NBA Draft Sleepers:

[James]

Zach Lowe may be my favorite NBA writer. That article was a piece of garbage.

Playing hard is not stupid. Learning how to win is not stupid. Acquiring young, cheap talent is not stupid.

Purposely losing games is pathetic. The Celtics have done it before. I'd rather be these Celtics than the Sixers.

Like I said, if you're a Celtics can and you haven't enjoyed the out of this season, then I just feel bad for you.

And James Young can be quite nice. The kid is 19 years old.

nomar I think you need to pump the breaks lol i enjoy watching literally any form of basketball so this doesn't apply to me, but many fans just want 50+ win seasons. They can't really see glimpses of hope, they want the celtics to compete for the ECF ... not take small steps. All or nothing basically. Ainge is clearly one of the best gm's in the nba for how he hoodwinked brooklyn and that idiot dukie billy king, and on top of that he made one of the best coaching hires I can remember. the celtics and the bucks are two teams that can make an ATL like leap in the next few seasons. Eastern conference on the upswing

 

[nomar]

nomar I think you need to pump the breaks lol i enjoy watching literally any form of basketball so this doesn't apply to me, but many fans just want 50+ win seasons. They can't really see glimpses of hope, they want the celtics to compete for the ECF ... not take small steps. Ainge is clearly one of the best gm's in the nba for how he hoodwinked brooklyn and that idiot dukie billy king, and on top of that he made one of the best coaching hires I can remember. the celtics and the bucks are two teams that can make an ATL like leap in the next few seasons. Eastern conference on the upswing

Ainge has outclassed most of the NBA. The Celts aren't a "treadmill" team. They have a bunch of rotation players, and need one superstar to get the team to the next level. Once you get one star, it becomes easier to attract another in free agency. Lowe compared the Celts to the pre-Harden Rockets. Not a bad comparison. We just need one good trade. We have the assets; we just need to be lucky enough to get a good opportunity.

I post on the Celtics RealGM board and there is a loud minority of "tankers." Most Celtics fans on the board -- which is made up, for the most part, of knowledgeable NBA fans -- were in favor of playing hard. Obviously, everyone knew it would cost the team a few slots in the draft. So we won't get to draft the 19-year-old kid playing 5 minutes a game on a Spanish team. . The draft is a crapshoot. Mercer & Billups. We were too good for a bottom-5 pick. I'd rather have young talent and a brilliant coach, thank you.

 

[James]

@nomar yeah its interesting, the argument of fighting for the 8 seed or not... simmons always talks about it. is there that much difference between a few slots post lotto? It really boils down to scouting and how well you draft. Ainge was kinda out of control a few years ago with his drafting ( fab melo ... marshon brooks), I would hope stevens has a very meaningful say in this. The guy analyzes basketball at a higher level than most advanced scouts. BTW love realgm, team forums are hilarious. GB gets iffy

 

[johnhuskies95]

Zach Lowe may be my favorite NBA writer. That article was a piece of garbage. He undermined every point he made.

Playing hard is not stupid. Learning how to win is not stupid. Acquiring young, cheap talent is not stupid.

Purposely losing games is pathetic. The Celtics have done it before. I'd rather be these Celtics than the Sixers.

Like I said, if you're a Celtics can and you haven't enjoyed the hell out of this season, then I just feel bad for you.

And James Young can be quite nice. The kid is 19 years old.

All those things are nice, but I'm not sure how valuable it actually is. And getting a good player is almost definitely more valuable. Almost every NBA team plays hard. Learning how to win sounds more like a Skip Bayless-ism than anything else.

Maybe Ainge has a big trade planned, and Stevens is obviously a good coach. But the Celtics seem like they're at least 2 pieces away. I thought Lowe made a good point: the Celtics really need stars if they're going to win, and right now they don't have an easy way to get them.

Maybe I'm just more bullish on Sam Hinkie than most, but I love what he's done with the Sixers.

 

[gtcam]

Ainge has outclassed most of the NBA. The Celts aren't a "treadmill" team. They have a bunch of rotation players, and need one superstar to get the team to the next level. Once you get one star, it becomes easier to attract another in free agency. Lowe compared the Celts to the pre-Harden Rockets. Not a bad comparison. We just need one good trade. We have the assets; we just need to be lucky enough to get a good opportunity.

I post on the Celtics RealGM board and there is a loud minority of "tankers." Most Celtics fans on the board -- which is made up, for the most part, of knowledgeable NBA fans -- were in favor of playing hard. Obviously, everyone knew it would cost the team a few slots in the draft. So we won't get to draft the 19-year-old kid playing 5 minutes a game on a Spanish team. . The draft is a crapshoot. Mercer & Billups. We were too good for a bottom-5 pick. I'd rather have young talent and a brilliant coach, thank you.

