Most P-5’s want to leave the NCAA.

[CL82]

Yep...we agree to disagree....in BB...you can't leave out a Villanova or Gonzaga...yet neither make any sense at all in a football first league.

BB will continue on with 350 programs competing for the NC and the P5 will stay with their conferences...

Are you saying no P5 autonomy as well?

 

[Zissou]

Expect P5 autonomy. But they have to be very careful.

What about Notre Dame? BYU? Boise State? Service academies?

Do you have to be P5 to be in this break away entity? Will the entity be tax exempt? Will it be anti trust exempt?

Will they allow a handful of independents that want to spend at the highest rate?

Will there be a requirement, as current, that P5 conferences participate as full conferences for a min number of sports, and you must play in conference for the sports offered? Even if football is in one entity and basketball is in another entity?

there will be a lot of needles to thread.

 

[UConnJim]

Disagree since the NCAA funds it's entire operations from March Madness. If the P5 (plus a few more, say the American, BYU, Boise St. and the BE) broke off and ran it's own tournament all the net cash goes to the P5's benefit. It's an easy money grab.

No, it’s not an easy money grab. You need to look at the revenues and expenses of the NCAA. At best, the P5 could milk an extra $100 mill. per year if revenues and expenses remained the same. Remember, the P5 is already getting most of the NCAA basketball tournament distributions. Why risk the basketball revenue model for limited gain?

 

[CL82]

No, it’s not an easy money grab. You need to look at the revenues and expenses of the NCAA. At best, the P5 could milk an extra $100 mill. per year if revenues and expenses remained the same. Remember, the P5 is already getting most of the NCAA basketball tournament distributions. Why risk the basketball revenue model for limited gain?

No you absolutely don’t have to look at the net revenue of the NCAA. It is a bloated organization. What you have to look at is the gross revenue. That is the money grab. Then you have to associate what would be the cost necessary to provide agreed services only to the schools that are participating. It is money there for the taking.

 

[Zissou]

No you absolutely don’t have to look at the net revenue of the NCAA. It is a bloated organization. What you have to look at is the gross revenue. That is the money grab. Then you have to associate what would be the cost necessary to provide agreed services only to the schools that are participating. It is money there for the taking.

One benefit of a split would be P5 football funding its own administration instead of basketball revenue funding P5 football administration.

 

[billybud]

Are you saying no P5 autonomy as well?

P5 IS already autonomous....P5 is a shortcut name...but the NCAA designates them as "autonomy conferences"....In terms of football, they are autonomous. They can make their own rules.

The conferences that comprise the Power Five are designated by the NCAA, individually by name, as "autonomy conferences". Section 5.3.2.1 of the NCAA Constitution grants such conferences autonomy "to permit the use of resources to advance the legitimate educational or athletics-related needs of student-athletes and for legislative changes that will otherwise enhance student-athlete well-being". Eleven areas of autonomy are listed, including promotional activities unrelated to athletics participation, pre-enrollment expenses and support, and financial aid.[3]



I think that football, already autonomous, is as far as the P5's want to go....that's all.

 

[CL82]

P5 IS already autonomous....P5 is a shortcut name...but the NCAA designates them as "autonomy conferences"....In terms of football, they are autonomous. They can make their own rules.

The conferences that comprise the Power Five are designated by the NCAA, individually by name, as "autonomy conferences". Section 5.3.2.1 of the NCAA Constitution grants such conferences autonomy "to permit the use of resources to advance the legitimate educational or athletics-related needs of student-athletes and for legislative changes that will otherwise enhance student-athlete well-being". Eleven areas of autonomy are listed, including promotional activities unrelated to athletics participation, pre-enrollment expenses and support, and financial aid.[3]



I think that football, already autonomous, is as far as the P5's want to go....that's all.

Yep, I meant complete separation, which you answered above. I'm not so sure. The P5 occasionally dangles leaving as a negotiating tool. I think it will happen in some form eventually. The NCAA has grown too bloated, arbitrary and inefficient. We'll see.

 

[billybud]

For the "football conferences", having the NCAA run basketball, baseball, softball, volleyball, soccer, et al...while funding it from basketball, may not seem like a bad deal.

Leaves football and its billions to the P5 and leaves the work of running basketball along with the non revenue sports to someone else...and the NCAA funding comes from basketball, leaving football money alone.

 

[SU1968]

not that easy. I think the audience would be alienated and smaller. There is also a bigger anti-trust risk.

Football is a little different as it has slowly evolved to P5 and everyone else. Shutting out a contending UCF confirmed the CFP is for the P5.

