More injuries in WBB (merged) | Page 2 | The Boneyard

More injuries in WBB (merged)

Charliebball said:
Sad to say but one of the questions coaches are going to have to take more seriously is whether it's too much of a risk to recruit talented players with a history of serious injuries in high school........look at UConn........ Azzi, Caroline, and Aubrey all had season-ending injuries requiring surgery before they even became Huskies.......... let's face it, some players are simply injury magnets and whether it's past physical problems or simply bad luck, everybody knows players like this.........Paige and Jana are exceptions to this concept, but I think it's worth considering to limit the risk.......I have no idea whether players have to complete physicals before they sign their commitment papers the way free agents have to in the pros but if I was a head coach, I'd sure like to go over medical histories and limit the chances of signing a player that can't help my team for four years before I sign them........ it's a cold-blooded concept that I don't like but at some point, UConn needs to get off of this injury rollercoaster that has destroyed their chances at winning more national championships.......and the good news is that talented players with significant injury histories will still have plenty of teams willing to take a chance on them which should spread the wealth in recruiting....
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Gabby was also injured in HS, but ended up a 2x AA for the Huskies.
 
oldude said:
Gabby was also injured in HS, but ended up a 2x AA for the Huskies.
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absolutely but they made the decision it was worth the risk.....maybe limiting the total numbers of players with significant past injuries is the way to go
oldude said:
Gabby was also injured in HS, but ended up a 2x AA for the Huskies.
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very true......sometimes the risks are worth taking for a unicorn like that...... the number of players with significant prior injuries should be limited but not ended.....having three or more on a team at the same time seems pretty risky as it turns out......do you know how deeply the schools get into the medical histories of the players they are recruiting?..........in my daughter's case, the fact that she had minor knee surgery and multiple concussions was noted but not brought up when she was being recruited but those were mostly D3 schools....
 
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Charliebball said:
Sad to say but one of the questions coaches are going to have to take more seriously is whether it's too much of a risk to recruit talented players with a history of serious injuries in high school........look at UConn........ Azzi, Caroline, and Aubrey all had season-ending injuries requiring surgery before they even became Huskies.......... let's face it, some players are simply injury magnets and whether it's past physical problems or simply bad luck, everybody knows players like this.........Paige and Jana are exceptions to this concept, but I think it's worth considering to limit the risk.......I have no idea whether players have to complete physicals before they sign their commitment papers the way free agents have to in the pros but if I was a head coach, I'd sure like to go over medical histories and limit the chances of signing a player that can't help my team for four years before I sign them........ it's a cold-blooded concept that I don't like but at some point, UConn needs to get off of this injury rollercoaster that has destroyed their chances at winning more national championships.......and the good news is that talented players with significant injury histories will still have plenty of teams willing to take a chance on them which should spread the wealth in recruiting....
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If I recall correctly, all of the Huskies you mentioned were injured AFTER they committed to UConn. So in that case, are you recommending Geno pull a scholarship from someone who committed to UConn? By that point anyway, the way recruiting works, all the good players are typically spoken for, or it's too late to get into the game.

Look, injuries suck. It's terrible and hopefully somewhere down the line there will be a solution, especially for ACL's. But it's part of a team's journey and not recruiting a talented player because they had a major injury seems like a serious misstep.

Another way to look at it - not all players are contributors for all four years, for a variety of reasons. I would say if a player is able to contribute at least one year in a meaningful way (either on the court or off the court), then that player should be recruitable.
 
Sakibomb25 said:
If I recall correctly, all of the Huskies you mentioned were injured AFTER they committed to UConn. So in that case, are you recommending Geno pull a scholarship from someone who committed to UConn? By that point anyway, the way recruiting works, all the good players are typically spoken for, or it's too late to get into the game.

Look, injuries suck. It's terrible and hopefully somewhere down the line there will be a solution, especially for ACL's. But it's part of a team's journey and not recruiting a talented player because they had a major injury seems like a serious misstep.