I agree 100% with Nomar on this
I too am a huge Celtic fan and I have all the faith in the world with what Dan Ainge has been doing. He has got himself a fine corral of role players and fringe "stars" but is now positioning himself to get at least one "superstar" and at least 2 high picks the next 2 yrs.
This team could not be asked to "tank". They have players who play hard and compete, a great example is Crowder - loved him at marquette and just love him in Boston.
Ainge is making the team younger and more athletic.
I was not sure about Brad S as the coach but as the team gets younger I see him communicating differently in the huddles and I notice the players looking to him more for guidence - that is what was lacking with Rondo, Green etc.

 

[JimHurley]

I think an NBA Draft Sleeper is RJ Hunter from Georgia State. He is a lights out shooter and at 6'6" he has good height for a shooting guard. He can also play the point and with his height, that would cause plenty of matchup problems. I don't think he'll be a stud in the pros but he is more than capable of playing in the league for 10+ years and averaging 15 PPG.

 

[tykurez]

I think an NBA Draft Sleeper is RJ Hunter from Georgia State. He is a lights out shooter and at 6'6" he has good height for a shooting guard. He can also play the point and with his height, that would cause plenty of matchup problems. I don't think he'll be a stud in the pros but he is more than capable of playing in the league for 10+ years and averaging 15 PPG.

Good one. I think the kid has Tayshaun Prince written all over him. He may not eclipse 15ppg but he has great height for his position and a nice skill set.

 

[nomar]

All those things are nice, but I'm not sure how valuable it actually is. And getting a good player is almost definitely more valuable. Almost every NBA team plays hard. Learning how to win sounds more like a Skip Bayless-ism than anything else.

Maybe Ainge has a big trade planned, and Stevens is obviously a good coach. But the Celtics seem like they're at least 2 pieces away. I thought Lowe made a good point: the Celtics really need stars if they're going to win, and right now they don't have an easy way to get them.

Maybe I'm just more bullish on Sam Hinkie than most, but I love what he's done with the Sixers.

I think it is valuable. When are the Sixers going to be in a position to trade for or sign a star player? 5 years? More? I understand what SH is doing but they're on their own kind of treadmill, drafting players and discarding them quickly if they don't look like a superstar. And if you're a Sixers fan, you have to be miserable. If I was a Sixers fan, I wouldn't pay a cent to go to a game.

But the Celtics, they are looking more attractive. Chris Webber was really talking them up during Game 2, and the TNT crew was impressed as well. They're a team on the rise, and Stevens is getting a good reputation. That doesn't guarantee anything, but which teams are guaranteed great free agents? They're in a position to succeed, and to succeed rather quickly, if the right dominoes fall.

And as far as building a winning culture and instilling confidence in the players, I can't imagine you think that doesn't matter at all. (If I say playing next to Kemba in 2011 helped Shabazz in 2014, does that make me Skip Bayless?) This is invaluable experience for a guy like Marcus Smart. Not to mention Stevens.

The Celtics are really no farther away then they would have been had they won 35 games. And they were simply too good to win less than that. They didn't have major injuries that they could have exploited (except for Sullinger, but by the time he returned the die had already been cast).

Lowe started with a clickbait headline but every point he made was contradicted by something else he said. He could have just as easily defended the "decision" to compete, and "supported it" by changing a handful of words in the article. Yes, the Celtics are currently several significant moves away from a title. But just as easily as you could say that making the playoffs gave them a 1% or 5% worse chance of winning a title in 5 years, you could argue -- based on all the facts and speculation contained in his article -- that doing what they've done improved their chances by that much, or more. And in the meantime, we're watching a bunch of players (and a coach) develop.

 

[johnhuskies95]

I think it is valuable. When are the Sixers going to be in a position to trade for or sign a star player? 5 years? More? I understand what SH is doing but they're on their own kind of treadmill, drafting players and discarding them quickly if they don't look like a superstar. And if you're a Sixers fan, you have to be miserable. If I was a Sixers fan, I wouldn't pay a cent to go to a game.

But the Celtics, they are looking more attractive. Chris Webber was really talking them up during Game 2, and the TNT crew was impressed as well. They're a team on the rise, and Stevens is getting a good reputation. That doesn't guarantee anything, but which teams are guaranteed great free agents? They're in a position to succeed, and to succeed rather quickly, if the right dominoes fall.

And as far as building a winning culture and instilling confidence in the players, I can't imagine you think that doesn't matter at all. (If I say playing next to Kemba in 2011 helped Shabazz in 2014, does that make me Skip Bayless?) This is invaluable experience for a guy like Marcus Smart. Not to mention Stevens.

