Mike DiMauro: The women's game, officially, has a problem | The Boneyard

Mike DiMauro: The women's game, officially, has a problem

Status
Not open for further replies.

pap49cba

The Supreme Linkster
Joined
Aug 31, 2011
Messages
8,082
Reaction Score
10,136
Jenkins: "Let's face it: In the women's Final Four, you don't know what's legal from one possession to another."

Jenkins: "You see missed calls and mistakes by men's NCAA refs. What you don't see is rugby on one end and badminton on the other. That's the women."

Jenkins: "Doris Burke and ESPN need to quit bailing out the atrocious officials."

LINK
 

pinotbear

Silly Ol' Bear
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
3,781
Reaction Score
8,182
Normally, I'm not a Jenkins fan, but, geez, I think she's dead-on here. Pithy, too.
 

vtcwbuff

Civil War Buff
Joined
Sep 1, 2011
Messages
4,383
Reaction Score
10,677
The ref problem has been around for years. Nothing will change until bad refs and their supervisors (is it time for Jacobs to go?) are held accountable and good refs are better compensated.
 

Wbbfan1

And That’s The Way It Is
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
9,163
Reaction Score
17,437
It will change when there's a change to who gets the Premiere Ref Assignments. They seem to be the same refs at all the big games.

I also have to wonder how efficient the refs can be when they ref a game in Durham, the next night in Texas, then two nights later in California or CT. The constant travel has to get old and tiring. With how the airlines have setup hubs, travel time has to be 8 or more hours to get between assignments and sometimes there is not a day between games.
 
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
22,379
Reaction Score
54,920
It will change when there's a change to who gets the Premiere Ref Assignments. They seem to be the same refs at all the big games.

I think that's because they really are the best of the bunch. Sad, but true.

It always comes back to money. If they pay them more, they will get higher quality refs.

And no, this is nothing new.

I still remember an NCAA game ~15 years between Alabama and UCLA. The Bama inbounder ran the baseline (which she wasnt allowed to do), and the clock started several seconds late, giving them just enough time to hit the winning shot at the buzzer. The officials immediately left the floor, not reviewing the tape. Imagine your college career ending on that fiasco.
 

EricLA

Cronus
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
15,125
Reaction Score
82,794
great article on a big problem. it's too bad...
 

UConnCat

Wise Woman
Joined
Aug 23, 2011
Messages
13,929
Reaction Score
87,312
I've heard Jay Bilas comment that he believes MCBB is too physical and is more physical than the NBA. He has suggested that MCBB officials watch the NBA and the freedom of movement that is encouraged in the NBA. Maybe WCBB (and WNBA) officials would benefit from watching the NBA as well.
 
Joined
Sep 2, 2011
Messages
1,694
Reaction Score
1,378
WCBB and the WNBA need to really upgrade their refs ASAP.......The game is too fast for most of these refs and the make calls when they cannot see the entire play.......Geno has been screaming about this for years.....
 

Icebear

Andlig Ledare
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
18,784
Reaction Score
19,227
So it wasn't just members of the Boneyard who saw the problem because of bias nor is it the Boneyard who are the only ones who see it happening again and again. Jenkins defined the problem exactly correctly that too often the game is not officiated the same at both ends of the court. I am, also, very glad that Jenkins called out Doris Burke and ESPN. Doris's coverage including the uneveness of the fouls was ridiculous.

We were concerned about that going into the game and the officiating did nothing to alleviate the concerns.
 
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
22,379
Reaction Score
54,920
So it wasn't just members of the Boneyard who saw the problem because of bias nor is it the Boneyard who are the only ones who see it happening again and again. Jenkins defined the problem exactly correctly that too often the game is not officiated the same at both ends of the court. I am, also, very glad that Jenkins called out Doris Burke and ESPN. Doris's coverage including the uneveness of the fouls was ridiculous.

We were concerned about that going into the game and the officiating did nothing to alleviate the concerns.

Just because officiating is bad doesn't mean it negatively affects only one team, or that it changes the outcome.
 
