MSG has 10 years left

[DarthGrumpy]

MetLife is a good stadium, allows for great tailgating, and is easy for me to get too in NJ. That said, a 60K-80K football stadium in Manhattan itself would have been intense. Such a stadium would compete with the Rose Bowl for any marquee sports match-up outside of the NFL.

To those who think downtown stadiums don’t work, just look at London, which has similar demographics to NYC – Wembley (new) 90K, Twickenham (rugby) 82K, Olympic (80K temp, 54K permanent), Emirates 60K, Stamford Bridge 55K (to be rebuilt or replaced w/ +60K).

As for MSG/Penn Station, I believe the plan to use both Penn Station and the Old Post Office to build an entire new train station. The reason being is that with everyone wants greater access to the West side of Manhattan. Amtrak looking to invest and expand the very successful Northeast high corridor. NJ Transit needing more slots into NYC as job growth is rapidly shifting back from the burbs to the city. The first two will be helped by a new train tunnel under the Hudson. MetroNorth is working on the train lines in the Bronx to allow direct service on the Hudson and New Haven lines into Penn Station. Plus, there is the potential that the new Tappan Zee Bridge will include a train line, which will allow for commuter rail access from Rockland and Orange counties in New York to Penn Station. All of that demand cannot fit into Penn Station alone, even with the LIR diverting some trains from Penn Station to Grand Central in the near (hopefully) future.

 

[J187Money]

Talked to someone at MSG yesterday. They don't think they are going anywhere. They think this is an election year vote that will be reneged upon down the road.

 

[FDNY99]

As for MSG/Penn Station, I believe the plan to use both Penn Station and the Old Post Office to build an entire new train station. The reason being is that with everyone wants greater access to the West side of Manhattan. Amtrak looking to invest and expand the very successful Northeast high corridor. NJ Transit needing more slots into NYC as job growth is rapidly shifting back from the burbs to the city. The first two will be helped by a new train tunnel under the Hudson. MetroNorth is working on the train lines in the Bronx to allow direct service on the Hudson and New Haven lines into Penn Station. Plus, there is the potential that the new Tappan Zee Bridge will include a train line, which will allow for commuter rail access from Rockland and Orange counties in New York to Penn Station. All of that demand cannot fit into Penn Station alone, even with the LIR diverting some trains from Penn Station to Grand Central in the near (hopefully) future.

I work with a guy in my firehouse who is a sandhog. He has said there are no new tunnel projects that are a go right now in NYC outside of what is already being worked on (7 train extension is done, LIRR or as we call it East Side Access to Grand Central is past 1/2 way point, 2nd Ave Subway project in progress). The LIRR will have a direct train to GCT when that project is finished from Atlantic Ave in South Jamaica so you can connect to air train to JFK. As for rail access on the new Tappan Zee..forget about it..the design that was accepted contained no rail provision what so ever..nor can one be added to it in the future. Tbere are also no dedicated bus lanes either. This will turn out to be a HUGE mistake! My company is constantly doing inspections on the projects in Manhattan as they progress since we are responsible for any and all technical rescues. Some of the stuff you mentioned is on a wish list but most likely not going to happen (like Metro North trains to Penn ).

 

[FDNY99]

Talked to someone at MSG yesterday. They don't think they are going anywhere. They think this is an election year vote that will be reneged upon down the road.

Dolan was pretty blatant about why he renovated MSG..it will be interesting to see if his boasts about not wanting to lose his tax breaks causes the City Council to force his hand. Do I think it will happen (force Dolan to build a new MSG).. no...BUT the fact they only gave him 10 yrs puts it at least up for discussion!

 

[J187Money]

The vote was between a ten year lease or a permanent lease. So the outcome was fairly obvious. It really wasn't a vote to kick them out. They can just extend the lease in 10 years.

 

[Adios]

I love that the replacement MSG/Penn Station price tag was FOURTEEN BILLION DOLLARS.

I love how you put it in capital letters.

 

[FDNY99]

The vote was between a ten year lease or a permanent lease. So the outcome was fairly obvious. It really wasn't a vote to kick them out. They can just extend the lease in 10 years.

I know...But Dolan wanted a permanent lease...and he was only given the 10 yr term. My neighbor also works for the Knicks..that is where I got the info on why the Garden was renovated. Don't forget a new MSG was part of the original plans for a new Penn Station that were unveiled a few years back. Dolan was on board with that plan then suddenly did the renovation instead keeping his tax breaks. He will get his lease in time..BUT the 10 lease is the City Council shooting a shot across his bow. When your name isn't Larry Silverstein or Donald Trump it isn't so easy to push the NYC City Council around.

 

[zls44]

I love how you put it in capital letters.

Proper effect.