The Celtics are really no farther away then they would have been had they won 35 games. And they were simply too good to win less than that. They didn't have major injuries that they could have exploited (except for Sullinger, but by the time he returned the die had already been cast).

Lowe started with a clickbait headline but every point he made was contradicted by something else he said. He could have just as easily defended the "decision" to compete, and "supported it" by changing a handful of words in the article. Yes, the Celtics are currently several significant moves away from a title. But just as easily as you could say that making the playoffs gave them a 1% or 5% worse chance of winning a title in 5 years, you could argue -- based on all the facts and speculation contained in his article -- that doing what they've done improved their chances by that much, or more. And in the meantime, we're watching a bunch of players (and a coach) develop.

What makes you say that it'll be 5 years until the Sixers are in position to get a star? They have a ridiculous amount of cap space, and I'd argue that they have more valuable trade assets right now than the Celtics do. In the NBA you can improve really quickly, it's not like the Sixers are resigned to being bad for another 5 years. They'll probably be bad again next year and then they'll start to really contend.

Like you said, free agency is a crapshoot. Even the Lakers got shut out last year. Hinkie knows that, which is why he's taking matters into his own hands, doing what he can do now to put the Sixers in position to either draft a superstar or have enough pieces to trade for one.

To me, the Celtics are on similar ground as Charlotte was last year: over perform a bit relative to your talent level, get swept by LeBron in the playoffs, and then hope that next year you can somehow do the same thing. And I don't think that's a desirable position. I don't put a lot of stock in the winning culture thing. The Clippers didn't get drastically better in 2012 because their culture improved, they got drastically better because they got Chris Paul. Napier played really well last year because he's really good, IMO Kemba didn't have a whole lot to do with it.

Ainge is a smart guy, so maybe he's had a big trade planned all along, we'll see.

 

[nomar]

What makes you say that it'll be 5 years until the Sixers are in position to get a star? They have a ridiculous amount of cap space, and I'd argue that they have more valuable trade assets right now than the Celtics do. In the NBA you can improve really quickly, it's not like the Sixers are resigned to being bad for another 5 years. They'll probably be bad again next year and then they'll start to really contend.

Like you said, free agency is a crapshoot. Even the Lakers got shut out last year. Hinkie knows that, which is why he's taking matters into his own hands, doing what he can do now to put the Sixers in position to either draft a superstar or have enough pieces to trade for one.

To me, the Celtics are on similar ground as Charlotte was last year: over perform a bit relative to your talent level, get swept by LeBron in the playoffs, and then hope that next year you can somehow do the same thing. And I don't think that's a desirable position. I don't put a lot of stock in the winning culture thing. The Clippers didn't get drastically better in 2012 because their culture improved, they got drastically better because they got Chris Paul. Napier played really well last year because he's really good, IMO Kemba didn't have a whole lot to do with it.

Ainge is a smart guy, so maybe he's had a big trade planned all along, we'll see.

I don't see the Charlotte/Boston comparison. The Celts have a treasure trove of picks. And tons of cap space. We can agree to disagree on whether playoff experience helps players. Frankly, I didn't think that was something anybody could disagree with; one could say it's overrated, but I don't think I've been overstating its importance.

The Sixers have 2 really good assets, excluding Saric: Noel and Embiid (who happen to play the same position). The rest of that team is a joke. Sure, Noel and Embiid are worth more than anyone on the Celtics, but every player on the Celtics is an asset. The Sixers are trotting out D-Leaguers.

Other teams have tanked (post-2005 Celtics, for example), but SH is taking it to the next level, and the NBA's going to have to do something about it. He's running that team like Chainsaw Al. Now, as to whether he'll actually come out on the other successfully, that's anybody's guess. I'd rather be the Celtics. You can take the Sixers. Frankly, what Ainge has done is a lot more impressive than what Hinkie has done. Seriously, name something impressive that he's done besides decide to tank as hard as possible? Anybody can make their team as sh'tty as possible. Ainge, on the other hand, has turned a title contender into a tough young team with heaps of cap space, tradeable assets and draft picks.

 

[johnhuskies95]

I don't see the Charlotte/Boston comparison. The Celts have a treasure trove of picks. And tons of cap space. We can agree to disagree on whether playoff experience helps players. Frankly, I didn't think that was something anybody could disagree with; one could say it's overrated, but I don't think I've been overstating its importance.

The Sixers have 2 really good assets, excluding Saric: Noel and Embiid (who happen to play the same position). The rest of that team is a joke. Sure, Noel and Embiid are worth more than anyone on the Celtics, but every player on the Celtics is an asset. The Sixers are trotting out D-Leaguers.