Joined
Sep 6, 2011
Messages
2,522
Reaction Score
6,275
Part of the problem is the officials in both the mens and womens game end up out of position too often. You have young men and women at the peak of conditioning in prime years of their life running up and down the floor. Many of the refs are 2 to 3 times the age of the players and they're trying to officiate such a fast paced game. Baseball and Football have more officials in a slower paced game and not as much continual movement and they have problems making correct calls. In my opinion they need 2 more refs to manage the game 3 to run the floor and 1 at each baseline and rotate positions every 8 minutes.
 

cohenzone

Old Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
19,120
Reaction Score
23,322
There are so many aspects to the problem, and it is a problem. The first problem is that the refs should call the fouls that the rules say are fouls. I don't buy the "you can't call 'em all" garbage because if they did call them all, I guarantee, there would be less fouling. A hand check., if meant to be a foul, should be a foul all the time. If not, get rid of the prohibition. I detest games that become foul shooting contests, but one reason some are and some aren't is even if the 2 games are pretty much the same in physicality is because of the game to game arbitrariness of the officials. But if a game has to be a foul shooting contest because fouls are actually being committed, call the fouls and let the game be decided by the walk-ons. The coaching would catch up with the problem pretty fast.

The next, and probably bigger problem, is the quality of the refs. It is no coincidence in either the men or the women's games that we see the same refs over and over again in nationally televised games. They are considered to be the best, ( and that can be a pretty scary thought.) Forgetting which refs become NBA or WNBA refs and looking just at the college game, it seems likely that using 3 refs instead of the old 2 ref system would have the effect of bringing in more "weak" refs in order to have enough refs available for all the games being played on a typical day across the country. Granted that in general the players at DI and especially the better D1 programs are generally bigger and faster than at lower levels and consequently maybe a little more difficult to officiate, I wonder how bad the officiating is at D2 and D3 levels if we think we get bad refs. What say the people here who might go to some of those lower division games?

Also, the refs we see all the time are on a brutal schedule, and lots of them are much older than the kids they have to keep up with. Fatigue may be a factor.

Personally, I don't think refs consciously favor this team or that, but I do think they are affected by reputations and tend to look for certain things in some settings when they should not be seeing either uniforms or players, only plays.
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
60
Reaction Score
40
So it wasn't just members of the Boneyard who saw the problem because of bias nor is it the Boneyard who are the only ones who see it happening again and again. Jenkins defined the problem exactly correctly that too often the game is not officiated the same at both ends of the court. I am, also, very glad that Jenkins called out Doris Burke and ESPN. Doris's coverage including the uneveness of the fouls was ridiculous.

We were concerned about that going into the game and the officiating did nothing to alleviate the concerns.

Burke's take on the officiating was beyond a joke. She clearly needs to take a second listen to how she repeatedly felt the need to explain the officials decision-making as the game progressed Sunday night. My view on her being an objective analyst completely changed this weekend, despite some of the comments on this forum suggesting that she was simply "cheerleading" for the team most likely to win. As vowelguy pointed out, it doesn't necessarily mean the outcome would be different, but the quality of officiating right now is simply difficult to stomach.
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
4,723
Reaction Score
4,670
It is the inconsistency that gets to me. What is called one time, is not called the next. In some games the officiating changes so drastically from the first half to the second, I swear somebody give the refs a pep-talk at half time "You aren't blowing the whistles enough. You have those things around your neck for a reason. Use them!"

I think most teams can deal with a game called tightly or called in the "play on" mode as long as it is done consistently from the start of the game to the end, and the standard is applied equally to both teams. I can only imagine how frustrating it must be to go out for the second half and all of sudden what wasn't called in the first half is being called in the second.

Just like everyone else, there may be personality issues with coaches or performance competition among officials. It cannot be much different than any other working environment. In the case of Dennis DeMayo, his friendship with Geno may, on an subconcious level, lead him to give the other team more benefit of the doubt and UConn no such courtesy as a way to prove his friendship with Geno doesn't impact his officiating. In fact, that is exactly what is happening. I have seen Dennis do other games, and think, on the whole he is a very good ref. Just not when he does UConn games. He should move to another conference, or recuse himself from doing UConn games because he and Geno have such a long, friendly history.
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
4,723
Reaction Score
4,670
I meant to say I loved the comment about tonight might be the first 3 hour national final game in history. Just one more reason why I will not be watching.
 
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
1,486
Reaction Score
614
It is the inconsistency that gets to me. What is called one time, is not called the next. In some games the officiating changes so drastically from the first half to the second, I swear somebody give the refs a pep-talk at half time "You aren't blowing the whistles enough. You have those things around your neck for a reason. Use them!"

I think most teams can deal with a game called tightly or called in the "play on" mode as long as it is done consistently from the start of the game to the end, and the standard is applied equally to both teams. I can only imagine how frustrating it must be to go out for the second half and all of sudden what wasn't called in the first half is being called in the second.