Another way to look at it - not all players are contributors for all four years, for a variety of reasons. I would say if a player is able to contribute at least one year in a meaningful way (either on the court or off the court), then that player should be recruitable.
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really sad to see so much talent sitting out so much of their collegiate careers......Azzi injured her knees several times during her high school career.....I'm pretty sure her initial knee surgery took place before she had committed to UConn........not sure about the second one.......Aubrey hurt her knee before she committed to UConn before her sophomore year in high school and Ducharme tore her ACL in the summer after eighth grade and tore her labrum in the summer after her freshman year in high school both before committing to UConn.........she then had hip surgery after her freshman year at UConn......
 
Charliebball said:
really sad to see so much talent sitting out so much of their collegiate careers......Azzi injured her knees several times during her high school career.....I'm pretty sure her initial knee surgery took place before she had committed to UConn........not sure about the second one.......Aubrey hurt her knee before she committed to UConn before her sophomore year in high school and Ducharme tore her ACL in the summer after eighth grade and tore her labrum in the summer after her freshman year in high school both before committing to UConn.........she then had hip surgery after her freshman year at UConn......
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You are also saying the only value they bring is basketball. What about them as people? You don't think Geno is recruiting them as people as well, and not what they can do for him on the basketball court? I am pretty sure his coaching staff does not regret recruiting Azzi, Caroline or Aubrey, despite their unfortunate injury history.
 
Maybe one way of reducing the injuries is change the way the games are being played. There is too much physical contact allowed, some teams are overly physical and will keep on doing it until the NCAA start enforcing the overt physical play and the refs start calling fouls.
 
Sakibomb25 said:
You are also saying the only value they bring is basketball. What about them as people? You don't think Geno is recruiting them as people as well, and not what they can do for him on the basketball court? I am pretty sure his coaching staff does not regret recruiting Azzi, Caroline or Aubrey, despite their unfortunate injury history.
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Maybe, maybe not......I'd say Geno pays more attention to a recruit's behavior on and off the court than any other coach in WBB...........that said, I'd suggest he or any other coach might very well look for another player with equally great qualities and basketball talent instead if he/she believed that numerous recruits would miss multiple years of playing time during their careers during the same seasons.........I believe most highly successful coaches care very much for their student-athletes and desire great team chemistry but their bottom line is developing the best basketball team they can recruit in order to win a national championship...........I hate to be cynical but look at the numbers of players in the transfer portal these days.......the kind of blind loyalty we remember between player and coach is rapidly disappearing......
 
MSGRET said:
Maybe one way of reducing the injuries is change the way the games are being played. There is too much physical contact allowed, some teams are overly physical and will keep on doing it until the NCAA start enforcing the overt physical play and the refs start calling fouls.
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I’d be surprised if we didn’t see some adjustment to the refs protocols before next season. It might not have any effect. But it’s hard to imagine the ncaa not trying to change something to address the injuries.
 
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MSGRET said:
Maybe one way of reducing the injuries is change the way the games are being played. There is too much physical contact allowed, some teams are overly physical and will keep on doing it until the NCAA start enforcing the overt physical play and the refs start calling fouls.
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I'd be curious to see a chart of contact vs non contact injuries. I could be wrong, but I think a lott of these injuries are non contact. School need to start looking at schools like SC with fewer injuries and see what they do differently.
Catapult is a great place to start. Now do you have staff that know how to interpret the data it generates? How intense are your practices compared to schools that don't have as many injuries? What does your players' nutrition look like?
IMO, the wear and tear of practice is a much bigger problem than games. Games makeup such a small part of the athlete's time on the court each week.
 
bballnut90 said:
I don't think they have. SC fans--has your team had any major injuries in the past decade aside from Coates missing the 2016-17 tournament and Raven Johnson's ACL in 2021-22? Seems like Dawn and co. have been able to keep their core players healthy during their string of dominance in the SEC. Props to their strength and conditioning team.
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The ‘17-18 season, coming off their first NC, found the Gamecocks playing with a very depleted backcourt rotation. It was basically Ty Harris or BUST all year. The biggest loss was Bianca Cuevas-Moore missing the whole season due to a knee injury suffered in preseason. Lindsay Spann, the transfer CG from Penn St., who missed the previous season with a knee injury, was playing very well for SC shooting 45% from the arc in her 15 games played, but in early February, she too went down injuring her opposite knee, effectively ending her collegiate career.