Other teams have tanked (post-2005 Celtics, for example), but SH is taking it to the next level, and the NBA's going to have to do something about it. He's running that team like Chainsaw Al. Now, as to whether he'll actually come out on the other successfully, that's anybody's guess. I'd rather be the Celtics. You can take the Sixers. Frankly, what Ainge has done is a lot more impressive than what Hinkie has done. Seriously, name something impressive that he's done besides decide to tank as hard as possible? Anybody can make their team as sh'tty as possible. Ainge, on the other hand, has turned a title contender into a tough young team with heaps of cap space, tradeable assets and draft picks.

The Sixers have the most cap space in the league and the same amount of first round picks coming in as the Celtics do. They also will have a top 3 pick in the draft this year. The Celtics are obviously better than the Sixers now, but with all the cap space the Sixers have I'm sure Hinkie could put together a playoff team in the East for next year if he really wanted to. The East is so bad 6-15 that I don't see a huge difference in making the playoffs only to get swept vs not making the playoffs in terms of how far away you are from being good.

Look at the Bucks. They were the worst team in the league last year, but they added some guys and turned it on this year to make the playoffs. It's not like baseball where you're destined to be bad for 5 years because you're bad this year.

Saying that every player on the Celtics is an asset is pretty homerific. Do you really think someone like Tyler Zeller is going to move the needle in the trade market?

 

[James]

@johnhuskies95 zeller actually had a solid, very solid year. The sixers are not really close on the rebuild curve to the celtics, they have a lame duck coach and pretty much only two-three nba players on their roster (noel, covington). You mention the bucks, but they have vets who've been to the playoffs( zaza, ilyasova for the bucks). And then you have the looming prospect of saric waiting out his rookie deal in europe until the cap jumps...They pretty much need to hit this draft's pick out the park to really get on a path to playoff contention.

 

[nomar]

The Sixers have the most cap space in the league and the same amount of first round picks coming in as the Celtics do. They also will have a top 3 pick in the draft this year. The Celtics are obviously better than the Sixers now, but with all the cap space the Sixers have I'm sure Hinkie could put together a playoff team in the East for next year if he really wanted to. The East is so bad 6-15 that I don't see a huge difference in making the playoffs only to get swept vs not making the playoffs in terms of how far away you are from being good.

Look at the Bucks. They were the worst team in the league last year, but they added some guys and turned it on this year to make the playoffs. It's not like baseball where you're destined to be bad for 5 years because you're bad this year.

Saying that every player on the Celtics is an asset is pretty homerific. Do you really think someone like Tyler Zeller is going to move the needle in the trade market?

Zeller is 25 years old. And like James said, he had a really nice year. He's not a rim protector, but he's a nice finisher. (36 mpg numbers: 17.3 ppg on 55% shooting and 9.7 rpg; 6.5 Win Shares; 19.01 PER.) He's worth at least an early 2nd round pick. That's an asset. I'm not sure what you mean by "move the needle." They could trade him and get something back. That's an asset. (To be fair, Phil Pressey isn't an asset, and Datome could at most fetch a mid-2nd rounder. But Wallace's expiring contract is an asset...finally.) 7-8 guys on the Sixers roster are literally worthless.

And sure, let's look at the Bucks. Their best asset -- and arguably the best player in the 2013 NBA Draft -- was the 15th pick in the draft. I just don't get the hand-wringing over a few spots in the draft. The Celtics were never going to finish in the bottom 5. They won 10+ games more than 7 teams.

 

[johnhuskies95]

@johnhuskies95 zeller actually had a solid, very solid year. The sixers are not really close on the rebuild curve to the celtics, they have a lame duck coach and pretty much only two-three nba players on their roster (noel, covington). You mention the bucks, but they have vets who've been to the playoffs( zaza, ilyasova for the bucks). And then you have the looming prospect of saric waiting out his rookie deal in europe until the cap jumps...They pretty much need to hit this draft's pick out the park to really get on a path to playoff contention.

I'm not saying Zeller is bad but guys like him are a dime or dozen in the league. There wouldn't be a huge return on him if he were traded.

The point is that the Sixers have the cap space to get to where the Bucks are if they really wanted to by signing a bunch of solid veteran guys. They only have 24 million committed for next year, and that includes McGee, who they'll rob ably try and trade. They have a ton of flexibility for moves.

I guess what I'm saying is that if Philly's owner went to Hinkie and gave him an ultimatum saying he had to make the playoffs next year or lose his job, he'd be able to do it. I don't think Ainge has done anything so far that Hinkie couldn't do himself.

Either way, both teams are going to need to get a superstar to really contend. I think the Sixers have a better shot at it than the Celtics.

 

[nomar]

Agree to disagree but good discussion.