them the title with his obsession with touching other men's junk.
It was just an odd collection of events, plus a beyond herculean effort by lebron and Kyrie hitting a fadeaway 3.
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Why do you say that? Not sure many within the organization would agree with that characterization of Horford.
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That he's one of the toughest bigs in the league? Or that he wasn't tough coming in? I think he was plenty "tough" coming in, but he's come into his own as a Celtic.
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Not buying that - it's a cover and complete Horse S---t. Dude just choked, which is what the team did. They were up 3-1. In game 4, Curry played 40 minutes and had 38 points in a win, shooting .538 from 3. Those aren't "injured player" numbers. Curry and the Ws choked away a 3-1 lead. They had an "historic" season and they followed it up with an "historic" choke job. Everything else is noise.
Really looking forward to the Rockets series.
Can't see any way the Cavaliers/Celtics beat them or even win a game.
intlzncster
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They choked it away sans KD. It's a whole other monster now.
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No doubt. The choke job in 2016 was the worst choke in NBA history.
If they don't win this year with potentially 5 HOF players on their roster, including the greatest shooter and greatest offensive player ever, it may end up being the worst choke in the history of sports.
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Lol, who is the 5th HOF player on the Warriors roster?
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The Falcons blew a 25 point 3rd quarter lead in the Super Bowl so there is that.
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Yeah, but they were playing against the greatest coach and QB in the history of the league, they weren't heavy favorites, and so on. 3-1 choke by GS is a much bigger choke, especially considering Game 7 was at home.
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