 

[J187Money]

Would be crazy to give anyone a permanent lease. For anything.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

I work with a guy in my firehouse who is a sandhog. He has said there are no new tunnel projects that are a go right now in NYC outside of what is already being worked on (7 train extension is done, LIRR or as we call it East Side Access to Grand Central is past 1/2 way point, 2nd Ave Subway project in progress). The LIRR will have a direct train to GCT when that project is finished from Atlantic Ave in South Jamaica so you can connect to air train to JFK. As for rail access on the new Tappan Zee..forget about it..the design that was accepted contained no rail provision what so ever..nor can one be added to it in the future. Tbere are also no dedicated bus lanes either. This will turn out to be a HUGE mistake! My company is constantly doing inspections on the projects in Manhattan as they progress since we are responsible for any and all technical rescues. Some of the stuff you mentioned is on a wish list but most likely not going to happen (like Metro North trains to Penn ).

Other than praying every time I drive over a bridge that was built in the 50’s that handles double the load it was designed for and was only supposed to last 50 years, I have not followed what design has been approved or not approved.

As for MetroNorth trains to Penn Station, I believe there is an agreement within the MTA to give MetroNorth access to Penn Station in exchange for LIRR access to Grand Central. So, the question is when not if. Logistically, I believe MetroNorth is going to loop trains along the Harlem River past Yankee Stadium and then use the existing Amtrak rail along the West Side into Penn Station.

I do believe that a 3rd rail tunnel will be built between NJ and NYC in the not too distant future. Just too much riding on it – the need to modernize and speed-up the nation’s only profitable rail corridor, NJ transit has maxed out the use of the two current tunnels and heaven forbid one of the tunnels is shut down for more than a day, and the shift of traditional ’suburban’ from NJ back into NYC.

As for Penn Station itself, it needs to be replaced even without the extra traffic that will be coming in over the next 10 to 20 years.

The 10 year lease is a loud warning shot to Dolan to play ball or else.

 

[FDNY99]

Other than praying every time I drive over a bridge that was built in the 50’s that handles double the load it was designed for and was only supposed to last 50 years, I have not followed what design has been approved or not approved.

As for MetroNorth trains to Penn Station, I believe there is an agreement within the MTA to give MetroNorth access to Penn Station in exchange for LIRR access to Grand Central. So, the question is when not if. Logistically, I believe MetroNorth is going to loop trains along the Harlem River past Yankee Stadium and then use the existing Amtrak rail along the West Side into Penn Station.

I do believe that a 3rd rail tunnel will be built between NJ and NYC in the not too distant future. Just too much riding on it – the need to modernize and speed-up the nation’s only profitable rail corridor, NJ transit has maxed out the use of the two current tunnels and heaven forbid one of the tunnels is shut down for more than a day, and the shift of traditional ’suburban’ from NJ back into NYC.

As for Penn Station itself, it needs to be replaced even without the extra traffic that will be coming in over the next 10 to 20 years.

The 10 year lease is a loud warning shot to Dolan to play ball or else.

We shall see...but from what I have been told by the MTA guy in charge of the LIRR east side access project about Metro North trains going to Penn Station I won't be expecting it any time soon. The new rail tunnel project will most likely be run by the Port Authority...and everyone knows how long they take to do things!

 

[kingdobbs]

As for MetroNorth trains to Penn Station, I believe there is an agreement within the MTA to give MetroNorth access to Penn Station in exchange for LIRR access to Grand Central. So, the question is when not if. Logistically, I believe MetroNorth is going to loop trains along the Harlem River past Yankee Stadium and then use the existing Amtrak rail along the West Side into Penn Station.

The "when" is pretty much entirely when Penn Station has the capacity to give MNR it's own space in the station.

The Hudson line is going to be doing as you describe, in MNR's plans (with passengers switching in the Bronx), but the New Haven line will not. New Haven will be adding a few stations in the Bronx and connecting through the Hell Gate Line through Sunnyside, Queens, and then through to Manhattan from there.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

MetroNorth New Haven and Harlem lines through Hell’s Gate and then Sunnyside into Penn Station? I did not think there was any capacity at all left in the East River tunnels (4x) between LIRR, NJT, Amtrak, and holding space for all three.
As for when, I agree, the Port Authority is right up there with MTA and NJT when it comes to getting things done. I am still trying to figure our why my increased toll on the GWB goes to pay for cost overruns at the new WTC site. Shouldn’t the private developers working it pay for cost overruns?
As for this topic, we both appear to be in agreement that Penn Station needs to expand. The question is where and if Dolan will play ball or not.

 

[J187Money]

MetroNorth New Haven and Harlem lines through Hell’s Gate and then Sunnyside into Penn Station? I did not think there was any capacity at all left in the East River tunnels (4x) between LIRR, NJT, Amtrak, and holding space for all three.
As for when, I agree, the Port Authority is right up there with MTA and NJT when it comes to getting things done. I am still trying to figure our why my increased toll on the GWB goes to pay for cost overruns at the new WTC site. Shouldn’t the private developers working it pay for cost overruns?
As for this topic, we both appear to be in agreement that Penn Station needs to expand. The question is where and if Dolan will play ball or not.

