Myth-busting Friday: Amida Brimah is a bad rebounder and provides little offensively | The Boneyard

Myth-busting Friday: Amida Brimah is a bad rebounder and provides little offensively

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
9,379
Reaction Score
23,676
Clearly, we have our bases covered here in regards to admonishing the players and staff for their latest loss, a game that really put a bow on a pattern of poor play. Although I'm still trying to exercise patience, I don't blame those who are signaling the alarm bells.

Hopefully, this thread provides a brief excursion from the problems that currently plague the program.

Amida Brimah is as polarizing and divisive a player as has donned a UConn jersey in quite some time (perhaps since Dyson). Certainly, the tenor of that dialogue shifts depending on what part of his game is being discussed; his value as a rim deterrent is fairly consentual among the fan base, and he harbors flaws that even his biggest supporters will concede.

One of the central dilemma's in assessing his value is rebounding. Is it a treatable weakness that has been blown out of proportion, or is it a fatal flaw that renders him a liability against elite competition? Theoretically, swapping Brimah for Facey makes us, if nothing else, a better rebounding team. Hamilton, Miller, and Facey are our three best rebounders, and when they share the court together, UConn can tap into a reservoir of extra possessions that Brimah prohibited us from ever realizing. There lies the question: is it a myth that Brimah is a bad rebounder?

The evidence suggests that it might be. In the nine games Brimah has played this season, UConn has averaged 39 rebounds per game to their opponent's 36. In the seven games since his injury, UConn has averaged 35 rebounds per game to their opponent's 33.

In other words, UConn has actually gotten slightly worse taking the ball off the backboard since their much-maligned center was replaced in the starting lineup by Kentan Facey.

And, by the way, I did account for competition, a variable that actually strengthens Brimah's case. If we were to cut the Maine, New Hampshire, Furman, Sacred Heart, UMass, and Central Connecticut from the sample, the proportions remain the same.

Against our Battle for Atlantis foes, Maryland, and Ohio State, UConn grabbed 34 rebounds per game to their opponent's 36 (this is heavily skewed by a huge outlier in the Maryland game, in which we were-out-rebounded 45 to 24. In that game, Brimah had 7 rebounds in 18 minutes).

Over the last five games - disregarding our first two tilts without Brimah, against UMass-Lowell and Central Connecticut, respectively - UConn has averaged 34 rebounds per game to their opponent's 39. Tonight, Facey, Miller, and Hamilton played a combined 88 minutes, and yet, a Tulsa team that frequently plays four guards outrebounded us 41-38.

Raw rebounding numbers are hardly conclusive. Tracking things like defensive rebounding% and total rebound% are likely to paint a more accurate picture than my elementary research provides. For one, rebounding is highly contingent on defense. Obviously, the more misses you force, the more rebounds that are available to you. The data set can be easily skewed in that regard.

But given that we're on a six game streak of holding opponents to 40% or less from the field, I'm not sure that caveat applies in this case. Teams are missing against us a lot and we're rebounding less of them without Brimah than we were with him.

Then, there's the matter of his offensive value. Some view him as a valuable rim-runner who soaks up bodies and enhances the shooting percentage of everyone else. Others maintain that we are playing 4 on 5 with him at the center spot. I could well be wrong - as I don't have the energy to research our offensive efficiency with and without him - but my best guess suggests that there's at least one guy who would disagree with the detractors: Daniel Hamilton.

During the first nine games of the season, Hamilton averaged 13.3 PPG on 45% shooting. In the seven games since Brimah's injury, Hamilton has averaged 11.1 PPG on 31% shooting. To put that into perspective, Hamilton would have to hit his next 20 shots to go from 31% to 45%.

Losing to Temple and Tulsa is unacceptable, with or without Brimah. And there are recurring, troubling trends that aren't simply going to vanish upon his return.

If there's one positive we can take from this stretch, maybe it's that this kid is better than some gave him credit for?
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
33,781
Reaction Score
98,010
Maybe but here's the facts.

Temple scored 55 and Tulsa 60 (with FT's). If he was going to provide 12-14 a game then yes but he doesn't. facts are we can't score the ball in our losses so while people continue to throw this out there, it had little or nothing to do with the L's. Both winnable games no matter and we don't have t firepower on O even when he returns. If we make some 3's in games we win if we do't we don't have answer with or without our bigs playing well or playing at all. That's the major issue here.
 
Joined
Sep 10, 2015
Messages
125
Reaction Score
442
One thing we are over looking is what Brimah brings when he is the game.... Block shots that leads to easy transition basket the other way for our guards. Tulsa had 6 block shots to our 2.... and other teams driving at will with no threat inside to redirect or make them think twice on the drive, all we do is foul them and make them go to the free strip. I for one miss AB in the Center spot.... ok he is not a offense beast but defense he is a blocking and redirecting shot beast :)
 

pnow15

Previously pnete
Joined
Oct 15, 2014
Messages
4,662
Reaction Score
2,638
Wasn't Brimah averaging 8pts a game, 5rbs and 3 blocks?