Zissou, how do you figure that there would be a bigger anti-trust risk? March Madness and the NIT, both owned by the NCAA, are the ultimate example of a monopoly. A separate tournament reduces the monopoly.

 

[Zissou]

Zissou, how do you figure that there would be a bigger anti-trust risk? March Madness and the NIT, both owned by the NCAA, are the ultimate example of a monopoly. A separate tournament reduces the monopoly.

March Madness is pretty inclusive. Basically every team in D1 is eligible. It's also a very open process to meet D1 requirements and move up from a lower division.

The P5 breaking away to a separate entity is exclusive. It creates a category of schools that are likely to complain. They aren't eligible for the opportunity or the money. In today's system you can say that each conference is free to chase it's value, and there are winners and losers in that valuation but they can chase it. Technically the CFP is open (if not in practice). Excluding such a large group could be viewed as anti-competitive. The NCAA does not have an anti-trust exemption although it has been debated.

Also, the NCAA is a 501(c)(3) tax exempt educational institution. A break away entity solely for big money football seems less likely to justifiably hold that exemption, but I don't know the odds of them getting the exemption or being denied. The NCAA at least is somewhat grandfathered to their status.

 

[Guapo]

Lol this is not going to happen.

 

[CL82]

March Madness is pretty inclusive. Basically every team in D1 is eligible. It's also a very open process to meet D1 requirements and move up from a lower division.

The P5 breaking away to a separate entity is exclusive. It creates a category of schools that are likely to complain. They aren't eligible for the opportunity or the money. In today's system you can say that each conference is free to chase it's value, and there are winners and losers in that valuation but they can chase it. Technically the CFP is open (if not in practice). Excluding such a large group could be viewed as anti-competitive. The NCAA does not have an anti-trust exemption although it has been debated.

Also, the NCAA is a 501(c)(3) tax exempt educational institution. A break away entity solely for big money football seems less likely to justifiably hold that exemption, but I don't know the odds of them getting the exemption or being denied. The NCAA at least is somewhat grandfathered to their status.

Meh, you set up certain institutional qualification (perhaps budget and success based) and invite schools who meet that criteria. The NCAA would still exist and is free to compete. One could argue that is more competition, not less.

 

[Zissou]

Meh, you set up certain institutional qualification (perhaps budget and success based) and invite schools who meet that criteria. The NCAA would still exist and is free to compete. One could argue that is more competition, not less.

One could argue almost anything.

My opinion is a new entity P5 would be viewed at higher risk for uncompetitive behavior. Would UConn be able to join this entity?

 

[CL82]

One could argue almost anything. My opinion is a new entity P5 would be viewed at higher risk for uncompetitive behavior.

True but it is helpful to have some rational basis for one's argument. Do you have any basis why having two college athletic confederations would be view as less competitive than only having one?

Would UConn be able to join this entity?

Depends on the criteria, right? Personally, in order to make the numbers work you probably need to invite the football independents (though really ND, BYU and Boise St, may be the ones you'd actually want), the American, and the Big East. Tough to have a meaningful NCAA basketball with a pool that is less than that. THe Big East has earned a berth based upon performance. So, yeah, UConn is likely in, if it were to happen.

 

[Zissou]

The survey indicated an interest for a separate football P5 entity ut keeping basketball status quo. So I don’t think it would affect the Big East. I would see the NCAA changing their rules so P5 football is exempt from NCAA conference requirements.

it’s only a survey though, so anything could still happen with the future affiliation construction.

I believe a new P5 entity would be exclusive and would not include an invite for UConn. For those excluded their could be an anti-competitive practices claim.

 

[freescooter]

Don’t overplay the importance of the NCAA tourney. For 3 reasons
1 these are the teams that are, for the most part, the Final Fours. Oh, you get the oddball Villanova or Gonzaga, but really there only 1 non-football team has won the title since 2000. In 20 years the P5 are 18-2 or 17-3 depending how you consider UConn in 2014

2 if you could get to 90-100 teams you could do a 64 team event. And it wouldn’t include the low majors and mid-majors who have almost no chance anyway. Or you do 48 and give the the top teams a bye If you think 64 is too generous. Gotta say Duke-USC is going to outdraw Seton Hall-Central Connecticut every day of the week. On what planet does CBS or ZESPN choose the NCAA tournament over the P5 championship?

3. The football schools just make too much money for this to not work. And now the don’t share revenues with the small leagues so they could even take a bit less and still come out ahead. They won’t have to but they could for a few years to establish their championship as the real national championship. Remember the lowest paid P5 league makes At least 5 times what the Big East does in tv revenues. The disparity is huge.