Just like everyone else, there may be personality issues with coaches or performance competition among officials. It cannot be much different than any other working environment. In the case of Dennis DeMayo, his friendship with Geno may, on an subconcious level, lead him to give the other team more benefit of the doubt and UConn no such courtesy as a way to prove his friendship with Geno doesn't impact his officiating. In fact, that is exactly what is happening. I have seen Dennis do other games, and think, on the whole he is a very good ref. Just not when he does UConn games. He should move to another conference, or recuse himself from doing UConn games because he and Geno have such a long, friendly history.

exactly. Inconsistency is a big problem. The semi final games on Sunday were night and day different how they were called.
 

VAMike23

The Virginian
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
8,512
Reaction Score
17,295
exactly. Inconsistency is a big problem. The semi final games on Sunday were night and day different how they were called.

What was your overall take on the 1st semi, cardfan? I probably made at least ten posts in the game thread that contained the word "war". While I have seen plenty of physical games where UCONN was involved (most WVU and ND games), I'm not sure I ever saw one at this level of intensity, played at altitude no less.
 

KnightBridgeAZ

Grand Canyon Knight
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
5,336
Reaction Score
9,115
I'm sorry, but I have to make a Dennis comment (in general). At one time Dennis may have been one of the best refs - like everyone else, I don't see enough games to know for sure. But I do see enough - over the past 16 years - to feel that Dennis' work has deteriorated.

Incidently, I am working on a spreadsheet of the assignments (quantity, conferences, etc.) done by the referees that worked over 75 games. Most are familiar names, and include Dennis. Will be a while for the results, will post when done.
 

ABachelor6CR

Time Traveler
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
360
Reaction Score
478
Jenkins: "Let's face it: In the women's Final Four, you don't know what's legal from one possession to another."

Jenkins: "You see missed calls and mistakes by men's NCAA refs. What you don't see is rugby on one end and badminton on the other. That's the women."

Jenkins: "Doris Burke and ESPN need to quit bailing out the atrocious officials."

Very true!! Doris needs to come down from her high horse. I use to like Doris, but lately I've come to despise her. Even though Kara Lawson played for Tennessee, she is very non bias even if it means giving UConn credit.....I wish more announcers were like Kara.

The one thing that always bothered me was when teams purposely foul and everyone says "You can't call them all" WHY NOT??? If its a foul then its a foul.......
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
2,915
Reaction Score
2,219
Jenkins: "You see missed calls and mistakes by men's NCAA refs. What you don't see is rugby on one end and badminton on the other. That's the women."
"Rugby on one end and badminton on the other." I love it!
 
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
1,486
Reaction Score
614
What was your overall take on the 1st semi, cardfan? I probably made at least ten posts in the game thread that contained the word "war". While I have seen plenty of physical games where UCONN was involved (most WVU and ND games), I'm not sure I ever saw one at this level of intensity, played at altitude no less.

a very, very physical Big East game, I thought they let a lot of go. I was sitting low near ND section (142) and I thought UConn was going to win in OT since it seemed you had the momentum. ND energy by their bench and fans was tight. A tough game to lose. no doubt. Was disappointed our game was called way more tight.
 

Olde Coach

Rip, Olde Coach
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
619
Reaction Score
1,004
The ref problem has been around for years. Nothing will change until bad refs and their supervisors (is it time for Jacobs to go?) are held accountable and good refs are better compensated.

This entire thread defines the obvious problem; but no one offers a useful solution.
Here is my take; and I have been arguing for this for many years:

Give the kids 6 fouls before ejection from the game -- instead of the current five fouls and out.

This doesn't assure that the reffing will be better. But it does assure that bad reffing will not have such a negative affect on the game.

The current rules give only 2 fouls in the first half of a game before most coaches will sit the "guilty" player for the remainder of the half. This too often puts one of the best and most critical players from a team out of the game -- where they are useless to their teammates and out of sight for the fans who have come to see them play.

I'll bet that a majority of the games in this year's (and most recent years) were significantly affected by having star players spending too much time on the bench with "foul problems." The first half is especially difficult for the players because they have not had enough time to figure out what the refs are going to call. What is really unfair to the players is that one ticky-tack call (by an often out of position ref) means that the player has to be "more careful" on defense, and play less aggressively than normal; and, of course, get benched by the coach after the 2nd foul.