No one has replaced the 8pts, 5rbs and 3 blocks?

Not to mention intangibles.

Brimah was the one guy we couldn't afford to lose.

Brimah could not post but teams had to pay attention to him.
No one game plans for Facey.

The threat of the lob on the offense end was nearly as effective as the threat of the block on the defensive end.
 

CL82

NCAA Men’s Basketball National Champions - Again!
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
59,053
Reaction Score
219,871
@champs99and04 Brimah is a bad rebounder, at least on the offensive boards. What I think the numbers you posted may suggest (and BTW thanks for putting that together, they were interesting) is that Brimah's presence forces bad shots by our opponents leading to more rebound opportunities. I think you'd have to compare attempts to shots made to validate or disprove that assumption. If correct than Brimah's failure to box out and get offensive rebounds is offset by the fact that people have to adjust their shots. Interesting.
 

gtcam

Diehard since '65
Joined
Sep 12, 2012
Messages
11,153
Reaction Score
29,495
Brimah's presence in the game affects what other teams do offensively so they shoot more from the outside. Brimah is still a real bad rebounder for someone his size.
The issue at this point is not rebounding in as much as this time cannot score the ball - inside, outside, mid range - everywhere
UConn has, on paper, guys who are proven scorers and are probably world beaters in practice. Start an official game and they look like deer in the headlights.
Hamiliton is the only one who "tries" to get to the hoop and even he has gotten away from that - everything is east/west.
Does the team miss Brimah - hell yeah
But I am hesitant to think that him returning will turn on the scoring spigot. maybe i'm wrong (hopeful) but I don't see it happening.
 

intlzncster

i fart in your general direction
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
28,931
Reaction Score
60,234
Clearly, we have our bases covered here in regards to admonishing the players and staff for their latest loss, a game that really put a bow on a pattern of poor play. Although I'm still trying to exercise patience, I don't blame those who are signaling the alarm bells.

Hopefully, this thread provides a brief excursion from the problems that currently plague the program.

Amida Brimah is as polarizing and divisive a player as has donned a UConn jersey in quite some time (perhaps since Dyson). Certainly, the tenor of that dialogue shifts depending on what part of his game is being discussed; his value as a rim deterrent is fairly consentual among the fan base, and he harbors flaws that even his biggest supporters will concede.

One of the central dilemma's in assessing his value is rebounding. Is it a treatable weakness that has been blown out of proportion, or is it a fatal flaw that renders him a liability against elite competition? Theoretically, swapping Brimah for Facey makes us, if nothing else, a better rebounding team. Hamilton, Miller, and Facey are our three best rebounders, and when they share the court together, UConn can tap into a reservoir of extra possessions that Brimah prohibited us from ever realizing. There lies the question: is it a myth that Brimah is a bad rebounder?

The evidence suggests that it might be. In the nine games Brimah has played this season, UConn has averaged 39 rebounds per game to their opponent's 36. In the seven games since his injury, UConn has averaged 35 rebounds per game to their opponent's 33.

In other words, UConn has actually gotten slightly worse taking the ball off the backboard since their much-maligned center was replaced in the starting lineup by Kentan Facey.

And, by the way, I did account for competition, a variable that actually strengthens Brimah's case. If we were to cut the Maine, New Hampshire, Furman, Sacred Heart, UMass, and Central Connecticut from the sample, the proportions remain the same.

Against our Battle for Atlantis foes, Maryland, and Ohio State, UConn grabbed 34 rebounds per game to their opponent's 36 (this is heavily skewed by a huge outlier in the Maryland game, in which we were-out-rebounded 45 to 24. In that game, Brimah had 7 rebounds in 18 minutes).

Over the last five games - disregarding our first two tilts without Brimah, against UMass-Lowell and Central Connecticut, respectively - UConn has averaged 34 rebounds per game to their opponent's 39. Tonight, Facey, Miller, and Hamilton played a combined 88 minutes, and yet, a Tulsa team that frequently plays four guards outrebounded us 41-38.

Raw rebounding numbers are hardly conclusive. Tracking things like defensive rebounding% and total rebound% are likely to paint a more accurate picture than my elementary research provides. For one, rebounding is highly contingent on defense. Obviously, the more misses you force, the more rebounds that are available to you. The data set can be easily skewed in that regard.

But given that we're on a six game streak of holding opponents to 40% or less from the field, I'm not sure that caveat applies in this case. Teams are missing against us a lot and we're rebounding less of them without Brimah than we were with him.