 

[Zissou]

Don’t overplay the importance of the NCAA tourney. For 3 reasons
1 these are the teams that are, for the most part, the Final Fours. Oh, you get the oddball Villanova or Gonzaga, but really there only 1 non-football team has won the title since 2000. In 20 years the P5 are 18-2 or 17-3 depending how you consider UConn in 2014

uConn 3x
Nova 2x
Ville
Cuse

 

[freescooter]

uConn 3x
Nova 2x
Ville
Cuse

Huh? Syracuse, Louisville and UConn all play FBS football. Even UConn 1999 was in the process of upgrading. That’s my point. Exactly 1 school without 1a football has won the NCAA basketball title in the last 20 years. Maybe in the last 30. I was too lazy to go back that far. So yeah, maybe Villanova would be missed in a P5 break away. But not that much. Oh and UConn x3 plus UL and Syracuse are why the Big East is the legacy league that it is. Not sure you noticed but Syracuse and UL are not in the league any longer.

 

[Zissou]

Huh? Syracuse, Louisville and UConn all play FBS football. Even UConn 1999 was in the process of upgrading. That’s my point. Exactly 1 school without 1a football has won the NCAA basketball title in the last 20 years. Maybe in the last 30. I was too lazy to go back that far. So yeah, maybe Villanova would be missed in a P5 break away. But not that much. Oh and UConn x3 plus UL and Syracuse are why the Big East is the legacy league that it is. Not sure you noticed but Syracuse and UL are not in the league any longer.

You said “P5”

 

[billybud]

He also clarified his meaning....and it stands...FBS football and winning basketball national championships show a very high correlation. And not having a FBS football program has been a precursor for not winning the NC.

One school without FBS football in the last 20 years has won the BB national championship....And I do hand it to Nova for that achievement as a premier basketball program...cue up "I am the only one"..."I'm the only one baby...I'm the only one.

 

[Zissou]

He also clarified his meaning....and it stands...FBS football and winning basketball national championships show a very high correlation. And not having a FBS football program has been a precursor for not winning the NC.

One school without FBS football in the last 20 years has won the BB national championship....And I do hand it to Nova for that achievement as a premier basketball program...cue up "I am the only one"..."I'm the only one baby...I'm the only one.

“In 20 years the P5 are 18-2 or 17-3 depending how you consider UConn in 2014“

It’s just a false statement.

It’s a pattern of making exaggerations and fake statements to denigrate UConn’s decision to move to the Big East. The Big East was UConn’s best available option. It’s a top 3 basketball conference and only better with UConn back. If the Big Ten had a spot for UConn the money and the football of course makes it the no-brainer preference. Rutgers took that spot. No invite was on the horizon. Make the best of it.

 

[freescooter]

As a UConn fan this is the nightmare scenario. But there is a chance we get included if only to get the numbers up. If I’m any other Big East program this kind of talk has to scare the heck out of me because there is virtually no chance of getting included in a P5 association. Now some won’t really care that much. Georgetown seems to be taking an Ivy League view in recent years for example. But Villanova should be petrified

 

[Zissou]

As a UConn fan this is the nightmare scenario. But there is a chance we get included if only to get the numbers up. If I’m any other Big East program this kind of talk has to scare the heck out of me because there is virtually no chance of getting included in a P5 association. Now some won’t really care that much. Georgetown seems to be taking an Ivy League view in recent years for example. But Villanova should be petrified

Not scared

 

[freescooter]

“In 20 years the P5 are 18-2 or 17-3 depending how you consider UConn in 2014“

It’s just a false statement.

It’s a pattern of making exaggerations and fake statements to denigrate UConn’s decision to move to the Big East. The Big East was UConn’s best available option. It’s a top 3 basketball conference and only better with UConn back. If the Big Ten had a spot for UConn the money and the football of course makes it the no-brainer preference. Rutgers took that spot. No invite was on the horizon. Make the best of it.

The NCAA championship has been won 18 times by schools that play major college football and twice by a school that doesn’t. Same school both times. If you look at final fours it is just as lopsided. You had a couple of Cinderella stories, George Mason and Loyola and Arguably Virginia Commonwealth, Villanova a couple of times and Gonzaga and Butler a couple of times. There might be one or two more I’m forgetting, but almost every year the final four has all schools that play football too. Those schools have bigger athletics Budgets, better families can pay more for everything from meals to coaches to equipment To travel.

 

[billybud]

Zissou....

"One school without FBS football in the last 20 years has won the BB national championship...."

Is also a true statement....Take away Nova...and there is nobody else