This is my understanding. The MN trains would follow how the Amtrak trains get into Penn. Otherwise would be a hella-long ride (meaning not worth doing).

 

[kingdobbs]

MetroNorth New Haven and Harlem lines through Hell’s Gate and then Sunnyside into Penn Station? I did not think there was any capacity at all left in the East River tunnels (4x) between LIRR, NJT, Amtrak, and holding space for all three.

Harlem and New Haven would not share the Hell Gate connection in this plan. The infrastructure problem here is that Harlem and New Haven converge on each other near Woodlawn, but only in the same direction at the same time; that is to say, there's no way at current to send a Harlem Line train that is bound for GCT towards New Haven without getting to the terminal first. New Haven's split with the Hell Gate line occurs in New Rochelle, well before New Haven and Harlem lines converge, and they have that same problem where the lines only converge in the same direction.

Harlem line trains would, as far as I can tell, connect up through the "Yankee connection" at Grand Concourse/E 149th Street in the Bronx, follow the Hudson line north to Spuyten Duyvil (where they are going to do a multi-directional convergence; one is easier to build than two; as far as I know they also need to do an upgrade on that trackage anyway), following the Empire Connection along the west side down to Penn.

If part of the East Side Access plan is to redirect Penn bound LIRR trains to Grand Central, then there should be the capacity to make up for those trains from MNR into Penn through the East River Tunnels.

There would also be new stations built to accommodate more commuters, particularly "reverse commuters" who go up to the 'burbs: 2 in Manhattan along the Empire line (one around W 125th, and another near W 62nd Street, by the Trump Place developments), and four in the Bronx along the Hell Gate connection (Co-Op City, Morris Park, Parkchester, and Hunts Point).

 

[huskymedic]

Gotta love the diverse knowledge of the BY!

 

[FAIRTIDES]

Move MSG? Anyone have an idea how that might be done?

Just like the first three. The present building is the fourth. The first two were at Madison Square, where Broadway crosses Fifth in the lower twenties. The third was on the west side, in the theatre district.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

If part of the East Side Access plan is to redirect Penn bound LIRR trains to Grand Central, then there should be the capacity to make up for those trains from MNR into Penn through the East River Tunnels.

I believe that is the key point right there. The plan was to open up more slots at Penn Station by shifting some LIRR trains to Grand Central. The problem is with increased (and very much in demand) Amtrak service plus pressure from NJ politicians to gain more access to Manhattan via Penn Station (not all NJ trains make it to Penn Station, some end in Newark [Raritan line] and some end in Hoboken [Bergen/Port Jervis, Spring Valley & some trains from other lines). The ‘extra’ space afforded by moving some LIRR trains to grand Central beginning in 2019 (fingers crossed) will be absorbed by natural growth from NJ and Amtrak trains. Thus, Penn Station needs more space for MetroNorth trains plus continued growth elsewhere. How can it expand with MSG on top of it & Dolan refusing to compromise?

 

[kingdobbs]

That's definitely not in question: Penn Station can't be a terminal for three commuter services and a hub for Amtrak if it's got half the capacity of Grand Central in terms of trackage, and not if everyone is clamoring for more one-seat access to Manhattan. Penn just doesn't compare (and IMO Grand Central is rather underused, but that owes as much to the fact that it's a terminal rather than a hub).

The simplest conceptual fix is to figure out a way to get Amtrak out of Penn Station entirely; I say conceptual because of course practically speaking that's asking a lot. The perfect fix would be a southern route out of Grand Central and a complete transfer of all southbound Amtrak service there, but as long as we're wishing for things that are never going to happen, I'd like seven ponies.

 

[FDNY99]

The main idea of the East side access or LIRR terminal at GCT was to A give people whonworked on the east side and use the LIRR to commute easier access to the east side AND take people off of the subway (which are way over crowded..how do I know this..I say I am crawling under NYC subway cars to extricate people who are hit by trains or fall onto the tracks and are under trains atvleast 1-2 times per week when I am at work). It was also so that both the east side and west side of Manhattan were accessible to JFK via commuter rail. East side access trains will run through Jamaica Station where you can board the Air Train to JFK. When it is finished you will be able to take Metro North trains into GCT, go down to the LIRR terminal under ground at 48 and Madison and take a train to Jamaica Station..then board the airtrain to JFK...a LOT easier than it is now.

 

[J187Money]

http://issuu.com/forumforurbandesign/docs/nextnewyork_advancecopy_bbdb2c0c20e835

Great view of some of the ideas for NY. Some of them are far fetched but this is how they are thinking about transportation.