Then, there's the matter of his offensive value. Some view him as a valuable rim-runner who soaks up bodies and enhances the shooting percentage of everyone else. Others maintain that we are playing 4 on 5 with him at the center spot. I could well be wrong - as I don't have the energy to research our offensive efficiency with and without him - but my best guess suggests that there's at least one guy who would disagree with the detractors: Daniel Hamilton.

During the first nine games of the season, Hamilton averaged 13.3 PPG on 45% shooting. In the seven games since Brimah's injury, Hamilton has averaged 11.1 PPG on 31% shooting. To put that into perspective, Hamilton would have to hit his next 20 shots to go from 31% to 45%.

Losing to Temple and Tulsa is unacceptable, with or without Brimah. And there are recurring, troubling trends that aren't simply going to vanish upon his return.

If there's one positive we can take from this stretch, maybe it's that this kid is better than some gave him credit for?

Great stuff as usual champs.
 

intlzncster

i fart in your general direction
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
28,931
Reaction Score
60,234
Maybe but here's the facts.

Temple scored 55 and Tulsa 60 (with FT's). If he was going to provide 12-14 a game then yes but he doesn't. facts are we can't score the ball in our losses so while people continue to throw this out there, it had little or nothing to do with the L's. Both winnable games no matter and we don't have t firepower on O even when he returns. If we make some 3's in games we win if we do't we don't have answer with or without our bigs playing well or playing at all. That's the major issue here.

It's not as simple as that though. What is Facey scoring per game? So at worst he's got to match that, and we've seen above that rebounding doesn't change.

Also, the most important point in champ's post above is the effect Brimah's presence seems to have on others scoring, notably Hamilton's. We've noticed him being very indecisive lately on his drives. When he has the Brimah-lob security blanket, he seems to make much better decisions. It's sort of his 'out' play.

Can't wait for the big guy to return.
 

Mazhude

"Bark, Bark!"
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
821
Reaction Score
3,606
Clearly, we have our bases covered here in regards to admonishing the players and staff for their latest loss, a game that really put a bow on a pattern of poor play. Certainly, the tenor of that dialogue shifts depending on what part of his game is being discussed; his value as a rim deterrent is fairly consentual among the fan base, and he harbors flaws that even his biggest supporters will concede.

I for one want to hear more about this "consensual fan base..." :p
 
Joined
Jul 22, 2013
Messages
532
Reaction Score
670
Each game our players, especially our bigs, seem to get in foul trouble. At the very least Brimah helps to combat that issue of foul trouble by being another capable body. Then in addition, you have to worry about his lobs and defensive shot blocking ability - which can directly lead to easy baskets
 

intlzncster

i fart in your general direction
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
28,931
Reaction Score
60,234
I for one want to hear more about this "consensual fan base..." :p

While I get where you are going with this, if you saw pictures of all the members, I'm not so sure you would.

And yes, I realize there's a fantastic pun in there, depending on your sense of humor.
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
9,379
Reaction Score
23,676
@champs99and04 Brimah is a bad rebounder, at least on the offensive boards. What I think the numbers you posted may suggest (and BTW thanks for putting that together, they were interesting) is that Brimah's presence forces bad shots by our opponents leading to more rebound opportunities. I think you'd have to compare attempts to shots made to validate or disprove that assumption. If correct than Brimah's failure to box out and get offensive rebounds is offset by the fact that people have to adjust their shots. Interesting.

You might be right, but I'm not convinced. As stated, we are on a six game streak of holding opponents to 40% or less from the field. Without looking up the numbers, I'd be willing to bet that we are forcing opponents into misses at a similar or better rate without Brimah than with him (which you wouldn't have expected).

Individually, there's no question that Brimah is below average (though his rate this season is a lot closer to serviceable). But individual rebounding numbers don't always tell the whole story - there are plenty of guys whose teams rebound better with them on the court, even if their individual rebounding numbers are underwhelming. Roy Hibbert has always been one of these guys in the NBA. Doesn't get a lot of rebounds for a 7'2 guy, but his teams tend to rebound well because of his presence. Jason Collins is in the same category.

I'm not even saying that Brimah is one of these guys. I think it's fair to wonder, though, if the extent to which he is portrayed as a bad rebounder is overstated.
 
Joined
Mar 19, 2015
Messages
2,985
Reaction Score
9,300
Myth busting Friday: the Boneyard is a miserable, miserable place after losses
 

willie99

Loving life & enjoying the ride, despite the bumps
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
7,171
Reaction Score
22,212
he's a bad rebounder, that's not no myth, that's in the box scores :)

but it looks like he created space for Dham on offense
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Online statistics

Members online
415
Guests online
2,336
Total visitors
2,751

Forum statistics

Threads
159,051
Messages
4,178,607
Members
10,050
Latest member
MTSuitsky


.
Top Bottom