That was the season the Gamecocks tried to play it cute, waiting to get a waiver at mid season for Te’a Cooper but the NCAA didn’t bite. Ironically, PG Araion Bradshaw, who played sparingly in ‘16-17 as a freshman, then transferred to Dayton where she had a productive career as a 4 yr starter for the Flyers, would likely have played quite a bit that season if she had stayed in Columbia. Throw in the losses of Coates to graduation and Gray and Davis leaving early for the draft, I’ll always be amazed at the way A’ja Wilson put that team on her back and got them to the Elite 8.
 
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Ladeeeeda said:
I'd be curious to see a chart of contact vs non contact injuries. I could be wrong, but I think a lott of these injuries are non contact. School need to start looking at schools like SC with fewer injuries and see what they do differently.
Catapult is a great place to start. Now do you have staff that know how to interpret the data it generates? How intense are your practices compared to schools that don't have as many injuries? What does your players' nutrition look like?
IMO, the wear and tear of practice is a much bigger problem than games. Games makeup such a small part of the athlete's time on the court each week.
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Interesting thought. The moment of injury may not be a result of contact, at least not contact in a game. If the “wear and tear of practice” is part of the problem, some of these seeming non-contact injuries may be connected to contact in practice. But maybe direct contact in practice is not a factor at all.

If I focus on “lower leg injuries” I’m reminded of the sequence of injuries Paige endured. She’d been plagued by ankle problems in high school but managed to play through them. Finally, after her freshman year at UConn, she had surgery to correct the lingering ankle problem. She returned stronger than ever and seemed ready to have an even more dominant season… and promptly blew out her knee in the ND game. She endured plenty of hard contact in that game, including a heavy blow to the head, but none of it on her knee.

Seen as an isolated event, her knee gave out in a way apparently unconnected to what she was doing at that moment. Many ACL injuries appear this way, though Paige’s tibial-plateau fracture may have been a bit different. Cue another surgery and a perhaps too-early return to play that March and a stunning march to the NC game led by a rickety star. Cue a second even more devastating knee injury the following summer, also presumably non-contact and suffered outside of game competition.

In an interview during her last rehab stint, Paige talked about how much more thoroughly she approached every aspect of her athletic life including changes to nutrition and gait analysis. She mentioned that her therapists told her that injuries like hers often occur in a familiar pattern — ankle, knee, knee. I was reminded of something my dad said after he had knee replacement surgery: “Now my hip hurts.” He was a doctor and said this is a recognized pattern: when you change any one thing it affects the architecture of the other joints.

I’ve been watching the way Paige positions her feet in preparation for a shot to see if I can notice anything different. The TV coverage isn’t really good enough for an amateur like me to see anything definitive. But I still wonder. We often hear about kids like Paige and Azzi and even Ash that they position their feet early to get off a shot quickly. It’s practically a signature move. Are they putting more torque on their joints by doing this? And are there other ways in which they might be stressing their knees in order to gain some other tiny advantage?

I’m thinking too hard about this and it’s giving me a headache.
 
Ladeeeeda said:
I'd be curious to see a chart of contact vs non contact injuries. I could be wrong, but I think a lott of these injuries are non contact. School need to start looking at schools like SC with fewer injuries and see what they do differently.
Catapult is a great place to start. Now do you have staff that know how to interpret the data it generates? How intense are your practices compared to schools that don't have as many injuries? What does your players' nutrition look like?
IMO, the wear and tear of practice is a much bigger problem than games. Games makeup such a small part of the athlete's time on the court each week.
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It could also be caused by the initial contact, but occur later in the game. You didn't have this many injuries until the last couple of years and I believe that if they got the blatant contact and physical play under control many of these contact and non-contact injuries would subside. Basketball is SUPPOSED TO BE a non-contact sport, lets get back to that type of game.
 