This leaves players with two "free fouls" in the 2nd half -- and out of the game after the third foul. The same balance should apply to the first half.

People who argue against a six foul limit usually assert that the players will just commit more fouls (which isn't good for the game). I don't think this will often happen. All fouls incur a penalty (two free throws, or a one and one.) These fouls add up to the "bonus penalty"; and are thus not helpful to a team's goals. SO --
I don't think giving six fouls per player will increase the number of fouls. In fact, it may decrease the total fouls because players, who replace a teammate who has gone to the bench, start with zero fouls, don't expect to play a lot of minutes, and are thus more free to foul than the player who has gone to the bench with 2 fouls in the 1st half or 3/4 fouls in the second half.

Bottom line: giving six fouls helps keep the best players on the floor, provides some "cover" for the refs who make a bad call that might seriously impact a game, and provides a balanced number of fouls for each half (3 and 3).

I know this doesn't answer the problem of inept referees; but it lessens the damage that bad reffing imposes on a game.

The final argument for a change to six fouls is that it does not affect the basic rules and structure of the game. The NCAA can change the rule in a New York Minute. And College basketball coaches should mount a campaign for that to happen. It will please players, coaches, fans, ESPN, and (last but not least) the Referees who will have fewer people bitching about them after every game.

P.S. I offer this advice to the NCAA free of charge.
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
2,915
Reaction Score
2,219
Looks as though this reffing problem is affecting the championship game now. I know you'll all disagree with me, as did Doris and Mike, but I don't think that third foul on Peters was a foul.
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
984
Reaction Score
300
This entire thread defines the obvious problem; but no one offers a useful solution.
Here is my take; and I have been arguing for this for many years:

Give the kids 6 fouls before ejection from the game -- instead of the current five fouls and out.

This doesn't assure that the reffing will be better. But it does assure that bad reffing will not have such a negative affect on the game.

The current rules give only 2 fouls in the first half of a game before most coaches will sit the "guilty" player for the remainder of the half. This too often puts one of the best and most critical players from a team out of the game -- where they are useless to their teammates and out of sight for the fans who have come to see them play.

I'll bet that a majority of the games in this year's (and most recent years) were significantly affected by having star players spending too much time on the bench with "foul problems." The first half is especially difficult for the players because they have not had enough time to figure out what the refs are going to call. What is really unfair to the players is that one ticky-tack call (by an often out of position ref) means that the player has to be "more careful" on defense, and play less aggressively than normal; and, of course, get benched by the coach after the 2nd foul.

This leaves players with two "free fouls" in the 2nd half -- and out of the game after the third foul. The same balance should apply to the first half.

People who argue against a six foul limit usually assert that the players will just commit more fouls (which isn't good for the game). I don't think this will often happen. All fouls incur a penalty (two free throws, or a one and one.) These fouls add up to the "bonus penalty"; and are thus not helpful to a team's goals. SO --
I don't think giving six fouls per player will increase the number of fouls. In fact, it may decrease the total fouls because players, who replace a teammate who has gone to the bench, start with zero fouls, don't expect to play a lot of minutes, and are thus more free to foul than the player who has gone to the bench with 2 fouls in the 1st half or 3/4 fouls in the second half.

Bottom line: giving six fouls helps keep the best players on the floor, provides some "cover" for the refs who make a bad call that might seriously impact a game, and provides a balanced number of fouls for each half (3 and 3).

I know this doesn't answer the problem of inept referees; but it lessens the damage that bad reffing imposes on a game.

The final argument for a change to six fouls is that it does not affect the basic rules and structure of the game. The NCAA can change the rule in a New York Minute. And College basketball coaches should mount a campaign for that to happen. It will please players, coaches, fans, ESPN, and (last but not least) the Referees who will have fewer people bitching about them after every game.

P.S. I offer this advice to the NCAA free of charge.
Good points, OC. I think the six fouls would make for better games. I also liked Baggerbob's idea of additional refs at the end line. But the bottom line is, nothing is going to change until the NCCA and Barb Jacobs recognize that there even IS a problem...I don't think they see it, and if they do, they won't admit it. And as long as they have shills like Burke and ESPN, they'll continue on their merry way.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Online statistics

Members online
336
Guests online
2,667
Total visitors
3,003

Forum statistics

Threads
159,854
Messages
4,207,982
Members
10,076
Latest member
Mpjd2024


.
Top Bottom