And yet another WBB program looking for walk-ons
 
Bone Dog said:
Interesting thought. The moment of injury may not be a result of contact, at least not contact in a game. If the “wear and tear of practice” is part of the problem, some of these seeming non-contact injuries may be connected to contact in practice. But maybe direct contact in practice is not a factor at all.

If I focus on “lower leg injuries” I’m reminded of the sequence of injuries Paige endured. She’d been plagued by ankle problems in high school but managed to play through them. Finally, after her freshman year at UConn, she had surgery to correct the lingering ankle problem. She returned stronger than ever and seemed ready to have an even more dominant season… and promptly blew out her knee in the ND game. She endured plenty of hard contact in that game, including a heavy blow to the head, but none of it on her knee.

Seen as an isolated event, her knee gave out in a way apparently unconnected to what she was doing at that moment. Many ACL injuries appear this way, though Paige’s tibial-plateau fracture may have been a bit different. Cue another surgery and a perhaps too-early return to play that March and a stunning march to the NC game led by a rickety star. Cue a second even more devastating knee injury the following summer, also presumably non-contact and suffered outside of game competition.

In an interview during her last rehab stint, Paige talked about how much more thoroughly she approached every aspect of her athletic life including changes to nutrition and gait analysis. She mentioned that her therapists told her that injuries like hers often occur in a familiar pattern — ankle, knee, knee. I was reminded of something my dad said after he had knee replacement surgery: “Now my hip hurts.” He was a doctor and said this is a recognized pattern: when you change any one thing it affects the architecture of the other joints.

I’ve been watching the way Paige positions her feet in preparation for a shot to see if I can notice anything different. The TV coverage isn’t really good enough for an amateur like me to see anything definitive. But I still wonder. We often hear about kids like Paige and Azzi and even Ash that they position their feet early to get off a shot quickly. It’s practically a signature move. Are they putting more torque on their joints by doing this? And are there other ways in which they might be stressing their knees in order to gain some other tiny advantage?

I’m thinking too hard about this and it’s giving me a headache.
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While fans don't need these headaches, I think performance teams need to be thinking this hard about each athlete they work with, while using science to draw conclusions and inform decision-making.
 
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Ladeeeeda said:
While fans don't need these headaches, I think performance teams need to be thinking this hard about each athlete they work with, while using science to draw conclusions and inform decision-making.
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When I saw your name posted in this thread, my first thought was :eek::eek:

Can't be scaring me like that

source.gif
 
MSGRET said:
Maybe one way of reducing the injuries is change the way the games are being played. There is too much physical contact allowed, some teams are overly physical and will keep on doing it until the NCAA start enforcing the overt physical play and the refs start calling fouls.
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Although, interestingly, it seems that most ACL injuries are of the dreaded “non contact” type. In fact, when someone goes down without contact and grabs their knee - my 1st thought is ACL.
 
The majority (68.2%) of ACL injury occurred during the 2 steps phase (only two steps can proceed after ball retention in basketball, so we defined them as two steps) in the offense action, and most notably during the first step (80.0%). 73.3% of players who were injured during the 2 steps phase got contact to an area other than the knee (Indirect contact) at the IF-1, with 81.8% of contact being located in the upper body contralateral to the respective knee injury. The probability of players with ACL injuries during the 2 steps at the IF-1 who got Indirect contact was statistically significantly greater than those who got no contact with other players (p = 0.042).
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The above is from a recent study done and relates to NBA athletes, but I would assume it could apply to others playing basketball as well. Analyses of actions which cause anterior cruciate ligament injuries in the national basketball association players

So it would seem that driving to the basket is the leading "cause" of these injuries at least in terms of NBA which is obviously a very physical level of play. From other things I've read certain training exercises can help but don't seem to be as effective in terms of basketball but this is an older study (2014) Effects of knee injury primary prevention programs on anterior cruciate ligament injury rates in female athletes in different sports
 
At one point last year I remember hearing that Iowa had started the same 5 players for more than a year. Other than Clark, most of their players weren’t top recruits. Might that have something to do with their lack of major injuries?
 
Bone Dog said:
Interesting thought. The moment of injury may not be a result of contact, at least not contact in a game. If the “wear and tear of practice” is part of the problem, some of these seeming non-contact injuries may be connected to contact in practice. But maybe direct contact in practice is not a factor at all.

If I focus on “lower leg injuries” I’m reminded of the sequence of injuries Paige endured. She’d been plagued by ankle problems in high school but managed to play through them. Finally, after her freshman year at UConn, she had surgery to correct the lingering ankle problem. She returned stronger than ever and seemed ready to have an even more dominant season… and promptly blew out her knee in the ND game. She endured plenty of hard contact in that game, including a heavy blow to the head, but none of it on her knee.

Seen as an isolated event, her knee gave out in a way apparently unconnected to what she was doing at that moment. Many ACL injuries appear this way, though Paige’s tibial-plateau fracture may have been a bit different. Cue another surgery and a perhaps too-early return to play that March and a stunning march to the NC game led by a rickety star. Cue a second even more devastating knee injury the following summer, also presumably non-contact and suffered outside of game competition.

In an interview during her last rehab stint, Paige talked about how much more thoroughly she approached every aspect of her athletic life including changes to nutrition and gait analysis. She mentioned that her therapists told her that injuries like hers often occur in a familiar pattern — ankle, knee, knee. I was reminded of something my dad said after he had knee replacement surgery: “Now my hip hurts.” He was a doctor and said this is a recognized pattern: when you change any one thing it affects the architecture of the other joints.

I’ve been watching the way Paige positions her feet in preparation for a shot to see if I can notice anything different. The TV coverage isn’t really good enough for an amateur like me to see anything definitive. But I still wonder. We often hear about kids like Paige and Azzi and even Ash that they position their feet early to get off a shot quickly. It’s practically a signature move. Are they putting more torque on their joints by doing this? And are there other ways in which they might be stressing their knees in order to gain some other tiny advantage?

I’m thinking too hard about this and it’s giving me a headache.
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Everyone all ways says Paige’s knee injury vs Notre dame was non contact but I’ve watched that moment over again at least a dozen times. Moments before she is dribbling the ball down the court when she got hurt, her knee was crushed under a pile of bodies on the ground. I’ve always thought the injury occurred in that moment and became as issue as she as dribbling the ball alone in the backcourt.
 
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aaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 
hoopsnloops32 said:
I don't think so. I think a couple of players have missed a game or two for rest or mild injuries like ankle sprains but they've been injury free, along with Iowa. Iowa did seem to have a minor injury issue with Hannah Stuelke but she only had to miss 4 games. Stanford lost Brink for a couple of games but has been injury free otherwise. That's 3 of your top 4 teams and I don't think thats a coincidence.
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Three years ago, I was expecting that the national champion would be the team that managed Covid the best. It may be that the winner this year avoided major injuries the best.
 
Charliebball said:
really sad to see so much talent sitting out so much of their collegiate careers......Azzi injured her knees several times during her high school career.....I'm pretty sure her initial knee surgery took place before she had committed to UConn........not sure about the second one.......Aubrey hurt her knee before she committed to UConn before her sophomore year in high school and Ducharme tore her ACL in the summer after eighth grade and tore her labrum in the summer after her freshman year in high school both before committing to UConn.........she then had hip surgery after her freshman year at UConn......
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I think Azzi had only 1 serious knee injury in high school. She tore her ACL (and possibly more) at USA Basketball and required surgery after her sophomore season, when she won some NPOY awards. I think she played a little at the end of her junior season, which seems like a short recovery time. Her senior season was basically eliminated by the pandemic. I think SJC played 2 exhibition games, or something like that. Her injury during her freshman year at UConn was to the foot or ankle, I believe. As far as I know, that was a new injury.

In terms of predicting a recruit's vulnerability, her mother's bad knees were highly publicized. In that context, I'm not surprised that Azzi has had ACL problems. But as I've written before, Azzi Fudd would be a huge asset to UConn (or any school) because of the type of person she is, even if she never played basketball.
 
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